List Mgmt. 2023 Trade & List Management discussion

[Fitzroy bears]

4 on the weekend.

2 more and he would have equalled out top tackler Kiddy.

This highlights how poor we were at that considering the pies had 5 of the top 6 tacklers on the day and one was their ruck.

Tom Mitchell and Sidebottom's tackling efforts show you don't have to be quick to apply pressure. Just have to want to do it

 

[StevoJenkins]

The Prestia suggestions are intriguing.
Any thoughts on what trades it would take to get him?
What sort of salary would he be need to be paid?

Depends on how much they want to get rid of him/how they rate his service to the club.
Kind of like the rumour that they were fine with Dusty leaving last year with their blessing.

Don't think Prestia would be worth much anyway.

I think this is true.
Zac could be pretty special in the middle from a defensive point of view if he is mature, motivated and driven enough? ( this is my question mark on him)

He has all the attributes to be that pressure player on the outside.
His pace and his ability to stick tackles against bigger bodies. Could be the move.

Keep seeing this suggestion over the past couple of seasons. Zac is an elite small forward and an alright mid. I don't think he is defensively minded enough as a mid, but he is as a forward.

That being said, we have mid coming back in Will who does things Bailey doesn't, and his brother will be joining up in time - there's also that other kid from the academy, that I can't remember the name of, who is touted as being another first round pick next year. Zac should only go into the middle in the case similar to this year where we are a mid down.

 

[StevoJenkins]

A lot of the posters on here having a melt forget what we have coming in both Will coming back and the draft next year. There are also players like Sharp who are sitting in the wings and are a preseason or two from getting there.

Only issue we have is tall forwards. We have a McStay sized, contested marking, traditional key forward hole and don't have a player to fill it. Daniher and Hippy are essentially the same player (same with Fullterton) - they won't be taking contested marks in a pack, only if they are in a one on one.

I know it sounds silly, but if the club wasn't going to offer the money McStay wanted, we should've thrown the kitchen sink at a Fogerty or Walker type, as this year we really missed that contested mark down the line. Don't know if anyone who can fill that role who's on the market at the moment. May have to have a look at a mature rookie.

Could also do with a change in lockdown defenders, as Starce has been down on form for a couple of seasons now. Don't know if he's been figured out by opposition teams or if teams across the league have set up their forward lines with ways past a lockdown defender, but he's been below his best 2020/2021 form. Maybe that's why we want that injured bloke from the Saints with the plan to move Starce to the midfield?

 

[Thomasno]

A lot of the posters on here having a melt forget what we have coming in both Will coming back and the draft next year. There are also players like Sharp who are sitting in the wings and are a preseason or two from getting there.

Only issue we have is tall forwards. We have a McStay sized, contested marking, traditional key forward hole and don't have a player to fill it. Daniher and Hippy are essentially the same player (same with Fullterton) - they won't be taking contested marks in a pack, only if they are in a one on one.

I know it sounds silly, but if the club wasn't going to offer the money McStay wanted, we should've thrown the kitchen sink at a Fogerty or Walker type, as this year we really missed that contested mark down the line. Don't know if anyone who can fill that role who's on the market at the moment. May have to have a look at a mature rookie.

Could also do with a change in lockdown defenders, as Starce has been down on form for a couple of seasons now. Don't know if he's been figured out by opposition teams or if teams across the league have set up their forward lines with ways past a lockdown defender, but he's been below his best 2020/2021 form. Maybe that's why we want that injured bloke from the Saints with the plan to move Starce to the midfield?

From memory we were real keen on Fogarty, and then he went and had a blinder of a last couple months of the season and Adelaide gave him a decent offer and he re-signed

 

[Nathan Barley]

If you don't think Daniher is a strong contested mark I'm not sure if you've watched any footy this year

 

[Nuggo]

If you don't think Daniher is a strong contested mark I'm not sure if you've watched any footy this year

Also tall forwards are coached to bring the ball to ground in a lot circumstances so from a contested marking point of view it looks worse than what it is.

 

[Mighty Lions]

A lot of the posters on here having a melt forget what we have coming in both Will coming back and the draft next year. There are also players like Sharp who are sitting in the wings and are a preseason or two from getting there.

Only issue we have is tall forwards. We have a McStay sized, contested marking, traditional key forward hole and don't have a player to fill it. Daniher and Hippy are essentially the same player (same with Fullterton) - they won't be taking contested marks in a pack, only if they are in a one on one.

I know it sounds silly, but if the club wasn't going to offer the money McStay wanted, we should've thrown the kitchen sink at a Fogerty or Walker type, as this year we really missed that contested mark down the line. Don't know if anyone who can fill that role who's on the market at the moment. May have to have a look at a mature rookie.

Could also do with a change in lockdown defenders, as Starce has been down on form for a couple of seasons now. Don't know if he's been figured out by opposition teams or if teams across the league have set up their forward lines with ways past a lockdown defender, but he's been below his best 2020/2021 form. Maybe that's why we want that injured bloke from the Saints with the plan to move Starce to the midfield?

I'm confused as to why a few posters like yourself believe we need to change up or tweak our forwad line. In the last 5 years we have either been the 1st or 2nd highest scoring team in the competition. If there were cracks in our set-up, there is no way we could have achieved those types of numbers given the delivery into the forward line was often like a grenade thrown out of a bunker.
I agree our tall forwards dont take as many contested marks as other teams but statistics show that hasn't stopped our potency when the ball is in our 50 arc. Joey finished 5th in the goal kicking, Charlie 6th and Hippy 15th!!! Other clubs would revel having three of their forwards in the top 15 goal kickers in any given season.
The main improvement we can make in our forward line coming into 2024 would be to improve the delivery into it...apart from that, we need to look further up the ground for upgrades or changing strategies when in attack.

 

[martinson]

We're light on for tall forwards if Hipwood or Daniher in particular get injured. And especially if that were for an extended period.

I can see the need for a hybrid type to either fill a role in the present set up or step in in the event the aforementioned happens. We don't seem to have anyone on our list at the moment ,presuming Fullarton leaves.

 

[T Rick]

Anyone got any insight into what is likely to happen with Zorks?
Would the Dev decision to stay or go be linked to Zorko retiring?

 

[martinson]

Anyone got any insight into what is likely to happen with Zorks?
Would the Dev decision to stay or go be linked to Zorko retiring?

Zorks wants to play on but the club hasn't supported or negated that wish as yet.

As much as I don't like saying it I think time's up . However we may see a role there for him through parts of the season depending on whatever other movements there are.

 

[Mighty Lions]

We're light on for tall forwards if Hipwood or Daniher in particular get injured. And especially if that were for an extended period.

I can see the need for a hybrid type to either fill a role in the present set up or step in in the event the aforementioned happens. We don't seem to have anyone on our list at the moment ,presuming Fullarton leaves.

Doubt Fullerton leaves...he either is delisted or offered another year.

Besides that, you dont bring in another tall forward who will demand high $ for coming and then play him in the 2's. Looking for someone already made isn't the way to go.

 

[Thomasno]

Zorks wants to play on but the club hasn't supported or negated that wish as yet.

As much as I don't like saying it I think time's up . However we may see a role there for him through parts of the season depending on whatever other movements there are.

I’d be okay giving him another year as long as it’s made abundantly clear he’s not guaranteed a best 22 spot. I don’t mind him coming in if he’s playing out of his skin, or as a sub etc; but I’d rather Dev (or another youngster) in that slot best 22 than him as he gets even older

 

[martinson]

Doubt Fullerton leaves...he either is delisted or offered another year.

Besides that, you dont bring in another tall forward who will demand high $ for coming and then play him in the 2's. Looking for someone already made isn't the way to go.

Well if Fullarton goes then there's no one there to fill the role.

So presuming he stays because there will in all likelihood come a time during the year when we need someone. I think we played Fort forward in one game last year but hmmmm.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Well if Fullarton goes then there's no one there to fill the role.

So presuming he stays because there will in all likelihood come a time during the year when we need someone. I think we played Fort forward in one game last year but hmmmm.

Gunston?

 

[martinson]

Gunston?

Do you want to know what I think ?

Yeah I forgot about him. No way he retires with a year left.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Gunston?

Agree...there are options but bringing in someone like some suggesrt isn't the answer the all the reasons tabled.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Depends on how much they want to get rid of him/how they rate his service to the club.
Kind of like the rumour that they were fine with Dusty leaving last year with their blessing.

Don't think Prestia would be worth much anyway.



Keep seeing this suggestion over the past couple of seasons. Zac is an elite small forward and an alright mid. I don't think he is defensively minded enough as a mid, but he is as a forward.

That being said, we have mid coming back in Will who does things Bailey doesn't, and his brother will be joining up in time - there's also that other kid from the academy, that I can't remember the name of, who is touted as being another first round pick next year. Zac should only go into the middle in the case similar to this year where we are a mid down.

When you say Zac is not defensively minded, wouldn't you say that is because he plays predominately as an attacking half forward and his role in the team does not demand that hunger on defence?
This is a genuine question. (Not trying to be an a$$)

I felt like we took steps as a collective to be more defensively minded but as individuals in a very attacking game plan, they still aren't fully committed to the defensive side of the game and that isn't just Zac, there are a few in that boat.

I would like to think that if pushed (with some tweaking in the gameplan and individual roles) and held to account, that players like Zac may make that leap.

I also like to think that if it's his mentality that is holding him back from making an impact defensively, that it can be changed through training and repetition. No better example then the Saints, now this is clearly too far the other way but highlights how mindsets in players can change quickly when given the impetus to do so.

I think if we do want win the flag next year, our defensive as individuals will need to shift a bit more and the gameplan/ roles will need some defensive tweaks.

This will take some courage to do, as the players and coaches may fear we will loose some of our natural attacking identity. Geelong's gameplan shift of 2021 to Premiership in 2022 is a great example of how this can work.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

That being said, we have mid coming back in Will who does things Bailey doesn't, and his brother will be joining up in time - there's also that other kid from the academy, that I can't remember the name of, who is touted as being another first round pick next year. Zac should only go into the middle in the case similar to this year where we are a mid down.

You make a valid point here too.

Maybe I am focusing in on changing individuals rather then letting them play their natural game and utilising the players we have coming back from injury and potential recruits who have those natural abilities as you say.

Edit: I still like to think there is scope for minor tweaks in gameplan and players mentality.

 

[twhowler]

Am I Robinson Crusoe in thinking we have not given Fort much of a chance to be a second ruck / third key forward?

Doesn't take a lot of big marks but hard to outmark.

Good set shot.

I think he has surprisingly good forward craft for a man of his size.

Keeps oscar fresh and hopefully avoids games like yesterday and melbourne at the mcg in which it felt like we barely had a ruck out there in the last quarter

We would lose some run but that should be slack the rest of the team can pick up. And our forward line would still have at least 4 non talls at all time, that's heaps to put on pressure on ground level.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Am I Robinson Crusoe in thinking we have not given Fort much of a chance to be a second ruck / third key forward?

Doesn't take a lot of big marks but hard to outmark.

Good set shot.

I think he has surprisingly good forward craft for a man of his size.

Keeps oscar fresh and hopefully avoids games like yesterday and melbourne at the mcg in which it felt like we barely had a ruck out there in the last quarter

We would lose some run but that should be slack the rest of the team can pick up. And our forward line would still have at least 4 non talls at all time, that's heaps to put on pressure on ground level.

Oscar started so well but ended up winning less than a third of ruck contests. Led clearances but with a disposal efficiency of 39% just kept handing it back. Also had 0 contested marks while Cox and Cameron had 5.

It's tough when we don't have a backup plan for our first ruck getting beaten

 

[martinson]

Oscar started so well but ended up winning less than a third of ruck contests. Led clearances but with a disposal efficiency of 39% just kept handing it back. Also had 0 contested marks while Cox and Cameron had 5.

It's tough when we don't have a backup plan for our first ruck getting beaten

I would've always gone with the 2 rucks but that seemed to go out the window from early on.

Not convinced we gave it enough of a chance.

 

[twhowler]

Oscar started so well but ended up winning less than a third of ruck contests. Led clearances but with a disposal efficiency of 39% just kept handing it back. Also had 0 contested marks while Cox and Cameron had 5.

It's tough when we don't have a backup plan for our first ruck getting beaten

I thought once the picked frampton we had cover to include fort - at least as sub. But we just never seem tactically minded in that way

 

[StevoJenkins]

If you don't think Daniher is a strong contested mark I'm not sure if you've watched any footy this year

Never said he wasn't, but when Collingwood clogged up entries in our forward line in packs in the latter half of the game, everything devolved into pack marks and our talls couldn't clunk it, theirs could.

I'm confused as to why a few posters like yourself believe we need to change up or tweak our forwad line. In the last 5 years we have either been the 1st or 2nd highest scoring team in the competition. If there were cracks in our set-up, there is no way we could have achieved those types of numbers given the delivery into the forward line was often like a grenade thrown out of a bunker.
I agree our tall forwards dont take as many contested marks as other teams but statistics show that hasn't stopped our potency when the ball is in our 50 arc. Joey finished 5th in the goal kicking, Charlie 6th and Hippy 15th!!! Other clubs would revel having three of their forwards in the top 15 goal kickers in any given season.
The main improvement we can make in our forward line coming into 2024 would be to improve the delivery into it...apart from that, we need to look further up the ground for upgrades or changing strategies when in attack.

I don't particularly care if it's a ruckman, defender, mid or forward who takes the contested marks, but when those long down the line kicks are done, Daniher needs to be there or there isn't someone reliably taking that mark. In a sense, those kicks play into how were playing last year with McStay in the side but, outside of Daniher, there isn't a player who is filling that gap.

That's both a personnel thing and a coaching thing. If the coaching portion of that changes, then we don't need to change anything. Give Rayner or Ah Chee a license to jump at those rather than rely on a tall to do it. However, the coaching panel is still asking for those kicks to be made and beating down the ball to ground for the smalls isn't cutting it.

When you say Zac is not defensively minded, wouldn't you say that is because he plays predominately as an attacking half forward and his role in the team does not demand that hunger on defence?
This is a genuine question. (Not trying to be an a$$)

I felt like we took steps as a collective to be more defensively minded but as individuals in a very attacking game plan, they still aren't fully committed to the defensive side of the game and that isn't just Zac, there are a few in that boat.

I would like to think that if pushed (with some tweaking in the gameplan and individual roles) and held to account, that players like Zac may make that leap.

I also like to think that if it's his mentality that is holding him back from making an impact defensively, that it can be changed through training and repetition. No better example then the Saints, now this is clearly too far the other way but highlights how mindsets in players can change quickly when given the impetus to do so.

I think if we do want win the flag next year, our defensive as individuals will need to shift a bit more and the gameplan/ roles will need some defensive tweaks.

This will take some courage to do, as the players and coaches may fear we will loose some of our natural attacking identity. Geelong's gameplan shift of 2021 to Premiership in 2022 is a great example of how this can work.

You're fine mate. Good question.

I think Zac is a one-way runner. That's probably the biggest issue. He uses all of his run to go forward, but then the ball gets turned over, or an intercept takes place, he is either gassed, takes it upon himself to feel frustration for his teammates or doesn't run back (not downing his effort as it's there, it's just something I've noticed).

The issue we had this season was that there was a Will Ashcroft sized crevice for the latter half of the season and Rayner, Dev and Bailey couldn't fill it. Zac and Rayner are much better forwards then they are mids.

Could Zac play in the midfield if given actual time there? Maybe. But, similar to the issue we have with our talls, we don't have too many AFL quality smalls. Take Zac out and who comes in? Lohman doesn't kick goals, Blake Coleman I haven't seen a lot of (I don't watch too much VFL) but the word is he hasn't come on as the club had hoped, and the rest of the smalls we play are either resting mids or mids who are not forwards (Lyons, Dev, Matho, etc.)

I would personally like to see Berry put in the middle and Sharp put on the wing, but that wasn't going to happen this season given how well Berry played throughout (when he got kicked to/we used the wing).

 

[Squizz89]

WCE List Manager:

 

[royboys4eva]

The West Coast List Manager seemed quietly confident they could get Dev. Sounds like they have had plenty of talks prior to the finals. I reckon he might be gone. Hope I'm wrong.