Training 2024 Pre-Season discussion

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CHAWKTS said:
I am convinced we will see Miers play up the ground this year - either wing or possibly even surprise us in the MF. He doesn’t kick goals anyway (so won’t miss that) and is a great distributor into the F50. Watching closely he is also a good at ground balls and contested possessions (above average in both) so he could be a different type of productive midfielder?

That frees up a spot for Mannago/Dempsey. Now Mannagh would play MF but think they will persist with Dempsey in the forward line? (I understand Rohan is battling injury over past couple of weeks which means they need Dempsey I think to be a bit of a backup?)
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This would make sense, but I wonder if they keep him in the same position as this season, since he's basically a 3rd wingman already, with the amount of running he does.
It seems pretty clear that Scott values players who can get back to help in defense, and at our best Miers as a half forward ends up in similar positions to most wingmen anyway.
It's not at all unusual to see him taking a mark around the defensive 50, and so then the question becomes what's the difference in playing him on a wing compared to where he usually plays? Because I'm not sure he adds a whole lot inside the defensive 50 defensively, and while his kicking is brilliantly creative a lot of the time, he's also prone to totally whiffing some, which would be infuriating coming out of defense.
 
CHAWKTS said:
I am convinced we will see Miers play up the ground this year - either wing or possibly even surprise us in the MF. He doesn’t kick goals anyway (so won’t miss that) and is a great distributor into the F50. Watching closely he is also a good at ground balls and contested possessions (above average in both) so he could be a different type of productive midfielder?

That frees up a spot for Mannago/Dempsey. Now Mannagh would play MF but think they will persist with Dempsey in the forward line? (I understand Rohan is battling injury over past couple of weeks which means they need Dempsey I think to be a bit of a backup?)
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Do you think there’s any real advantage to moving Miers to a wing? He averaged nearly 20 touches this year - I don’t expect he’d be much more prolific. Maybe gets us out of trouble in the backline a bit more often, at the cost of a few score assists?

That “high half forward” role is basically a (mostly) forward half midfielder anyway - not sure the move has any benefit, and risks making him less effective IMO.


(Plus Dempsey, Mannagh, Knevitt all fighting Duncan and Tuohy for those spots - seems to be a role where we have good depth at the mo.)
 
Footy Smarts said:
Holmes just averaged exactly the same number of clearances per game as Danger in his 3rd season. Should Danger have never been played as an inside mid again either?
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And he was ahead of Bruhn in average disposals, clearances, and contested possessions, and Holmes’ third season in 2023 compares pretty well statwise to Guthrie’s fourth (and first as a midfielder) in 2014. Will keep being developed as an inside mid unless he’s pushed out by Knevitt/Clark/etc IMO.
 

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numbwombat said:
Do you think there’s any real advantage to moving Miers to a wing? He averaged nearly 20 touches this year - I don’t expect he’d be much more prolific. Maybe gets us out of trouble in the backline a bit more often, at the cost of a few score assists?

That “high half forward” role is basically a (mostly) forward half midfielder anyway - not sure the move has any benefit, and risks making him less effective IMO.


(Plus Dempsey, Mannagh, Knevitt all fighting Duncan and Tuohy for those spots - seems to be a role where we have good depth at the mo.)
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It moves him to a more accountable role. If he can continue doing with the ball what he is doing with a more active direct opponent, we may also get the benefits of using the HFF in a different way.
 
numbwombat said:
Do you think there’s any real advantage to moving Miers to a wing? He averaged nearly 20 touches this year - I don’t expect he’d be much more prolific. Maybe gets us out of trouble in the backline a bit more often, at the cost of a few score assists?

That “high half forward” role is basically a (mostly) forward half midfielder anyway - not sure the move has any benefit, and risks making him less effective IMO.


(Plus Dempsey, Mannagh, Knevitt all fighting Duncan and Tuohy for those spots - seems to be a role where we have good depth at the mo.)
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I don’t think there is an advantage… miers essentially just uses his tank to roam freely up and down the ground linking up as he sees fit. His huge endurance and reading of the play is his attribute.

I can’t see how moving him to a wing would enhance his output on a HFF he already has.

I would rather use our two wingers as players with pace and acceleration to burn running away from stoppages and into the open as opposed to an endurance beast.
 
geelong_crazy26 said:
I don’t think there is an advantage… miers essentially just uses his tank to roam freely up and down the ground linking up as he sees fit. His huge endurance and reading of the play is his attribute.

I can’t see how moving him to a wing would enhance his output on a HFF he already has.

I would rather use our two wingers as players with pace and acceleration to burn running away from stoppages and into the open as opposed to an endurance beast.
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I agree he's playing Varcoe's old role and doing it well.
 
numbwombat said:
Do you think there’s any real advantage to moving Miers to a wing? He averaged nearly 20 touches this year - I don’t expect he’d be much more prolific. Maybe gets us out of trouble in the backline a bit more often, at the cost of a few score assists?

That “high half forward” role is basically a (mostly) forward half midfielder anyway - not sure the move has any benefit, and risks making him less effective IMO.


(Plus Dempsey, Mannagh, Knevitt all fighting Duncan and Tuohy for those spots - seems to be a role where we have good depth at the mo.)
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Possibly…although there are some differences in that the wing does go deeper into defence to give some rebounds too (Although at times I admit I can’t tell the difference!). I actually think they might try miers in the midfield proper. He is actually good in the contest (funny enough) with his smarts and quick decision making.

I might be wrong but reckon they will think he is more replacable in the forward line (most of those names you mention - except Knevitt or Duncan - are natural HHF as well)

Going to be interesting to watch
 
geelong_crazy26 said:
I don’t think there is an advantage… miers essentially just uses his tank to roam freely up and down the ground linking up as he sees fit. His huge endurance and reading of the play is his attribute.

I can’t see how moving him to a wing would enhance his output on a HFF he already has.

I would rather use our two wingers as players with pace and acceleration to burn running away from stoppages and into the open as opposed to an endurance beast.
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You might be right. But I think they are going to want to give Dempsey and Mannagh a crack and for them the best spot is HHF. I just think Miers has more to offer through the middle. I agree that the wing is less radical (and therefore not really needed as a change) but if he adapts his skills to MF that could be a game changer? Who knows
 
Lana said:
It moves him to a more accountable role. If he can continue doing with the ball what he is doing with a more active direct opponent, we may also get the benefits of using the HFF in a different way.
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That would be the logic of the change. Can we get more out of him in a tougher and more dangerous spot (I know how much you love him and I am behind you on that bandwagon)…and opens up a forward position to try someone (or something) new.

May not work but I would not be shocked if they try it in preseason. (I know he wants to have a crack)
 
geelong_crazy26 said:
I don’t think there is an advantage… miers essentially just uses his tank to roam freely up and down the ground linking up as he sees fit. His huge endurance and reading of the play is his attribute.

I can’t see how moving him to a wing would enhance his output on a HFF he already has.

I would rather use our two wingers as players with pace and acceleration to burn running away from stoppages and into the open as opposed to an endurance beast.
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Tend to agree geelong_crazy26
His attributes play nicely into his current role. His kick is limited but it suits how he’s playing at the moment.
I think Holmes/Knevitt/Dempsey are better wing choices , particularly as they are far better marking options and still have a combination of pace and endurance with more penetration in their kicks.
 
CHAWKTS said:
You might be right. But I think they are going to want to give Dempsey and Mannagh a crack and for them the best spot is HHF. I just think Miers has more to offer through the middle. I agree that the wing is less radical (and therefore not really needed as a change) but if he adapts his skills to MF that could be a game changer? Who knows
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Miers is perhaps an illustration of how traditional positions no longer apply in the modern game. His ’tank’ allows him to virtually play the whole ground. As a ‘HFF‘ he ties up a backman and complicates structuring for the opposition. His goal sense and ability to assist helps as well.
Also, if he were on a ‘wing’, he may be neutralised a bit more by an opposition gut runner.
 
CHAWKTS said:
That would be the logic of the change. Can we get more out of him in a tougher and more dangerous spot (I know how much you love him and I am behind you on that bandwagon)…and opens up a forward position to try someone (or something) new.

May not work but I would not be shocked if they try it in preseason. (I know he wants to have a crack)
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I'm not going to claim him as one of mine, look far enough into my post history and you'll find plenty of times I wanted to punt him, especially when he was a speciallist goal sneak. Attribute wise he is a very odd player. His remarkable footy brain and large tank hides a lot of his other deficencies. Credit to him he had reinvent himself, from about the halfway point of 2022 until now his efficency has been remarkable (something like 30% higher then the expected player).

I've been wondering if he is our forward version of Stewart, with the unrecorded work of teammates being used to free him up to do what he does best. Not a criticism of either of them, it would be a gameplan thing. The coaching staff trying to min-max our strengths, but it helps makes their numbers look good. It can be hard to visualise what was lost to make it happen, but given we aren't winning, it wouldn't be unexpected to see us try something new.

Which is why I'd be interesting to see if he can maintain his production as a wingmen and to see what the player he goes head to head with does. His tank is like an admission ticket but I don't see his natural attributes as being suited for a wingman. You need some mix of pace, contested marking and kicking penetration, otherwise you can be a bit of a momentum killer.

I can't shake the feeling that his current spot as a high half forward is best for him. Mannagh also feels like a natural High Half Forward (he looking like he enjoys bursting into space over the top), quite redundant to have both. Might mean Mannagh plays VFL until injuries create opportunity. If the club needs Miers to do something else it could hurt his numbers. So much depends on how we're trying to play. Direct-indirect. Counter attack vs build up. Kicking-Handballing, corridor vs wing, long kicking vs short. Just rather Holmes on the wing full time, Blicavs if we could afford it or even Knevitt if he in in the 22. Given that it is possible that we'd play a game with none of those three going near the wing it could mean Miers gets the call as the most appropriate player avaialble.
 

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Re Miers thought bubble I accept that there is a lot of logic Lana Pollywaffle Farmer2Goggin and others that he is best left where he is. And I suspect you are all correct - although I will watch the pre season to see if they play around with him. Not so much on the wing but in the centre square. Although I am probably looking too hard to something new
 
CHAWKTS said:
Re Miers thought bubble I accept that there is a lot of logic Lana Pollywaffle Farmer2Goggin and others that he is best left where he is. And I suspect you are all correct - although I will watch the pre season to see if they play around with him. Not so much on the wing but in the centre square. Although I am probably looking too hard to something new
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Cheers CHAWKTS
One of the aspects of the Geelong BF forum I cherish is the to and fro of various informed (mostly😛) opinions from a variety of smart and passionate Cats posters.
Keeps a grumpy old ex coach like myself occupied and out of trouble😁
 
Footy Smarts said:
It's unlikely. But you would've found plenty of similar opinions about Guthrie in 2018-19.

I reckon in 2020 O'Connor was considered a smoky for a back pocket spot at one point (obviously with the "you don't get selected in your first good season" rule he was never actually a chance).
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Bowes showed a lot in the guts against a Bulldogs team playing for a finals spot in the last game of the season, to the point where I really hope we put him in there next season. Looked good with 25 disposals, had the best disposal efficiency of any midfielder with over 20 disposals, some centre and stoppage clearances.
 
And_ROOS said:
Bowes showed a lot in the guts against a Bulldogs team playing for a finals spot in the last game of the season, to the point where I really hope we put him in there next season. Looked good with 25 disposals, had the best disposal efficiency of any midfielder with over 20 disposals, some centre and stoppage clearances.
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We’ve no doubt identified MF as a must get back to being an elite group in order to contend again.
Bowes could be important as is Danger/Guthrie/Atkins and Bruhn. Blitz will continue to do Blitz things.

In terms of pure mids you would hope some of Stevens/ Clark/ Hardie and Willis push into that group.
From the other young more versatile guys let’s hope Knevitt and Dempsey push for best 22 and can boost the MF rotation on occasions.
I think we’re aiming to build a very flexible group that bats very deep👍
 
This was a quote from an article written about Bowes in the Geelong Advertiser in 2022. It's why I would like Bowes tried in the midfield more next year especially with a full preseason and hopefully no injuries.


A player who captained the Allies under-18 side was once touted as a potential No. 1 draft pick. He slid to 10 because of his Academy links that gave Gold Coast first crack and was having leadership meetings with Hawthorn great Luke Hodge.

He was seen as captain material. The likes of former Suns assistant Dean Solomon said he had never seen anyone improve as quickly as Bowes did in his second year where he thrived in the midfield, matching up against the likes of Patrick Dangerfield, Patrick Cripps and Marcus Bontempelli.

Injuries saw him shift back to halfback in his third year and Bowes has struggled to claw his way back into an engine room that includes the likes of Touk Miller, David Swallow, Noah Anderson and Matt Rowell.

Those closest to Bowes believe they saw the writing on the wall midway through 2021 when Bowes was named in many rolling All-Australian sides but didn’t feature in the club’s top 10 best and fairest count at the same period.
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To me, that reads like he was a highly talented jnr that hasn't quite reached his potential yet. A chunk of games in the middle early next year could be a chance to break out and become a decent contributor for us there. He is also 25 years old so the right age bracket to were we're lite on and about to hit his prime years.
 
CHAWKTS said:
Re Miers thought bubble I accept that there is a lot of logic Lana Pollywaffle Farmer2Goggin and others that he is best left where he is. And I suspect you are all correct - although I will watch the pre season to see if they play around with him. Not so much on the wing but in the centre square. Although I am probably looking too hard to something new
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I think he's too good to continue playing in the goal assist position. If he's not going to kick goals himself he should play midfield
 
geelong_crazy26 said:
I don’t think there is an advantage… miers essentially just uses his tank to roam freely up and down the ground linking up as he sees fit. His huge endurance and reading of the play is his attribute.

I can’t see how moving him to a wing would enhance his output on a HFF he already has.

I would rather use our two wingers as players with pace and acceleration to burn running away from stoppages and into the open as opposed to an endurance beast.
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100%. I still think him and close have more improvement in them - more goals.

Oisin_the_Goat said:
I think he's too good to continue playing in the goal assist position. If he's not going to kick goals himself he should play midfield
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Disagree. Doesn't have the contested game to play midfield. His current position let's him roam between the arcs and use his tank to best affect.
 
Warhorse said:
100%. I still think him and close have more improvement in them - more goals.


Disagree. Doesn't have the contested game to play midfield. His current position let's him roam between the arcs and use his tank to best affect.
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Agreed - I don't think he has 'the game' either.

Sometimes it ain't best to fix it if it ain't broke.
 
numbwombat said:
And he was ahead of Bruhn in average disposals, clearances, and contested possessions, and Holmes’ third season in 2023 compares pretty well statwise to Guthrie’s fourth (and first as a midfielder) in 2014. Will keep being developed as an inside mid unless he’s pushed out by Knevitt/Clark/etc IMO.
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The difference between Holmes and the players you compare him to is his elite running ability on the outside. He might have the ability to burst from stoppage, but I feel his strengths are running his opponents ragged on a wing.
 
Footy Smarts said:
Reports of his demise are greatly exaggerated.
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