USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris

[Chief]

Continued in Part 2

USA - 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

Continued from Part 1 - https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2024-us-presidential-election-trump-vs-harris.1383317/

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

Do you now what it takes to change the Constitution?

not long if you hold dictatorial powers and others in parliament support you...
Example: The Enabling Act of Hitler, passed in March 1933, overrode the Constitution of Germany and allowed the Third Reich to govern without consulting the Parliament.

 

[Gough]

not long if you hold dictatorial powers and others in parliament support you...
Example: The Enabling Act of Hitler, passed in March 1933, overrode the Constitution of Germany and allowed the Third Reich to govern without consulting the Parliament.

Which candidate do you think is more lilely to try and do that do you think?

 

[IlovethePies]

Which candidate do you think is more lilely to try and do that do you think?

Clearly Trump.
But my point is that such is the crisis in the US, that Trump could easily find support among the Democrats to pass such an act, rather than risk a social movement in the working class ripping the entire structure apart.

They fear a movement from below far more than the consequences of a Trump dictatorship.

However, this is just one scenario, there could be many others which might play out. What is beyond doubt though is that there is no way that Trump will accept electoral defeat, should he lose.

And if he wins, the recent Supreme Court decision of presidential immunity will give him the freedom to act as he pleases.

 

[Maggie5]

not long if you hold dictatorial powers and others in parliament support you...
Example: The Enabling Act of Hitler, passed in March 1933, overrode the Constitution of Germany and allowed the Third Reich to govern without consulting the Parliament.

Not interested in Germany, this thread is about Harris/Trump Presidential election.

The following steps must be completed for an amendment proposed by Congress to be added to the United States Constitution.

Step 1. Passage by Congress. Proposed amendment language must be approved by a two-thirds vote of both houses.

Step 2. Notification of the states. The national archivist sends notification and materials to the governor of each state.

Step 3. Ratification by three-fourths of the states. Ratification of the amendment language adopted by Congress is an up-or-down vote in each legislative chamber. A state legislature cannot change the language. If it does, its ratification is invalid. A governor’s signature on the ratification bill or resolution is not necessary.

More than 11,000 amendments to the Constitution of the United States have been proposed, but only 27 have been ratified. The first 10 amendments, known as the Bill of Rights, were ratified in 1791

 

[IlovethePies]

Not interested in Germany, this thread is about Harris/Trump Presidential election.

The following steps must be completed for an amendment proposed by Congress to be added to the United States Constitution.

Step 1. Passage by Congress. Proposed amendment language must be approved by a two-thirds vote of both houses.

Step 2. Notification of the states. The national archivist sends notification and materials to the governor of each state.

Step 3. Ratification by three-fourths of the states. Ratification of the amendment language adopted by Congress is an up-or-down vote in each legislative chamber. A state legislature cannot change the language. If it does, its ratification is invalid. A governor’s signature on the ratification bill or resolution is not necessary.

More than 11,000 amendments to the Constitution of the United States have been proposed, but only 27 have been ratified. The first 10 amendments, known as the Bill of Rights, were ratified in 1791

You are thinking in terms of a functioning democracy where all parties and figures will obey the norms of bourgeois democracy.
This situation simply does not exist in the United States.

 

[Maggie5]

You are thinking in terms of a functioning democracy where all parties and figures will obey the norms of bourgeois democracy.
This situation simply does not exist in the United States.

Did you just ignore how difficult to make changes to the USA Constitution?

Republicans were only able to pass 27 bills in 2023 that were sent to the President for signing, the most least productive for decades and you think they can change sections of the Constitution?

 

[blackshadow]

Did you just ignore how difficult to make changes to the USA Constitution?

Republicans were only able to pass 27 bills in 2023 that were sent to the President for signing, the most least productive for decades and you think they can change sections of the Constitution?

I think there is a real danger is that Trump and his supporters will ignore the Constitution and just attempt to do whatever the **** they want - I feel he doesn't give a **** about escalating violence to impose his will and banking on the opposition not wanting to retaliate.

 

[Maggie5]

I think there is a real danger is that Trump and his supporters will ignore the Constitution and just attempt to do whatever the ** they want - I feel he doesn't give a ** about escalating violence to impose his will.

You forgot the 'magic' wand.

 

[IlovethePies]

Did you just ignore how difficult to make changes to the USA Constitution?

Republicans were only able to pass 27 bills in 2023 that were sent to the President for signing, the most least productive for decades and you think they can change sections of the Constitution?

The reason I brought up the example of Germany was to explain that in a time of enormous class polarization and intense political crisis, the rules of constitutional democracy get thrown out the window.

I think that the US has reached now a level of social and political crisis of similar magnitude to that of Germany in the late 1920s and early 30s.

Therefore, there is no point in referring to how difficult it was to change the Constitution in the past, because in the new conditions, the norms of the past will no longer be adhered to.

Therefore, to argue against what I am saying, you would have to explain why you think that the US is not in that level of crisis.

 

[Nikita Blue]

FMD the testimony from the father of the boy who died in the car accident is heartbreaking.

To suffer the tragic loss of a child, and then see this Vance PoS grotesquely lie about it for political gain.

Sort of behaviour you'd expect from a desperate smack addict.

About the only possible excuse I can find for that slimeball Vance is if he's being debased by the mother of all drug habits.

Because no self-respecting human being would do that sort of thing.

Wow that has ruined my morning.

Yes could only imagine the pain his parents have experienced. How brave of them to speak up for their son saying they didn't want his memory debased by those seeking to exploit his death.

Also I didn't know that someone from the Vance campaign rang and asked if the stories were true and was told they were not. Yet went ahead and spread the lie anyway. A truly despicable man.

 

[Bloods86]

Therefore, the only way to stop Trump is not by voting for Harris, but instead by fighting to build the revolutionary party if the working class.

Ok, but 2 questions:

1) How many states is the SEP on the ballot for this election?

2) Do you seriously think the SEP, or any left wing minor parties can do anything in this election, gaining above maybe a few % with the current funding, organisation and public awareness that you have? An honest answer rather than a wishful thinking one please.

If people want to do grassroots worker organisation and champion workers rights organisations, parties even, that's all good. But if they have no viable path to win, then the ONLY viable path to blocking Trump from the White House, is to vote for Harris. That few % of left wing holdouts could send Trump to the White House, with nothing achieved.

This is the reality, you cannot escape it. At least not in this cycle.

 

[Gough]

Did you just ignore how difficult to make changes to the USA Constitution?

Republicans were only able to pass 27 bills in 2023 that were sent to the President for signing, the most least productive for decades and you think they can change sections of the Constitution?

They're no longer a party interested in actual governing, they want power for power's sake.

 

[Satan]

NY congressman hired his lover and fiancée's daughter in possible ethics violation: Report

Long Island Congressman Anthony D’Esposito may have violated House ethics rules by hiring his mistress and his fiancée’s daughter at his district office, according to a new report by the New York Times.

www.nbcnewyork.com

and he complained about santos lol

 

[blackshadow]

They're no longer a party interested in actual governing, they want power for power's sake.

Bingo.

 

[happy_eagle]

Not a single brain cell amongst these folks

 

[IlovethePies]

Ok, but 2 questions:

1) How many states is the SEP on the ballot for this election?

2) Do you seriously think the SEP, or any left wing minor parties can do anything in this election, gaining above maybe a few % with the current funding, organisation and public awareness that you have? An honest answer rather than a wishful thinking one please.

If people want to do grassroots worker organisation and champion workers rights organisations, parties even, that's all good. But if they have no viable path to win, then the ONLY viable path to blocking Trump from the White House, is to vote for Harris. That few % of left wing holdouts could send Trump to the White House, with nothing achieved.

This is the reality, you cannot escape it. At least not in this cycle.

The SEP is not a parliamentary party, it is a revolutionary party. It does not harbour any illusions about achieving socialism through Parliament (in this case Congress).

The SEP is standing in the election in Michigan as a platform to publicise its program as widely as possible to the working class. It has chosen Michigan to stand, because this is home to a very large working class population, and in particular, many Middle Eastern workers who are outraged by the genocide in Gaza, and are looking for a party which genuinely opposes this genocide and has a political program to stop it. The SEP is the only political party on the planet that has this program.

The main issue for the SEP is not who wins the election, but what happens after. This is the point. The conditions within the US will be tumultuous whatever the result of this election, and the demands of the working class for adequate wages, decent access to health care, decent housing, will continue unabated.

At the moment, there is a mass strike in Boeing. The SEP has influence among the Boeing workers, and is calling for them to organise independently of the pro-capitalist union bureaucracy and turn to other sections of the working class for support. The dock workers are soon to face a contract, and - given the example set by the Boeing workers - could easily reject the sell out deal that the bureaucracy will try to impose on them.

Seattle dockworkers support Boeing strikers

Dockworkers are expressing their solidarity with the Boeing rank-and-file workers' revolt against the International Association of Machinists leadership.

www.wsws.org

The SEP anticipates an enormous radicalisation in the working class, which is already taking place, and from there a rapid expansion in its influence.

 

[Bloods86]

The SEP is not a parliamentary party, it is a revolutionary party. It does not harbour any illusions about achieving socialism through Parliament (in this case Congress).

The SEP is standing in the election in Michigan as a platform to publicise its program as widely as possible to the working class. It has chosen Michigan to stand, because this is home to a very large working class population, and in particular, many Middle Eastern workers who are outraged by the genocide in Gaza, and are looking for a party which genuinely opposes this genocide and has a political program to stop it. The SEP is the only political party on the planet that has this program.

The main issue for the SEP is not who wins the election, but what happens after. This is the point. The conditions within the US will be tumultuous whatever the result of this election, and the demands of the working class for adequate wages, decent access to health care, decent housing, will continue unabated.

At the moment, there is a mass strike in Boeing. The SEP has influence among the Boeing workers, and is calling for them to organise independently of the pro-capitalist union bureaucracy and turn to other sections of the working class for support. The dock workers are soon to face a contract, and - given the example set by the Boeing workers - could easily reject the sell out deal that the bureaucracy will try to impose on them.

Seattle dockworkers support Boeing strikers

Dockworkers are expressing their solidarity with the Boeing rank-and-file workers' revolt against the International Association of Machinists leadership.

www.wsws.org

The SEP anticipates an enormous radicalisation in the working class, which is already taking place, and from there a rapid expansion in its influence.

Right, so plenty of work there to be done outside of this election.

This is about the 2024 Presidential Election though.

Do you acknowledge then that the best way for Trump to be kept out of the White House, thus buying more time to organise, promote awareness etc of socialist groups and goals, is to vote for Harris?

Or do you prefer to have Trump take office and for him and his party to further erode workers rights and the ability to organise, in a strategic play to accelerate the conditions for your revolution? Knowing that it comes with risks that workers will have fewer rights and worse conditions, potentially for a very long time, if your aims fail to eventuate.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Did you just ignore how difficult to make changes to the USA Constitution?

Republicans were only able to pass 27 bills in 2023 that were sent to the President for signing, the most least productive for decades and you think they can change sections of the Constitution?

You make it sound like they need to change the constitution to do whatever they want? They have a supreme court that will rubber stamp whatever they want, constitution be damned. Then what happens?

 

[FireKrakouer]

and hasn't been as much of a controversial supporter of another country responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians.

False. Prior to being selected as VP candidate, Timmy and Shapiro shared the same view of Israel and the war in Gaza.

I'm guessing a pretty big factor might be that they preferred to avoid a running mate with as many skeletons in the closet as Shapiro appears to have - may have literally been involved in the cover-up of a murder, signing off on a death by 20 stab wounds being ruled a suicide. Even the Clintons would blush at that one lol. But sure, Walz put tampons in bathrooms and drunk drove once

Maybe look to lower the intake of kool aid from the right wing griftosphere m8.

There is no need to run interference for anti semitic behaviour m8. I'll let a lot of things by you slide, but will always call out bigotry!

He would have ended up in Springfield Oregon

For you Russian bots , research the Simpsons

Trump was going to offer them a monorail... but that's more of a Shelbyville idea.

 

[GreyCrow]

The reason I brought up the example of Germany was to explain that in a time of enormous class polarization and intense political crisis, the rules of constitutional democracy get thrown out the window.

I think that the US has reached now a level of social and political crisis of similar magnitude to that of Germany in the late 1920s and early 30s.

I dont. Its conflated nonsense spouted by MAGAs and some Republicans to ' win ' the election

I have shown previously the economy is doing ok under Biden. Prices rise , fuel rises , food rises rent rises. Its not economic policy that drives that its profit making

Therefore, to argue against what I am saying, you would have to explain why you think that the US is not in that level of crisis.

I did. Its conflated by split media.

I stopped reading newspapers 8 years ago after buying 1 everyday for 40 years. I feel so much better in doing so. I dont watch Fox or Sky and rarely ABC. I watch for the news of the day not opinion

Its not as bad as you think

 

[Gough]

I love the way drink driving is seen as a capital offense when you're a public figure but not when it's half of your mates who've been busted for it.

 

[Bloods86]

False. Prior to being selected as VP candidate, Timmy and Shapiro shared the same view of Israel and the war in Gaza.

There is no need to run interference for anti semitic behaviour m8. I'll let a lot of things by you slide, but will always call out bigotry!

Trump was going to offer them a monorail... but that's more of a Shelbyville idea.

I don't seem to recall Walz coming out and comparing pro Palestine protestors to the KKK, but whatever you need to tell yourself to keep the conspiracy alive.

And you overlook other factors because you need something to hide behind, given your support of Trump. We all see you.

 

[DaTBird187]

Oh look, the closet Trumpie continuing his Trump defending posts whilst pretending he's all about 'balanced' discussion. How about you run this one by your experienced (LOL) Neuropsychologist (why the capital?). It's from this year.

View attachment 2120464

He talks how his supporters think.

 

[Blue1980]

Yes, exactly right. Trump has made clear that if he loses, he will not accept the result.
He will mobilise fascist forces in Jan 6 Mark 2, but having learned the lessons of the previous one, this time it will be alot more clinical and planned.

The posters on this board ridicule Trump, without actually recognising the huge threat he poses to democracy.

The issue is that there is not a widely enough known political alternative to the entire capitalist framework.Therefore, people might lapse into the mental mechanisms that you suggest.

However, there is an alternative, and it needs to get promoted as widely as possible:

The 2024 US elections and the tasks of the Socialist Equality Party

We are publishing here the main resolution adopted by the Eighth National Congress of the Socialist Equality Party (US), held from August 4 to August 9, 2024.

www.wsws.org

I get what you are saying, I maybe as little as 5 years ago thought a more socialist state wasn’t possible due to lack of $$$ to spend etc.

I now recognise that is horeshit, admittedly us and the rest of the western world do a way better job of having a proper welfare state, health care etc than the US but there are still way too many vested interests catered to.

Thing is I think we can get there (maybe naively) by left leaning parties being in power and moving them to the left.

Unfortunately in a lot of history, like the Great Depression and WWII shows you don’t get the working/middle classes looked after until there is total crisis. (LDR’s new deal, social welfare state created after WWII in the western world)

Going accelerationist in the US could go one of two ways. Could be like the aftermath of 1989 in China and just leads to some right wing authoritarian stronghold, or it could lead to the collapse of the current system with dismantling of the current power structure of US politics and new structure for the electoral college, house of reps and senate.

In the US people aren’t as repressed as China circa 1989 and more divided, so could lead to states breaking away, and terror attscks like the troubles in Ireland.

 

[Blue1980]

I am sorry, but you are forgetting Charlottesville, you are forgetting how Trump was about to bring out the military in response to protests against the murder of George Floyd...

Trump has already declared that if he wins, he will deport 20 million immigrants. This can only be done under a police state.

He has also declared openly that the democrats are enrolling illegal immigrants to vote for them, signalling that he will launch another coup attempt based on fraudulent charges of a "'stolen election" should he lose.

Trump is a prowar fascist politician. His immediate policies will be aimed at suppressing opposition to his rule within the US by using police/military repression. Hence his ability to pose as an "anti-war" candidate. He might temporarily wind down the war in Ukraine, in order to deal with opposition within the US

Once that is done, he will turn to initiating war against China.

Trump is also on record to have declared that :"Israel needs to get the job done" - in other words, just as pro-genocide as Biden.

Hitlers original plan was to deport the Jews, then they came up with another, final solution.

So deporting 20 million immigrants how can it be done? Going to have immigrant hunters terrorising people for hiding them in a basement? Then realise it’s all too hard to deport so come up with their own “final” solution?