Training 2024 Pre-Season discussion

[Jhye Clark 13]

We're really spending this much time focusing on an 18yr olds - who hasn't played a game - supposed lack of pace.

Get a grip.

 

[Reg Hickey]

It probably applies anywhere outside about pick 25 and there's a decent sample of failures from then on. Apart from father sons (Kennedy and Watson) and mature agers (Priddis, Menegola) I'm struggling to think of players after pick 25 recruited as big bodied slowish mids who have made an impact at AFL level.

Yet every year there's a slider who gets obsessed over. We've had our share with Jansen, Constable and now Stevens.

I really hope he defies the odds and makes it. But even if he does become a Kennedy or Watson type which would be amazing they were slow burns so he probably wouldn't debut this year anyway.

Zach Merrett
Toby McLean
James Worpel
Chad Warner
Dane Swan
Cameron Ling (arguably recruited as a forward but played as a big-bodied slow mid)
Luke Parker (been mentioned already)
Nat Fyfe was pick 20, so not far off

 

[Lana]

Zach Merrett
Toby McLean
James Worpel
Chad Warner
Dane Swan
Cameron Ling (arguably recruited as a forward but played as a big-bodied slow mid)
Luke Parker (been mentioned already)
Nat Fyfe was pick 20, so not far off

Goes back to what is the definition of big bodied midfielder. Half of those were around 180cm at draft.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

In the game last year v Collingwood Neale playing ruck/ but forward mainly had 10 disposals. I think it was this game he missed two quite gettable goals by his standard. He is a very good kick...I turned to my kids when he was lining up for the first shot in this game from 40m..said watch this! He missed. Then he repeated the dose a little later missing everything.

He took 3 overhead marks..which surprised me. Not big marks but in one on ones. The ball came in to his advantage.. different to VFL.

If his stats had read 10 disposals, 12 HO and 2 goals it would speak of a promising young ruck/forward.

V the eventual premiers.

Let's see.

We will know by end 2024.

EDIT: the game where Neale missed the two goals was v Bulldogs. He actually kicked one and missed two set shots. Played mainly up forward. In checking the Collingwood game stats the stats above are correct. Watching a replay of highlights Neale hand balled to Cameron in general play for one goal and passed another to a team mate for an easy goal.

Still lets see.

On SM-G930U using BigFooty.com mobile app

I remember the Collingwood game and being impressed with how he worked in unselfishly with Cameron

 

[BORIS332]

Zach Merrett
Toby McLean
James Worpel
Chad Warner
Dane Swan
Cameron Ling (arguably recruited as a forward but played as a big-bodied slow mid)
Luke Parker (been mentioned already)
Nat Fyfe was pick 20, so not far off

Merrett, McLean or Warner are neither big bodied nor slow. Willem Drew, Matt Crouch and Jack Graham may be good examples. Jordan Dawson might fit the bill, though he wasn't really a slider.

 

[small 4wards]

What are people's thoughts on our best forward lineup for 2024?
I feel like the guaranteed players (when fit) would likely be:
Cameron, Hawkins, Miers, Stengle, Close and Rohan with O. Henry on the interchange with Dempsey, Mannagh, Neale (in any order) the most likely to break in with injuries or a respective slump/ascent in form.
I guess I'm just wondering if it's the latter and an ascent from one of the three, who do they replace, what would differ in the gameplan depending on who's playing

 

[Vdubs]

What are people's thoughts on our best forward lineup for 2024?
I feel like the guaranteed players (when fit) would likely be:
Cameron, Hawkins, Miers, Stengle, Close and Rohan with O. Henry on the interchange with Dempsey, Mannagh, Neale (in any order) the most likely to break in with injuries or a respective slump/ascent in form.
I guess I'm just wondering if it's the latter and an ascent from one of the three, who do they replace, what would differ in the gameplan depending on who's playing

Ollie Henry is a certain starter in my team.

 

[Johnny Cattery]

I agree we are still going to try to push for a flag (thats our culture) but scott has always been the type of coach to promote 2 or 3 key young players at least (who are ready) and prioritise their selection. Last year it was henry and bruhn (and would have been clark if he wasnt injured). The year before it was sdk and zuthrie and stengle (i know 2 of them were a bit older but they were prioritised and some older players kept out for it). I expect the same this year. Traditionally hes given the older guys the first 4 games or so and if they arent performing go to the vfl (see higgins and dahlhaus and briefly bews last year).

To me (and its just my opinion no one has to agree) the likely changes are obvious in terms of which young players come in
Mannagh will take smiths wing spot (we have brought him in for a reason)
Knevitt will take tuohys spot as the tall link player through the wing and flanks.
Bews will phase out (as we would have seen last year if not for injuries) and i expect to see clark straight in. I know its not like for like positionally but we have other guys who can shuffle to the backline and for a variety of reasons clark is the next young player in the coaches very much rate him.

Beyond that the changes are less obvious but forseeable
Rohan might be on shaky ground with injuries etc and i think we are at a stage with dempsey in particular where his form may force his way in.
Stanley could be displaced by Conway but he would need to improve his endurance a lot, more likely he plays 8 to 10 games this year and takes over full time in 2025.

But those guys are the older players most at risk if scott wants change. If you look at other older players
Stewart Hawkins danger and duncan are safe so long as they are fit enough to play. Blicavs is safe because of the multi position value he gives us and osullivan isnt ready to replace that yet. Cuthrie is safe for output and leadership.

I can see a universe in which bowes is under pressure if he doesnt perform and ditto oconnor (although his ability to play a heap of different roles is valuable) and possibly kolo depending on how jeka comes on. I think with any spots that open up scott will be prioritising those games for the kids that are ready (the ones i mentioned above) rather than games to guys like parfitt.

I think mannagh knevitt clark and dempsey are clearly the next cabs off the rank apart from conway.
Beyond that it wouldnt surprise to see clohesy and mullin and neale and jeka (depending on whether henry stays fit) push for games as well as hardie (i dont rate him but hes either going to play this year or get delisted) and possibly stevens.

The other factor is the coach knows that probably 6 or so of the older guys will retire at the end of the year. If the wheels fall off (i hope they dont) and we get to a stage where we cant make finals he might accelerate how many young players come in for the back half of the year.

Agree with all of this other than Rohan. Nothing other than injury keeps him out. i know he has quiet games, but his pace and aggression give him a "what the hell was that?" factor no other player brings.

contrastingly, and I hate to say it because I really like him as a player, I feel like Duncan could be under a bit of pressure because of lack of pace. Everything else is elite, but there were moments when he was shown up quite badly.

 

[Johnny Cattery]

I hope not. It’s just my own rule of thumb on key forward progress and as Warhorse sais yesterday jamarra Hagen also kicked 35 goals in his third season and curnow also kicked 35 which is identical to Hawkins and n ablett in their third years to give some further validity to it.

You don’t need to be a superstar, but you should be standing on your own two feet contributing as a key forward In your third season of AFL kicking your 1-2 goals a game.

Neale from his limited appearances in 2023 was not holding his own in his 4 appearances as a forward, not even close… you would hope for a much improved output or he will find himself dropped fairly quickly

Edit:… just researched jack riewoldt in his third AFL season… he kicked 32 goals…. Exact same as Hawkins and ablett… the rule is gaining a lot of statistical evidence here

yeah I'm sceptical on Neale. yes he's athletic, yes he is tall, but he looks out of his depth. Might jag a role in defence but I doubt it.

 

[Vivy]

What are people's thoughts on our best forward lineup for 2024?
I feel like the guaranteed players (when fit) would likely be:
Cameron, Hawkins, Miers, Stengle, Close and Rohan with O. Henry on the interchange with Dempsey, Mannagh, Neale (in any order) the most likely to break in with injuries or a respective slump/ascent in form.
I guess I'm just wondering if it's the latter and an ascent from one of the three, who do they replace, what would differ in the gameplan depending on who's playing

I think we can field the best forward line in the comp.

Stengle
Hawkins
Rohan
Close
Cameron
Miers

With Mannagh coming off the bench.

 

[BORIS332]

I think we can field the best forward line in the comp.

Stengle
Hawkins
Rohan
Close
Cameron
Miers

With Mannagh coming off the bench.

Ollie Henry kicked 41 goals last season.

 

[Vivy]

Ollie Henry kicked 41 goals last season.

He's great at taking existing opportunities. We need to create more opportunities.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Ollie Henry kicked 41 goals last season.

How does that compare with other forwards at the same stage of development.

The answer may shock a few.

There's a reason why Hine was quick to grab him and didn't want to lose him. A recruiter I hold in high esteem.

 

[Vdubs]

He's great at taking existing opportunities. We need to create more opportunities.

THE ONLY thing we need to worry about is whether OHenry can have another season without significant injuries.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

I know Petracca quite well from when he was a kid, and know he was a star player at Eastern Ranges; the closest player in ability to GAS that I have ever seen. Vertical leap, marking, game changing- players and supporters just could not take their eyes off him- and this was age 16, 17, 18. Stevens has no pedigree like Petracca. Size ?

It matters not what supporters thought of Petracca in the early days- he took time to mature, as did GAJ. He was ALWAYS going to be a star player, worthy of being thought of as #1 in the comp. Very few recent drafted players come close to that.

Once again you and the point are complete strangers.

The point was even one of the most dynamic players in the game with burst speed out of traffic (Petracca) looked slow and cumbersome when he was carrying too much weight.

Nobody compared Stevens with Petracca as a player. It's simply an observation that Stevens will in all likelihood be a quicker and more dynamic athlete while carrying around 10-15 less kgs.

I doubt he'll ever be lighting quick, or even be regarded as 'fast'.....but it wouldn't be suprising at all if the concerns around his speed are alleviated with a loss of considerable weight.

Jhye Clark 13 is right though, this whole conversation is tiresome.

We've got posters who have hardly watched 5 minutes of both Stevens and Shannon Neale's play coming in here and making grand statements based on some blurry highlight footage they found on YouTube. It's getting a little bit ridiculous.

 

[bombersboy]

What makes you think he can't mark though? I had thought his leading patterns were a bit suspect in his first year where he kept running real wide into the pockets and putting himself on bad angles, but I never really got the sense he was dropping many good leads

I think his contested marking is poor.

 

[FredLeDeux]

I think his contested marking is poor.

Same as one J Cameron

 

[bombersboy]

Neale isn’t behind those players because he isn’t good enough. He is behind those players because of lack opportunity due to playing behind Hawkins and Cameron.

Jamara, Curnow and Reiwoldt were all gifted games early in their careers by their clubs. Neale has not had that luxury because he was drafted to a club that had an embarrassment of riches in tall forwards and was competing for flags.

Curnow was gifted 27 development games in his first 2 years and then kicked 34 goals from 20 games in his third year.

Jamara was gifted 22 development games in his first 2 years and then kicked 35 goals from 23 games in his third year.

Reiwoldt was gifted 26 development games in his first 2 years and then kicked 32 goals from 20 games in his third year.

I have little doubt that if any of these players were drafted to Geelong in 2020 as a second round draft pick that they would have been lucky to play 10 games in their first three years.

I also have little doubt that if Shannon Neale was gifted the games they were gifted in his first 3 seasons he would have been a 30 goals a season forward in year 3.

I also have little doubt that the plan for Neale this year is for him to get 15ish games and see how he performs. I am quietly confident that he will be a decent performer, and will have a solid career.

Neale isn’t behind those players because he isn’t good enough. He is behind those players because of lack opportunity due to playing behind Hawkins and Cameron.

Jamara, Curnow and Reiwoldt were all gifted games early in their careers by their clubs. Neale has not had that luxury because he was drafted to a club that had an embarrassment of riches in tall forwards and was competing for flags.

Curnow was gifted 27 development games in his first 2 years and then kicked 34 goals from 20 games in his third year.

Jamara was gifted 22 development games in his first 2 years and then kicked 35 goals from 23 games in his third year.

Reiwoldt was gifted 26 development games in his first 2 years and then kicked 32 goals from 20 games in his third year.

I have little doubt that if any of these players were drafted to Geelong in 2020 as a second round draft pick that they would have been lucky to play 10 games in their first three years.

I also have little doubt that if Shannon Neale was gifted the games they were gifted in his first 3 seasons he would have been a 30 goals a season forward in year 3.

I also have little doubt that the plan for Neale this year is for him to get 15ish games and see how he performs. I am quietly confident that he will be a decent performer, and will have a solid career.

I think the fairer comparison for Shannon is with Ratagolea in his first 3 years. Shannon is a long way behind Esava who many on this board did not rate. Hope he can turn it around with a decent run with injury. He is a way better kick than Esava.

 

[bombersboy]

yeah I'm sceptical on Neale. yes he's athletic, yes he is tall, but he looks out of his depth. Might jag a role in defence but I doubt it.

Shannon was tried as a defender in the VFL early on and he was all at sea. No chance as a defender.

 

[Cat Woman]

Surprised Matthew Egan

Matthew Egan

Age

41

Ht

196cm

Wt

101kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.5

3star

K

4.8

2star

HB

5.7

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.2

3star

No current season stats available

D

7.0

2star

K

3.2

2star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

0.4

3star

(head of development) has given his notice, he is joining the Western Bulldogs. I hope we can find a suitable replacement at such short notice. The boys will be back for preseason training in a week or two.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

In the game last year v Collingwood Neale playing ruck/ but forward mainly had 10 disposals. I think it was this game he missed two quite gettable goals by his standard. He is a very good kick...I turned to my kids when he was lining up for the first shot in this game from 40m..said watch this! He missed. Then he repeated the dose a little later missing everything.

He took 3 overhead marks..which surprised me. Not big marks but in one on ones. The ball came in to his advantage.. different to VFL.

If his stats had read 10 disposals, 12 HO and 2 goals it would speak of a promising young ruck/forward.

V the eventual premiers.

Let's see.

We will know by end 2024.

EDIT: the game where Neale missed the two goals was v Bulldogs. He actually kicked one and missed two set shots. Played mainly up forward. In checking the Collingwood game stats the stats above are correct. Watching a replay of highlights Neale hand balled to Cameron in general play for one goal and passed another to a team mate for an easy goal.

Still lets see.

On SM-G930U using BigFooty.com mobile app

I'm totally on board with you on the Pies game catswhiskers
Played the team role and competed well - the handball to Cameron was deferring to a senior guy plus he ,IIRC , could have kicked the other one he passed to a teammate.
Looked like he belonged , I'm bullish on the big lad

 

[Vdubs]

Once again you and the point are complete strangers.

The point was even one of the most dynamic players in the game with burst speed out of traffic (Petracca) looked slow and cumbersome when he was carrying too much weight.

Nobody compared Stevens with Petracca as a player. It's simply an observation that Stevens will in all likelihood be a quicker and more dynamic athlete while carrying around 10-15 less kgs.

I doubt he'll ever be lighting quick, or even be regarded as 'fast'.....but it wouldn't be suprising at all if the concerns around his speed are alleviated with a loss of considerable weight.

Jhye Clark 13 is right though, this whole conversation is tiresome.

We've got posters who have hardly watched 5 minutes of both Stevens and Shannon Neale's play coming in here and making grand statements based on some blurry highlight footage they found on YouTube. It's getting a little bit ridiculous.

Petracca, 28 yesterday, is currently 187/98. In the words of Rod Stewart, he wears it well.

Interestingly, Ablett snr did not start out as a huge bodied mid
Stevens is 189/90
His interview is brilliant.
I'm hoping he is a gun big bodied mid.
I just don't know if he has any innate speed.
Time will tell.

 

[Hamingja]

Surprised Matthew Egan (head of development) has given his notice, he is joining the Western Bulldogs. I hope we can find a suitable replacement.

Would Rahilly not already be his replacement? King and Rahilly in for Grigg and Egan (plus Daisy but she was a +1 under AFL scholarship so can't really replace her because of the soft cap)

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Neale isn’t behind those players because he isn’t good enough. He is behind those players because of lack opportunity due to playing behind Hawkins and Cameron.

Jamara, Curnow and Reiwoldt were all gifted games early in their careers by their clubs. Neale has not had that luxury because he was drafted to a club that had an embarrassment of riches in tall forwards and was competing for flags.

Curnow was gifted 27 development games in his first 2 years and then kicked 34 goals from 20 games in his third year.

Jamara was gifted 22 development games in his first 2 years and then kicked 35 goals from 23 games in his third year.

Reiwoldt was gifted 26 development games in his first 2 years and then kicked 32 goals from 20 games in his third year.

I have little doubt that if any of these players were drafted to Geelong in 2020 as a second round draft pick that they would have been lucky to play 10 games in their first three years.

I also have little doubt that if Shannon Neale was gifted the games they were gifted in his first 3 seasons he would have been a 30 goals a season forward in year 3.

I also have little doubt that the plan for Neale this year is for him to get 15ish games and see how he performs. I am quietly confident that he will be a decent performer, and will have a solid career.

Shannon neale played 3 games in 2023 and he looked incredibly lost at the level… it was the sort of 3 games that would get you dropped easily. I know it was only 3 games, but lost all the same.

If he played well I could have seen our coaching group going with neale Hawkins Cameron.. he simply didn’t warrant selection with his AFL output.

Do you honestly think if Nathan Ablett or jack riewoldt in his third season was playing in our 2023 team we wouldn’t have found a spot for them??… Chris Scott has shown time and time again he is willing to back in talented young players they see a lot of potential in over prioritizing other selections.

 

[Lana]

I think the fairer comparison for Shannon is with Ratagolea in his first 3 years. Shannon is a long way behind Esava who many on this board did not rate. Hope he can turn it around with a decent run with injury. He is a way better kick than Esava.

Our list was in a different place back then. It was pre-Cameron