Training 2024 Pre-Season discussion

[Pure_Ownage]

It’s not neales second season it’s his fourth season coming up, and his three games in 2023 averaged 0.5 goals a game and 7 touches. Not sure what is so controversial that his output needs to improve or he will be dropped.

We are not carrying a key forward who can’t average a goal a game and gets 7 touches for very long in his fourth season of AFL. This really shouldn’t be controversia

I dont broadly disagree with your comments that neale needs to do more if hes going to make it (although i think less than 10 games is too small a sample size for a kpf to call it) but you do realise savs stats for his first 4 years the averages were about the same or worse.
Its not uncommon for later pickes kpfs to be slow burns at all.

 

[Hinkley29]

It’s not neales second season it’s his fourth season coming up, and his three games in 2023 averaged 0.5 goals a game and 7 touches. Not sure what is so controversial that his output needs to improve or he will be dropped.

We are not carrying a key forward who can’t average a goal a game and gets 7 touches for very long in his fourth season of AFL. This really shouldn’t be controversial

Neale’s development has been impacted by injuries and lack of opportunities.

Riewoldt in his second season was further developed than Neale was in his third year.

Trying to make any meaningful analysis of Neales ability based on 4.5 total career games is ridiculous.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Neale’s development has been impacted by injuries and lack of opportunities.

Riewoldt in his second season was further developed than Neale was in his third year.

Trying to make any meaningful analysis of Neales ability based on 4.5 total career games is ridiculous.

It’s not ridiculous to suggest what he has shown at the level so far is not up to standard and that he will not be gifted games performing to that standard for a season after four years in an AFL system.

Your chain of thought reads along the lines of Neale does not need to perform to a standard than is AFL football across his first dozen or so games of AFL and I entirely disagree. He is coming into his fourth AFL season and he absolutely needs to perform to level that warrants selection. Unless we are a bottom club without other options he will have to earn it and keep it.

N ablett only played 11 games his first two years then burst onto the scene his third and held his spot all year. This idea you have that players need to be gifted games to then turn into decent footy players is wrong. You can absolutely develop your craft in the VFL and through training and pre seasons. You just seem to be hunting for excuses

 

[bombersboy]

Neale’s development has been impacted by injuries and lack of opportunities.

Riewoldt in his second season was further developed than Neale was in his third year.

Trying to make any meaningful analysis of Neales ability based on 4.5 total career games is ridiculous.

I disagree. There are a lot of players who get less time on a list and less games. Whyte for example had 2 years and 1 game and a call was made on him. Due to his size and the lack of key forward rivals Shannon will probably get offered another 1 or 2 years., but a player going into his fourth year is going to get some scrutiny.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I dont broadly disagree with your comments that neale needs to do more if hes going to make it (although i think less than 10 games is too small a sample size for a kpf to call it) but you do realise savs stats for his first 4 years the averages were about the same or worse.
Its not uncommon for later pickes kpfs to be slow burns at all.

Don’t disagree. I just don’t get this idea that if he performs like he has at AFL level so far that he will be selected. He won’t.

 

[Vdubs]

84kgs and 189cm is massive for a 15-16 year old.

I just think the people talking about him having an immediate impact are dreaming. And there are a lot around here and in the media thinking that.

Even if he turns into a superstar Tom Green played 6 games in his first year, Cripps 3, Kennedy was traded for almost nothing and Watson was nearly delisted. The big inside mids take time.

That'll be especially true for a guy coming off an ACL who was probably 10kg overweight. This year should be as much about getting his body right and learning his craft as anything.

Petracca was 186, 92 at his draft. Talent is the biggest factor for all these players, plus hard work. Bartel was always stocky and slow, but a great mark, clever, and developed an impeccable work ethic- even he took time to realise what he had.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Shannon was tried as a defender in the VFL early on and he was all at sea. No chance as a defender.

Not sure I agree that he's behind where Sav was as a forward. Like you said his kicking is better and I think he works with other forwards to a degree Sav never demonstrated. I don't think I see the same contested marking weakness that you see. He's behind Sav on that but I don't think it's awful.

He may not make it, but I think he's a shot and honestly I think we should be worrying about midfield first.

Post-Script addition: let's see the leader board for average contested marks in the 2023 afl season

 

[bellpark]

Saw Neale live in Adelaide v Port. Think Stanley went out at half time. he was very competitive in the forward line in the first half and then in the second half played all over the place and was pretty impressive with his effort. The all at sea line did not apply to that game. He looked like a great prospect on the development road.

 

[Eddynukes]

Saw Neale live in Adelaide v Port. Think Stanley went out at half time. he was very competitive in the forward line in the first half and then in the second half played all over the place and was pretty impressive with his effort. The all at sea line did not apply to that game. He looked like a great prospect on the development road.

If you're talking about the 2022 game, I'm pretty sure he was the sub and didn't play the first half (came on straight into the ruck for Stanley), so you might be misremembering that part.

For the record, I thought his effort as a 2nd gamer (I think he may have played a game before that?) playing in the ruck was decent in the 2nd half, but we got absolutely flogged in the middle in that 3rd quarter when he came on (in no small part due to the difference in quality between Stanley and him), even if the effort was good.
That was the game where we were miles ahead at half time, then they came rushing back to take the lead, before we ran over the top of them (and Atkins played a ridiculous last quarter and made his comment about needing to play well to avoid the VFL).


For what it's worth, I think Neale looks pretty promising, but I think even comparing him to players like Hawkins, Riewoldt, Curnow is just so unnecessary. He has the tools to be a very serviceable player (maybe even more than that), but it's a bit much to compare him to some of the best modern day key forwards, isn't it?
And writing off a player after 5 AFL games is just ridiculous. Would have thought we'd seen enough Geelong players come through over the last few years who started pretty slowly to dispel that sort of talk.

 

[bellpark]

If you're talking about the 2022 game, I'm pretty sure he was the sub (and came on straight into the ruck for Stanley), so you might be misremembering that part.

For the record, I thought his effort as a 2nd gamer (I think he may have played a game before that?) playing in the ruck was decent in the 2nd half, but we got absolutely flogged in the middle in that 3rd quarter when he came on (in no small part due to the difference in quality between Stanley and him), even if the effort was good.
That was the game where we were miles ahead at half time, then they came rushing back to take the lead, before we ran over the top of them (and Atkins played a ridiculous last quarter and made his comment about needing to play well to avoid the VFL).


For what it's worth, I think Neale looks pretty promising, but I think even comparing him to players like Hawkins, Riewoldt, Curnow is just so unnecessary. He has the tools to be a very serviceable player (maybe even more than that), but it's a bit much to compare him to some of the best modern day key forwards, isn't it?
And writing off a player after 5 AFL games is just ridiculous. Would have thought we'd seen enough Geelong players come through over the last few years who started pretty slowly to dispel that sort of talk.

You are absolutely right - it was 2022. The points you make are fair and insightful - let's see how he goes.

 

[Eddynukes]

You are absolutely right - it was 2022. The points you make are fair and insightful - let's see how he goes.

Would have been a great game to see live though, that 4th quarter was unreal to watch on TV

 

[bellpark]

You are absolutely right - it was 2022. The points you make are fair and insightful - let's see how he goes.

That last quarter was when Tom Atkins became the leader we needed

 

[Pollywaffle]

That last quarter was when Tom Atkins became the leader we needed

Best captain we’ll never have..

 

[Burtyl78]

Best captain we’ll never have..

I personally thought Atkins should have been captain this year

 

[Burtyl78]

Neale looked better when he had more weight on him

 

[Vdubs]

I personally thought Atkins should have been captain this year

Interesting.
If not Danger, I wanted Blicavs

 

[Burtyl78]

Atkins to me gets us going in the middle, Danger does it anyway, 2 for one deal

 

[Eddynukes]

It's tough, because we don't see how things are in behind the scenes, but the selection of Dangerfield as captain did kind of feel like the default choice (rather than necessarily the right choice).
I think we probably put too much weight on how much impact the captain has on on-field performance though, given the experience we have across the board. And having Danger for a few years to take the pressure off the next captain (so they're not following Selwood) makes some sense.

The really interesting decision is who gets it when Dangerfield retires. Could be Stewart, given his new extension, but we don't really have any obvious contenders in the mid-20s sort of bracket. Atkins could feasibly get in then, if he maintains this level of performance.

 

[bombersboy]

Not sure I agree that he's behind where Sav was as a forward. Like you said his kicking is better and I think he works with other forwards to a degree Sav never demonstrated. I don't think I see the same contested marking weakness that you see. He's behind Sav on that but I don't think it's awful.

He may not make it, but I think he's a shot and honestly I think we should be worrying about midfield first.

Post-Script addition: let's see the leader board for average contested marks in the 2023 afl season

View attachment 1882773

End of his 3rd year Esava had played 28 games, kicked 22 goals 22 behinds so 44 shots on goal, 79 marks 244 Disposals, 187 Hit Outs

End of his 3rd season Shannon's stats are 5 games, 1 goal 2 behinds, 15 marks, 34 disposals, 33 Hit outs

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Saw Neale live in Adelaide v Port. Think Stanley went out at half time. he was very competitive in the forward line in the first half and then in the second half played all over the place and was pretty impressive with his effort. The all at sea line did not apply to that game. He looked like a great prospect on the development road.

I don’t like sounding like the villain back and forth being Mr negative Nancy… I will be thrilled to see him do well and have no agenda against any player. I find it odd when fans do get like that.

He doesn’t have to set the world on fire to justify his spot. Just average 1-2 goals a game and remain competitive and get to plenty of contests and prevent intercept marks.

I think that is a very realistic goal for 2024.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

End of his 3rd year Esava had played 28 games, kicked 22 goals 22 behinds so 44 shots on goal, 79 marks 244 Disposals, 187 Hit Outs

End of his 3rd season Shannon's stats are 5 games, 1 goal 2 behinds, 15 marks, 34 disposals, 33 Hit outs

All I get from that is that Sav has played and Neale has not

 

[Kobe Gryant]

All I get from that is that Sav has played and Neale has not

Even with the lessened gametime, I'm infinitely more certain on Neale making it than I ever was with Sav, and I doubt I'm the only one here who feels that way.

Whether that's a complement to Neale, or an indictment on Sav...I'm not sure, but it's food for thought.

For the sake of argument, let's just say we attract somebody like JUH, or draft someone like him ourselves with a first round pick in the next year or two.

I'm pretty confident Neale can play that second key forward/ruck role to a very high standard, and be the second banana in a premiership side.

Even with one of the greatest key forwards of all time in Hawkins as his partner in crime, I never felt like Sav could play that role in a flag winning team, and I think that's a pretty popular sentiment on here.

Admittedly, we did go close a couple times...but he was a flash in the pan for a couple games late in 2019, and then out of the side in the 2020 run, with the majority on here calling for him to be dropped on the occasions he did play.

I don't know if Neale does have a recent comparison, as every player is unique, with their own set of circumstances for why they are/aren't playing.

The closest would probably be Rory Lobb, or Eric Hipwood...but even they're not perfect comparisons.

What I do know though, is he isn't Sav, and we're waiting our time a bit when comparing the two.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Even with the lessened gametime, I'm infinitely more certain on Neale making it than I ever was with Sav, and I doubt I'm the only one here who feels that way.

Whether that's a complement to Neale, or an indictment on Sav...I'm not sure, but it's food for thought.

For the sake of argument, let's just say we attract somebody like JUH, or draft someone like him ourselves with a first round pick in the next year or two.

I'm pretty confident Neale can play that second key forward/ruck role to a very high standard, and be the second banana in a premiership side.

Even with one of the greatest key forwards of all time in Hawkins as his partner in crime, I never felt like Sav could play that role in a flag winning team, and I think that's a pretty popular sentiment on here.

Admittedly, we did go close a couple times...but he was a flash in the pan for a couple games late in 2019, and then out of the side in the 2020 run, with the majority on here calling for him to be dropped on the occasions he did play.

I don't know if Neale does have a recent comparison, as every player is unique, with their own set of circumstances for why they are/aren't playing.

The closest would probably be Rory Lobb, or Eric Hipwood...but even they're not perfect comparisons.

What I do know though, is he isn't Sav, and we're waiting our time a bit when comparing the two.

Sav I had big wraps on early… had a lot of the raw attributes you look for.

Power, speed, strong hands, strength and athleticism. He just simply never developed any game awareness. Very dumb footballer in the end who just couldn’t read the play or get into dangerous spots.

He suffers from majak daw syndrome… very promising athletically gifted person who just couldn’t develop a footy nous.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Sav I had big wraps on early… had a lot of the raw attributes you look for.

Power, speed, strong hands, strength and athleticism. He just simply never developed any game awareness. Very dumb footballer in the end who just couldn’t read the play or get into dangerous spots.

He suffers from majak daw syndrome… very promising athletically gifted person who just couldn’t develop a footy nous.

All true, but that's exactly why you can't put your faith in those guys.

He's all icing and no cake. All those attributes you mention are awesome, but it means nothing when you're missing the most important ingredient: Knowing how to play the game.

It does frustrate me a little bit, as there's thousands of footballers across the country who may lack those natural gifts, but they can just play footy. That's the most important thing in this game, and it feels like we're getting further away from it as an industry.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

All true, but that's exactly why you can't put your faith in those guys.

He's all icing and no cake. All those attributes you mention are awesome, but it means nothing when you're missing the most important ingredient: Knowing how to play the game.

It does frustrate me a little bit, as there's thousands of footballers across the country who may lack those natural gifts, but they can just play footy. That's the most important thing in this game, and it feels like we're getting further away from it as an industry.

Exactly. I feel like football is going towards obsessing over athletes as compared to players. And I feel like there is a deliberate strategy at the moment with the top half dozen draftees that their agents are telling them not to participate in the national draft combine… each year the top half dozen seem to come up with mystery injuries all of a sudden and are a no show… that is pre planned.

I get it… why would they show up?? The only thing that can come of it is hurting their brand. They have nothing to gain by testing.

The combine only helps those who have a point to prove, not those who are already locked in top prospects.