List Mgmt. 2023 Trade & List Management discussion

[Daniel_Rich]

Our forward unit was actually a lot stronger than the Pies' on Grand Final day. The Pies got 4 goals from Hill and 1 from Mihocek. We got 3 from Cameron, 3 from Daniher, 2 from Bailey, and 2 from McCarthy.

In contrast, we got a lot less from our midfield group compared to them. That's an issue (and everyone would love more goal-kicking mids) but likely has as much to do with the coaching/tactical battle as anything else. If we had managed to create space for and find Neale, Dunkley, Berry, whoever in the 40-50m range like they did with their mids, there's no reason they couldn't also have impacted the scoreboard.

 

[Thomasno]

Dodongo read on the AFL website that club's think Oliver is gettable.

Dodongo would send Rayner to Melbourne in a heart beat in any deal to claim Oliver.

Consider WHY Melbourne would be willing to give up Oliver, in the context of swirling rumours for most of the year.

Don’t want him anywhere near the club, not that we’d have the cap space anyway

 

[Nathan Barley]

On a few of the players being discussed here, my two cents:

Doedee - he is a fine player when he is fit but we should be using our money elsewhere. People are talking him up as a third tall defender without realising that he is only 187cm. He is a good mark but he is medium defender and not a third tall. This is the role currently played by Starc who he is not going to replace. Madden, Michael and Prior are all back up medium defender options who are actually taller than Doedee. Personally I really like what Madden could bring to the side given a decent run of games. Then there is Brain who came on exceptionally well in the reserves when he was moved back. He is 1cm shorter than Doedee and plays a similar type of game. The depth in our small / medium defensive unit is by far the best in the team and personally I cannot understand why we would likely be paying a premium to throw another player into the mix. At best he would be a slight incremental improvement for a bench spot and that is when he is available, which has not been much in recent years.

Mac Andrew - is still only 19 and has been playing as a defender for the GC. At that age the expectations for skinny talls is that they make virtually zero contribution and I actually think he has been better than that. He is still not strong in the body but he is a good mark despite what briz may think on this one. He averaged 5.2 marks a game this year and that is good given his age and body type. His athleticism is great and I do think he will fill out well as he develops. Personally I still prefer him as a mobile ruck who can drift forward but I am not ruling him out as a defender. He is so young he could still turn out to be anything.

Bailey - was actually a good two way runner before he was shifted forward and then suddenly he lost all motivation to defend even when he was shifted back into the middle. He can do it I just think the coaches need to rekindle his motivation to work defensively. The ceiling on him I believe is still very high if he ups his running power and he is given more midfield time. Overall this year I was not impressed with him through the middle but I still think he can do it.

Doedee plays above his height not unlike Howe does

 

[JasRulz63]

Doedee plays above his height not unlike Howe does

Hard to know how he's going to look post second ACL, but he's got a pretty good vertical leap from memory (and tested well at the combine).

 

[Nathan Barley]

Hard to know how he's going to look post second ACL, but he's got a pretty good vertical leap from memory (and tested well at the combine).

Can't recall too many recently significantly losing agility after an ACL. Definitely hasn't set Rayner back

 

[Squizz89]

The obvious concern I have with Doedee is the two knees and the reported 5 year deal we’ve had to offer to try and get him here. One more knee injury and one would think that’s getting towards career ending.

It’s a big investment and risk, in a position I’m not sure we’re overly deficient in?

 

[Mighty Lions]

Dodongo read on the AFL website that club's think Oliver is gettable.

Dodongo would send Rayner to Melbourne in a heart beat in any deal to claim Oliver.

Would love to see Oliver come to our club but not at the expense of Rayner.

Your previous posts slagging Rayner & others who still have significant improvement are so unjustified in my opinion. My memory isnt what it used to be let alone what it would be in another 3-4 years so I wont make you eat those words. However, plenty were saying the same about Petracca in his early years as look at what he has done to Melbourne.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Can't recall too many recently significantly losing agility after an ACL. Definitely hasn't set Rayner back

Skinner is one that comes to mind but not that many others....has he had acl's in both knees or justy the 1?

 

[Mr Ripper]

Skinner is one that comes to mind but not that many others....has he had acl's in both knees or justy the 1?

Bartlett.

Read somewhere it's both Doedee's knees.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Bartlett.

Read somewhere it's both Doedee's knees.

You're stretching the word recently

 

[Mr Ripper]

You're stretching the word recently

Anything after 1989 is recent to me.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Doedee - he is a fine player when he is fit but we should be using our money elsewhere. People are talking him up as a third tall defender without realising that he is only 187cm.

Listed as 190cm on the Crows site, not 187. But even if he was, it's the way they play, not what their stats are that are important.

 

[briztoon]

We played the last game in September and lost by 4 points which in the end could have gone either way. Not sure you can pinpoint any specific weakness that cost us that game......further to that, should we have won by 4 points, most posters would not even post comments as such.

Throughout the year we did outscore our opponents 17 to 6....not a bad stat to be grateful for.

As I said in my previous post, our forward line's defensive efforts in 2023 were well above average & better than most. In summary, our forward lines defensive efforts was a significant improvement from previous years and could easily be one of the reasons why we made the GF.

Taking contested marks is great (the only comment in your post I agree with) but just as important is bringing the ball to ground & stopping the intercept marks from the opposition. Leading in contested marks still doesn't guarantee winning games & doesnt guarantee our forward line would be better if that stat changed by looking for a player outside of who we already have & taking away our current advantage.

Dont agree with those last 3 comments one bit & there are certainly no stats backing that up.

Not sure you read my post fully. I didn’t make those 3 comments you don’t agree with. (I never mentioned or alluded to leading contested marks).

I did highlight areas where I believe we have deficiencies in our system, and how we’re often beaten in those areas.

And one of those points I made was our failure to a) bring the ball to ground from clearing kicks out of our defensive 50 down the line, because we are being out marked, and b) we don’t have an equal number of ground players when the ball does hit the ground in such instances.

I lost count of how many time Big O or Joe would look around in frustration as an opposition 3rd man would come across the front of a marking contest and take an uncontested mark in front of the contest down the line.

That’s on our small/medium forwards to be there to help Big O or Joe, or even be the third man taking the mark instead of the opposition.

 

[Quigley]

Listed as 190cm on the Crows site, not 187. But even if he was, it's the way they play, not what their stats are that are important.

Listed at 187 on footywire and I usually trust it more than a club site.

Doedee can take a nice mark but I do not see him as being able to go body on body with talls. I think he plays as a marking medium defender and not really anything else.

FWIW third tall defenders are the one position where there has been a lot of success drafting overage players. If we want one I think picking up a cheap quality defender out of the state leagues is the go.

 

[Elixuh]

Doedee is a risk but hasn’t lever done two and since then dominated. Could go either way but absolutely worth the risk if all we need to do if give up $$.

 

[McIvor]

Anything after 1989 is recent to me.

Pat Garner?

 

[Mighty Lions]

Not sure you read my post fully. I didn’t make those 3 comments you don’t agree with. (I never mentioned or alluded to leading contested marks).

I did highlight areas where I believe we have deficiencies in our system, and how we’re often beaten in those areas.

And one of those points I made was our failure to a) bring the ball to ground from clearing kicks out of our defensive 50 down the line, because we are being out marked, and b) we don’t have an equal number of ground players when the ball does hit the ground in such instances.

I lost count of how many time Big O or Joe would look around in frustration as an opposition 3rd man would come across the front of a marking contest and take an uncontested mark in front of the contest down the line.

That’s on our small/medium forwards to be there to help Big O or Joe, or even be the third man taking the mark instead of the opposition.

Thought I read your post correctly but who knows.

Not sure if you played the game yourself but footy is full of frustrations during any given time of the day depending on what works & what doesnt..as long as the game plan set by the coach's is followed as much as possible, s**t happens that you just can't control no matter what you want it to be personally.

Not giving this any more space or air to this now...we can agree to disagree.

 

[Sproj]

So in terms of the hypothetical of Rayner for Oliver, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Gotta be ruthless to win these things.

 

[JasRulz63]

Doedee is a risk but hasn’t lever done two and since then dominated. Could go either way but absolutely worth the risk if all we need to do if give up $$.

I think Gawn and Docherty have also both undergone two ACL recos.

 

[martinson]

I wonder if the Oliver rumour is just talk.

Re the contested marks in the forward line we had Oscar take a few recently but that didn't happen in the GF . Hipwood spilt a few he should've taken. We still managed to put up a respectable score. But a couple more grabs just to slow up their transition would've been handy.

I've been a believer in the 2 rucks since forever for our team but we haven't gone down that route. I'd like to see us give it a go next year depending on the makeup of the rest of the team.

 

[Nuggo]

Without any evidence I think the science behind ACL's has gotten a lot better. Would love to know the strike rate of a player returning and playing at a high level versus not returning for the last 5 years versus 20 years ago.

 

[twhowler]

Searched for doedee highlights.

Found this clip in 2021 interesting albeit bad opposition



His strength is reading the play and intercepting. What you don’t see here is he is an excellent kick. And moves the ball quickly. Also good when it hits the ground, which i think is our weakness in defence. Harris plus lester plus doedee would not work. Harris plus payne plus doedee could be excellent. Kiddy goes pretty well in the air as well.

He is not a third tall that can take a really big bloke. But how many teams play 3 big forwards now? Usually backfires - look at the dogs going uber tall.

My biggest concern would be him having done the other knee. But i think he fulfills a very specific need for us, albeit NOT a glaring one.

Wing i don’t think we need to trade for. Fletcher will be excellent. Sharp shows a lot of promise. Both ready to contribute next year.

Midfield is interested especially if dev leaves - he is our best defensive runner. So who replaces him? 2s watchers any thoughts on Tunstill as a mid / wing who runs / tackles well defensively?

 

[martinson]

Without any evidence I think the science behind ACL's has gotten a lot better. Would love to know the strike rate of a player returning and playing at a high level versus not returning for the last 5 years versus 20 years ago.

It used to be career ending back in the day. The majority of players seem to get back to or above prior levels of recent times.

 

[CarterS]

Hope we give Zorko another year, Harris and Hugh in particular spoke very strongly in favour of it.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Gold Coast tall asks for trade, set to return home

After winning back-to-back VFL goalkicking awards, Chris Burgess has requested a trade

www.afl.com.au

Looks like we won’t be getting Burgess either as key position depth