USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

[spinynorman]

Mmm yeah, no. Also wrong use of the word woke. But good try

I used it as an adjective. What would be the right use of the word woke?

Did you just call the Democrats woke? Oh dear.

Rather than trying for a gotcha, why not articulate your issue? I use the term “woke centrism” as someone who wouldn’t necessarily take offence to being called woke but would at being called a centrist.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

You and spinynorman aren't Trumpers per se, but both of you absolutely revel in repeatedly posting "tut, tut Democrats" posts, gleefully pointing at anything that is even a slightly negative reflection on the Democrats and "warning" that they are in danger of losing the election.

I have no doubt that both of you are secretly hoping for a Trump win to vindicate your oft-stated views.

Nah I always appreciate their input.

Just because we all agree on Trump’s awfulness and desperately hope Harris defeats him, doesn’t mean we can’t be critiquing Harris for her many shortcomings.

The US is in a desperately bad place. First step is to get rid of Trump, and Harris has a decent chance of doing that.

But assuming she wins, discussion should immediately shift to who’s going to beat her in 2028, because I highly doubt her administration is going to make much difference to the chronic structural and cultural issues besetting the US.

All a Harris win will do is buy desperately-needed time and public discussion space to find someone who might be able to fix America (emphasis on might).

 

[spinynorman]

Eric Weinstein and his brother
Scott Adam’s aka Dilbert
Tim Pool
Rubin

All alternate media grifters who claim to be on the 'far left' of Bernie, yet spent 8 years pandering to white male grievances or peddling conspiracy theories that the system was trying to stop Trump. There's a swathe of money being made by astroturfing from the left.

That’s true, I think some people are bought out (there’s significantly more money to be had being a right wing commentator than a left wing one), but I don’t think people are earning significant amounts by posting on here.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

I used it as an adjective. What would be the right use of the word woke?



Rather than trying for a gotcha, why not articulate your issue? I use the term “woke centrism” as someone who wouldn’t necessarily take offence to being called woke but would at being called a centrist.

You used the word, not me. But surely you appreciate it is a throwaway pejorative used by MAGAs.

And spare me, who would take offence at being labelled a centrist? As if using the adjective 'woke' softens any unintended insult. Come on.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Nah I always appreciate their input.

Just because we all agree on Trump’s awfulness and desperately hope Harris defeats him, doesn’t mean we can’t be critiquing Harris for her many shortcomings.

The US is in a desperately bad place. First step is to get rid of Trump, and Harris has a decent chance of doing that.

But assuming she wins, discussion should immediately shift to who’s going to beat her in 2028, because I highly doubt her administration is going to make much difference to the chronic structural and cultural issues besetting the US.

All a Harris win will do is buy desperately-needed time and public discussion space to find someone who might be able to fix America (emphasis on might).

There's no fixing America until they resolve the Supreme Court, Electoral College, Senate Filibuster and house gerrymandering issues.

They should have fixed terms (18 years) so that every two years a supreme court member rolls out of the court, and the sitting president appoints the replacement. This allows for every president to sit two members during each four year term. This means the court represents more closely the will of the people, rather than one party stacking it for 30 years.

Second, they need to kill the electoral college. Popular vote is the only way to go.

The Senate Filibuster and the House Gerrymandering are linked. They allow for the minority to either win (house) or block (senate), so that changes that are otherwise wanted by the majority of voters don't flow through.

Sadly, won't happen because the GOP are a rump party with minority support so will fight tooth and nail to protect all of the above.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

There's no fixing America until they resolve the Supreme Court, Electoral College, Senate Filibuster and house gerrymandering issues.

They should have fixed terms (18 years) so that every two years a supreme court member rolls out of the court, and the sitting president appoints the replacement. This allows for every president to sit two members during each four year term. This means the court represents more closely the will of the people, rather than one party stacking it for 30 years.

Second, they need to kill the electoral college. Popular vote is the only way to go.

The Senate Filibuster and the House Gerrymandering are linked. They allow for the minority to either win (house) or block (senate), so that changes that are otherwise wanted by the majority of voters don't flow through.

Sadly, won't happen because the GOP are a rump party with minority support so will fight tooth and nail to protect all of the above.

Agree 100%. I can’t say I hold much hope America isn’t going to go down the gurgler soon, but to even have a snowball’s of preventing that, first thing is to defeat Trump.

 

[SM]

There's no fixing America until they resolve the Supreme Court, Electoral College, Senate Filibuster and house gerrymandering issues.

They should have fixed terms (18 years) so that every two years a supreme court member rolls out of the court, and the sitting president appoints the replacement. This allows for every president to sit two members during each four year term. This means the court represents more closely the will of the people, rather than one party stacking it for 30 years.

Second, they need to kill the electoral college. Popular vote is the only way to go.

The Senate Filibuster and the House Gerrymandering are linked. They allow for the minority to either win (house) or block (senate), so that changes that are otherwise wanted by the majority of voters don't flow through.

Sadly, won't happen because the GOP are a rump party with minority support so will fight tooth and nail to protect all of the above.

Popular vote unfairly weights things towards the heavily populated cities which will have different needs and voices to more rural areas. Giving both an equal weighting is the only way to ensure candidates represent ALL of a country. It's the same story here.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Agree 100%. I can’t say I hold much hope America isn’t going to go down the gurgler soon, but to even have a snowball’s of preventing that, first thing is to defeat Trump.

Agreed. Need to then bring in puerto rico and Washington DC as states to help resolve the senate issues. Then just stack the surpreme court. Sadly don’t think any dem will have the guts to do it

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Popular vote unfairly weights things towards the heavily populated cities which will have different needs and voices to more rural areas. Giving both an equal weighting is the only way to ensure candidates represent ALL of a country. It's the same story here.

No it does not. Currently the only states that matter are 5 or 6 swing states.

The states have equal representation in terms of the Senate, they don't then need additional power at the electoral college level. That is how it works here.

 

[Chief]

Agree 100%. I can’t say I hold much hope America isn’t going to go down the gurgler soon, but to even have a snowball’s of preventing that, first thing is to defeat Trump.

Place already looks much like China, Russia, England.

Massive underclass outside of a selection of major metropolitan areas being drained of money and power to retain the illusion of dominance.

 

[SM]

No it does not. Currently the only states that matter are 5 or 6 swing states.

The states have equal representation in terms of the Senate, they don't then need additional power at the electoral college level. That is how it works here.

The states have equal representation in the senate but I'm not talking about the states, I'm talking about the people.

The only reason that the swing states are what matter is because of the demographics.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

How are the dems more right wing then our labour? I would of thought they are more left wing on social policy. Most social policy reforms were pushed through by democrats in america before labour pushed them through in australia.

Dems are ambivalent about the death penalty.

Dems are more conservative on working conditions and labour rights.

Dems are more lax on environmental regulation.

Agree on social policy though.

 

[Maggie5]

Mmm yeah, no. Also wrong use of the word woke. But good try

Woke is such an overused word, just like left.

 

[spinynorman]

You used the word, not me. But surely you appreciate it is a throwaway pejorative used by MAGAs.

And spare me, who would take offence at being labelled a centrist? As if using the adjective 'woke' softens any unintended insult. Come on.

So is “leftist”, but I’m not sure I need to spend my life bothering on what the right think.

Whatever, liberal centrist if the initial descriptor bothered you so much.

 

[Maggie5]

Nah I always appreciate their input.

Just because we all agree on Trump’s awfulness and desperately hope Harris defeats him, doesn’t mean we can’t be critiquing Harris for her many shortcomings.

The US is in a desperately bad place. First step is to get rid of Trump, and Harris has a decent chance of doing that.

But assuming she wins, discussion should immediately shift to who’s going to beat her in 2028, because I highly doubt her administration is going to make much difference to the chronic structural and cultural issues besetting the US.

All a Harris win will do is buy desperately-needed time and public discussion space to find someone who might be able to fix America (emphasis on might).

I have a problem with this. Not easy to beat Trump especially with the media (not just FOX) repeating and still amplifying his every lie and alternate facts.

The USA is a strange place (family and friends there) and sadly rarely question their politicians.

Fear and loss are strong emotions and motivators and Trump uses that very well.

He has been doing this for the past 8 years, big thing to overcome and still speak about policies that will benefit them.

He is a disgusting human being.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Fair points, but I will point out that polls are unlikely to be capturing non-voters. The numbers in the polls represent people specifying they will vote for either Harris and Trump.

So, by extension, if Harris is losing ground, it is going to Trump. Suggesting she is being "found out" means people are preferring Trump to her because she is a bad (worse) person. I don't buy that.

Well as you say polls capture voters less so non voters. So someone who was leaning Harris that later is unimpressed and now is “not voting” will therefore be out of the sample and another voter who may be a trump voter is included in the sample

 

[Seeds]

Dems are ambivalent about the death penalty.

Dems are more conservative on working conditions and labour rights.

Dems are more lax on environmental regulation.

Agree on social policy though.

True although i think they are forced into those positions due to the nature of the conservative party they are up against.

Labours also lax on the environment giving they keep approving new coal mines and got rid of their carbon tax. Atleast some democratic states in the us have carbon taxes. Labour doesnt in any australian state.

 

[OneGreatClub]

Out of Brazil and is rated 22nd with a mark just under 3 stars by 538. ( 3 stars is the highest)

FiveThirtyEight, an expert on measuring and rating pollster performance, has evaluated 24 polls by AtlasIntel, earning 2.7 stars for accuracy, indicating they are High Factual by MBFC’s criteria. They also conclude that their polling slightly favors the right with a score of -0.8, which equates to Least Biased overall in polling bias. In general, AtlasIntel is considered accurate and demonstrates minimal bias in polling.

They seem to have a good rating and are not owned by anyone I can see that has any political affiliation obvious. ( that may change)

Not sure you can make the above claim but it isnt terribly inaccurate

Polling was wrong in the mid terms.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

So is “leftist”, but I’m not sure I need to spend my life bothering on what the right think.

Whatever, liberal centrist if the initial descriptor bothered you so much.

LOL, it didn't bother me.

I think you knew what you were doing, but now realise using the MAGA throwaway (and ill-defined) term wasn't one of your better moments.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

True although i think they are forced into those positions due to the nature of the conservative party they are up against.

Labours also lax on the environment giving they keep approving new coal mines and got rid of their carbon tax. Atleast some democratic states in the us have carbon taxes. Labour doesnt in any australian state.

Good points but Labor did introduce a national carbon price but haven't reintroduced it due to the nature of the conservative party they are up against

 

[GreyCrow]

Lies have consequences

10-09-24 - Caller Anthony from NC - Father In-Law wont take help from FEMA because of disinformation.mp4

cdn.jwplayer.com

Anthony from NC was in the path of the storm and an emergency bus pulled up and asked if he wanted to be evacuated. ' Trump will provide '' as the waters rose Anthiny moved to the 2nd floor of his house where a rowboat pulled alongside and asked Anthony from NC if he wanted to get in. '' No Trump will save me '' . A little while later Anthony from NC was on his roof when a helicopter dropped a ladder and Anthony asked if they were FEMA - ' yes we are ' '' no thank you Trump will deliver me a golden helicopter ''

Anthony from NC rocked up to the Pearly Gates and looked grumpy. St Peter asked Anthony why he was grumpy.

' Trump told me there would be 72 virgins here ''

 

[GreyCrow]

 

[spinynorman]

True although i think they are forced into those positions due to the nature of the conservative party they are up against.

Labours also lax on the environment giving they keep approving new coal mines and got rid of their carbon tax. Atleast some democratic states in the us have carbon taxes. Labour doesnt in any australian state.

It’s hard if we’re going to compare their current time in government because Albanese hasn’t really accomplished much. But I’d say:

Medicare, for its many faults that Labor inherited and haven’t done enough to address, is significantly to the left of Obamacare. Labor on industrial relations is well to the left of the Democrats. Even something like the Voice, though a failure, is way further than anything the Americans have touched on indigenous rights.

 

[GreyCrow]

There's no fixing America until they resolve the Supreme Court, Electoral College, Senate Filibuster and house gerrymandering issues.

They should have fixed terms (18 years) so that every two years a supreme court member rolls out of the court, and the sitting president appoints the replacement. This allows for every president to sit two members during each four year term. This means the court represents more closely the will of the people, rather than one party stacking it for 30 years.

I dont mind this If my maths is correct thats 18 year term limits? Elected at say 57 leaves a 75 year age finish. I could do that

Second, they need to kill the electoral college. Popular vote is the only way to go.


The Senate Filibuster and the House Gerrymandering are linked. They allow for the minority to either win (house) or block (senate), so that changes that are otherwise wanted by the majority of voters don't flow through.

I think an AEC type system is more in line with the Electoral and Gerrymander issues. Not sure compulsory would work but at least openly explore the idea. Also change it from Market Day to a 2 day weekender

 

[Seeds]

It’s hard if we’re going to compare their current time in government because Albanese hasn’t really accomplished much. But I’d say:

Medicare, for its many faults that Labor inherited and haven’t done enough to address, is significantly to the left of Obamacare. Labor on industrial relations is well to the left of the Democrats. Even something like the Voice, though a failure, is way further than anything the Americans have touched on indigenous rights.

This is true but again the reason many of these policies are the way they are in australia and the usa is not because labour is more left than the democrats. Its because the conservatives are more right wing in the usa than the democrats. Pretty sure the democrats would push through an australian style medicare if they could and ban the death penalty. Most of the progressive ideas that Labour adopt come from left wing think tanks in the US. I.e. Both Labor and democrats source their ideology from the same people/groups. Its just one group has more opportunity to push it through.

And its not the case that the usa is more right wing on all policy issues. The usa has inheritance taxes (Labor wont even touch that), some democrat states have carbon taxes (labor wont touch that now), the usa have a bill of human rights (staggering that we dont) and until very recently the usa had roe vs wade legalising abortion rights in all states (australia has never had any equivalent relying on the states to determine abortion laws which has only been legalised very recently in some states despite it being legalised since the 70s in all the usa states).