List Mgmt. 2025 List Management 📃

[BlueNath]

Not sure why I’m caring about this…

However, unless you’re Dylan Alexander.

You’ve just copied his YouTube video and said that’s how clubs rate players. Never heard anyone else in the AFL refer to players like this.

Just to clarify one final time... my post was responding to discussions that Hewett is too old, too slow, low skill etc. and that younger guys can replace him in the midfield mix. I was trying to point out that Hewett plays a specific role within our midfield though. I thought it important to point out what the typical roles are in a midfield mix.

I certainly was not trying to rate players!

I hope I am right in saying that people don't believe that players just rock up on game day and just wing it and see how things go? So we therefore agree that specific roles exist. And even if you don't care to think about or try and label these roles, Im sure everyone will agree there is a defensive role in the midfield that gets performed by at least 1 midfielder at (almost) every stoppage? So lets park all the titles aside that people hate on so much, and just agree that a defensive role exists.

With that established, I think the discussion around Hewetts role within the team is better scoped. Therefore, saying something along the lines of "Hewett is a B-grader and Jagga takes his role from round 1" is not a properly thought through strategy

 

[Arr0w]

Just to clarify one final time... my post was responding to discussions that Hewett is too old, too slow, low skill etc. and that younger guys can replace him in the midfield mix. I was trying to point out that Hewett plays a specific role within our midfield though. I thought it important to point out what the typical roles are in a midfield mix.

I certainly was not trying to rate players!

I hope I am right in saying that people don't believe that players just rock up on game day and just wing it and see how things go? So we therefore agree that specific roles exist. And even if you don't care to think about or try and label these roles, Im sure everyone will agree there is a defensive role in the midfield that gets performed by at least 1 midfielder at (almost) every stoppage? So lets park all the titles aside that people hate on so much, and just agree that a defensive role exists.

With that established, I think the discussion around Hewetts role within the team is better scoped. Therefore, saying something along the lines of "Hewett is a B-grader and Jagga takes his role from round 1" is not a properly thought through strategy

well said

 

[TENACIOUS]

Just to clarify one final time... my post was responding to discussions that Hewett is too old, too slow, low skill etc. and that younger guys can replace him in the midfield mix. I was trying to point out that Hewett plays a specific role within our midfield though. I thought it important to point out what the typical roles are in a midfield mix.

I certainly was not trying to rate players!

I hope I am right in saying that people don't believe that players just rock up on game day and just wing it and see how things go? So we therefore agree that specific roles exist. And even if you don't care to think about or try and label these roles, Im sure everyone will agree there is a defensive role in the midfield that gets performed by at least 1 midfielder at (almost) every stoppage? So lets park all the titles aside that people hate on so much, and just agree that a defensive role exists.

With that established, I think the discussion around Hewetts role within the team is better scoped. Therefore, saying something along the lines of "Hewett is a B-grader and Jagga takes his role from round 1" is not a properly thought through strategy

Agree with and appreciate your response..

Just wasn’t how your first post read to me, thanks for clarifying I didn’t see your other posts.

Hewett certainly has the ability to play as a defensive mid

I’d imagine that Hewett would be in the starting midfield, however I’d hope we’d pick the team as the actual best team, on form and structure…

 

[heatleystandend]

What I can’t work out is if every Carlton player is a star of the game, and our young players are ready to push them out how we will lose a game for the next 3 seasons.

Carlton supporters ridiculously overrate their players. And the longer the preseason goes the better they get!

After the Brisbane finals game there was a sense that our players aren’t that good but that passed very quickly.

 

[tragic]

What I can’t work out is if every Carlton player is a star of the game, and our young players are ready to push them out how we will lose a game for the next 3 seasons.

Carlton supporters ridiculously overrate their players. And the longer the preseason goes the better they get!

After the Brisbane finals game there was a sense that our players aren’t that good but that passed very quickly.

To tell the truth i had more of a feeling our coaching panel aren't that good

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

I agree with both the above posts.
That's why some form of change is required to reach the next level

We've moved on the regular injured group, traded slowies like Kennedy and Owies.

The next step is to select more young faster players.(this might be replacing George at some stage next season)

 

[bmaurizio]

We also need a senior assitant coach mentor to instill some tactical nous into the coaching team.
I just can’t see Vossy being about to pull a rabbit out of the hat as and when needed, we’re weak in this area of the game.
We’ll struggle untill it’s addressed.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

Just to clarify one final time... my post was responding to discussions that Hewett is too old, too slow, low skill etc. and that younger guys can replace him in the midfield mix. I was trying to point out that Hewett plays a specific role within our midfield though. I thought it important to point out what the typical roles are in a midfield mix.

I certainly was not trying to rate players!

I hope I am right in saying that people don't believe that players just rock up on game day and just wing it and see how things go? So we therefore agree that specific roles exist. And even if you don't care to think about or try and label these roles, Im sure everyone will agree there is a defensive role in the midfield that gets performed by at least 1 midfielder at (almost) every stoppage? So lets park all the titles aside that people hate on so much, and just agree that a defensive role exists.

With that established, I think the discussion around Hewetts role within the team is better scoped. Therefore, saying something along the lines of "Hewett is a B-grader and Jagga takes his role from round 1" is not a properly thought through strategy

George is in our best 23 as long as my bum points toward the ground. Prepared to do the hard grunt and never plays a bad game. Finished 5th in our B&F, and probably would have finished top 3 if he wasn't kicking the dew off the grass with the VFL that week when the MC lost their minds. For mine, he's such an important cog in our line up...allows players like Crippa and Walshy and even Cez to shine by preparing to do the hard grunt.

Speaking of which, I'm probably losing my mind as well and in the minority, but I'm hoping that Jagga isn't in our best 23 at the beginning of the year, cos our 'established' midfield is absolute shooting the lights out. I'm hoping he's blitzing in the VFL along with our other draftees and putting pressure on our best 23 during the season, and getting the call up when there's an injury or two. There's absolutely nothing wrong with healthy competition for spots in the starting line up.

Either way, I like the way that Austin is 'rebuilding' our midfield with an eye to the future with Lord, Jagga, the Campo's, and Cody walking through the door in a few years...and you could even throw Cow into that mix as the bigger body mid. Some genuine quality there. And all of this while we're still in the premiership window.

Edit: I forgot to add Elijah to that young midfield group

 

[HyphensBack]

This is the crux of our whole midfield. Cripps will do what Cripps does, Walsh is shuffled between on-baller and wing, and Cerra has been forced at times to play defense to detrimental effect.

I feel Walsh needs to play wing, Cerra purely on the ball, with Hewitt. Lord will push Hewitt but I'm unsure about Jagga's Role.

He will need to put on some body mass because he'll get smashed at AFL level, no matter how good his evasive skills are, and the last thing we need is to wreck him early like we seem to have done with every other mid we've had.

I think the fact we don’t have average or elite small forwards provides an opportunity for both Smith and Lord to play forward (can’t do a worse job then Motlop or Durdin) and they can probably play better midfield minutes instead of Fogarty and E Hollands

It could be a win win (development and better mid and forward contributions)

 

[HarryFlashman]

Yes it's the new flavor of the month term which is quite popular with the younger Journo's in the media.
Having said that, I don't think it's nonsensical as it is an apt description of the power-mids (Dusty/DeGoey types) that can turn it on and score quickly.

But you are right when you say it's not a positional thing. It's more the type of player.

It’s a shit term, it’s not soccer!

I hear a journo/commentator say “park the bus” I’ll burn his/her house down

Bloody numpties finding new ways to say the same shit, trying to be relevant/on the cutting edge

 

[HyphensBack]

I have seen several posts on here about Hewett and how others can take his role. Then I see people suggesting Lord, Jagga, Hollands, Cowan, Ben etc. can fill that role (for various reasons such as to make us faster). So I thought I’d just give a quick overview of how VFL (and assumably AFL) coaches setup stoppages. If anyone on here has the privilege to see how AFL coaches approach stoppage work in the inner sanctum (or also have VFL experiences), please give us your insights also.

Lets talk clean slate… Think the Tassie devils and their recruiters and coaches getting together to discuss what is needed in an ideal world for that very first bounce of the footy in game 1. It would be:
1x Striker mid
1x Engine mid
1x Defensive mid

To give those of you who are unaware a quick synopsis of what coaches mean when they talk about these role types, they are:

Striker mid: TYPICALLY... offensive weapon (break through defensive walls), explosive, clean, attacking mentality, decisive, physical (bigger/stronger bodies), high impact, higher kick ratio, high I50 ratio, kick goals, get tired easier so rest forward or lower TOG. 20 disposals is typically all they need to have influence on the game.

Engine mid: TYPICALLY... endurance athletes (high TOG), creative, high IQ, agility and/or speed (but not explosive), good two-way runners (get back to defend and help with transition), high handball to kick ratio, moderate meters gained, less physical (usually lots of loose ball gets). 30 disposals is typical for a good game.

Defensive mid: TYPICALLY... many of the engine mid attributes (but with maybe slightly less skill), anchors the midfield, good size/strong, defensive mindset and positioning, high tackle count, balanced handball to kick ratio, disrupts oppo setups, clamps a player, blocks/creates space, usually around 15-20 disposals while disrupting the opposition is a great game.

When you dont have the mix of these players midfields can sometimes look out of balance or one-paced. So having a gun in each of these role types is (generally speaking) the ideal scenario for match day coaches.

Now lets talk reality… Not every team has this mix of players available, and certainly not all the time, because of various factors such as injuries, suspensions, match-day rotations etc. etc. So what is a coach to do?

The quick one I want to cover off first is the Striker role. Gun Striker mids are rare commodities!! Not every team has one, but everyone wants one (or two). In fact, when I think of guys like this only few really stand out to me... Petracca, Young, Reid, Warner, JHF, DeGoey, Heeney. I might be missing one or two, but generally most teams lack these players and either decide to just run with a 2nd Engine mid or try and pinch hit speedy guys (typically small forwards) through there throughout the match.

Engine mids are common commodities. Gun Defensive mids are less common, but many Engine mids (especially those lacking the highest levels of skill) are often tasked with performing the defensive role.

With all that established, and GENERALLY SPEAKING, if 1x Striker mid 1x Engine mid and 1x Defensive mid roles can not be obtained, coaches fall back too 2x Engine mids 1x Defensive mid role. Essentially, coaches almost always, rely on that Defensive mid role to negate the offensive threat of the opposition (player and/or positioning to guard against the ball getting in offensive space).

This brings me onto Hewett. He is widely regarded as one of the best defensive mids in the comp. All of Walsh, Cripps, Lord, Elijah, Doc, Jagga, Ben etc. play engine or offensive roles. How anyone can say any of these players can push Hewett out of the team I believe does not have a firm grasp of how centre bounce stoppage work happens and the roles that get performed in there.

Take Port as an example. Have you ever seen a centre bounce with all of Butters, Rozee and JHF is there? Don’t go looking for footage, because I can tell you the answer is no… you never have. Why? Well JHF is a Strike mid and Butters and Rozee and Engine mids who both have a tendency to be offensive. If they don’t win the ball it would be a certain goal opportunity to the oppo every time. That is why I think Drews year was incredibly underrated. In fact, all good defensive mids go relatively unheralded compared to their other mids.

I look at the two grand finalists as no better examples of teams with gun defensive mids in Rowbottom and Dunkley and what they do for their teams. Everyone pumps up Heeney and Warner, but without Rowbottom, they cannot do what they do (without looking incredibly silly at times).

We have an amazing defensive mid in Hewett. I firmly believe he is best 22 if we are to go deep next year. But I am happy to have the discussions on who might take over that role. So if not Hewett, I think the question should really be phrased more along the lines of:

If not Hewett playing as the defensive mid, who else do you think could perform that sacrificial role?

I should point out that I have not mentioned Cerra (or Kennedy for obvious reasons). But I have noticed he also plays a lot more of that defensive mid role this year, especially around stoppages. I think he has copped a lot of flack. Injuries aside, I feel for him now that he has been playing the sacrificial defensive mid role more. Defence is not as sexy as offence. And Cerra was brought across for his offensive talents. But maybe Voss is grooming him as the Hewett replacement? Either way, Hewett is our best defensive mid for mine.

BlueNath I appreciate the input

Don’t even mind the terms

My perspective is that we haven’t and still don’t have a Striker Mid - we tend to have one who sets up defensively (Hewett or Cerra if fit) and two engines

You can see my reassessment below of how with our list I think our midfield will function in 2025 - with all fit and firing

I have taken time off Fogarty, Elijah and Docherty in the middle, thinking that Smith will be taking that time - yep I get that people think Smith is 1st year, but I could see him playing as a small forward and half the time in the middle (not quite Striker like but a POD) - as a small forward with high Footy IQ it can’t be worse then Durdin/Motlop of late

Ruck Rover (defensive): Hewitt (55%) Cerra (35%) Docherty (10%)
Rover (inside out - Engine): Walsh (60%) Smith (40%)
Centre (inside - Engine): Cripps (75%) Cerra (25%)
Wing: O Hollands (80%) Walsh (20%)
Wing: Acres (80%) Docherty (20%)
Half Forward (d): Fogarty (75%) Cerra (15%) Hewett (10%)
Half Forward (high hf & +1 at stoppages): Smith (30%) Kemp (20%) Docherty (45%) Cripps (5%)

To me the following are the next in line for these roles:
Lord - defensive mid, engine
E Hollands - high half forward, feel it’s either Docherty or E Hollands, don’t think they will get many minutes in middle
Binns - wing and might start if O Hollands plays back
Cottrell - defensive half forward

 

[koutashoulda1_1]

Is “defensive mid” the new term for a player that “u” like but is slow, b grade & isn’t a great disposer of the ball?

Lays tackles, works hard but “defensive mid”

He doesn’t look to good defensively if theres a sort of break away from the opposition or they are moving the ball well in transition, 1 quick step and he’s toast.

It doesn’t help spread and movement, when he’s moving the ball backwards & has 1 and only 1 position to play - he’s not even a “gap” fill anywhere else

If u want defensive play Cinc as a tagger, its time to stop playing the same slow combo & expecting new results

Hewett plays run-with roles - tags but gets his own ball too. Cinc is a pure tagger. Hewett can be trusted at CB too, the two can't be compared.

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

What I can’t work out is if every Carlton player is a star of the game, and our young players are ready to push them out how we will lose a game for the next 3 seasons.

Carlton supporters ridiculously overrate their players. And the longer the preseason goes the better they get!

After the Brisbane finals game there was a sense that our players aren’t that good but that passed very quickly.

I'll challenge you to name another team that could lose the following players to injury - or have them play quarter baked and still mount a serious finals' challenge (the table below is the 2023 John Nicholls' vote):



1. #1 ruck - TDK - one of the best handful of rucks going around. Destroyed (literally) in rd. 19 by Xerri, mia come finals (should not have played the final).
2. Sam Walsh - player of the 2023 finals' series - was going at about 40% in 2024 - played 20 games, shouldn't have....
3. Charlie Curnow - still the best key forward in the game (injured since round 17 - arguably earlier - foolishly kept playing him...). Absent come finals ...
4. Adam Cerra - repeated hammys - even when out there was way undercooked....
5. Doc - should never have played that finals match.

Throw in lesser lights like Cotters, JSOS injured most of the year. Saad too, look hampered a lot.... Fogarty too missed 6 weeks mid season and wasn't the same on return...

 

[BluStreak]

For me, if you are suggesting playing Jagga Rnd1 onwards then he needs to be played as a small forward, with stints as a mid late in the quarters when everyone else is tired.

 

[bigblueboy]

There have been a couple of times where our recruiting team has denied this.

On the day 1 footage shown on carltonfc.com.au Austin and Agresta clearly state that Jagga is our number one target prior to the Tigers taking their first pick.

On afl.com.au today Cal Twomey has an article going through all of the wheeling and dealings on draft night. He states that Carlton had let the narrative that osullivan was our prime target run, but that Jagga was always our clear preference with our first pick as we believed he was the best player in the draft.

Smith became our preferred pick when it was clear North would take FOS - this occurred well before draft day.

 

[TheReal99prelim]

What I can’t work out is if every Carlton player is a star of the game, and our young players are ready to push them out how we will lose a game for the next 3 seasons.

Carlton supporters ridiculously overrate their players. And the longer the preseason goes the better they get!

After the Brisbane finals game there was a sense that our players aren’t that good but that passed very quickly.

The health of our list, insane selections on the Thursday night, confusion/distraction/maybe even angst that resulted and the baffling use of the sub played a significant role in what we saw against Brisbane

I can't quantify the significance but mindset can either be your greatest asset or greatest liability (0-60 is head, not body!!)

 

[BlueJet]

I think it is a matter of whether those words are adding anything. Most of these types of terms come from commentators and data analysts who are essentially being paid to keep revolutionising things. Sometimes their terms will add to our understanding of the game, sometimes they won’t. I will leave it for better judges than me to determine where striker mid fits on that continuum.

Definitely mate, the transfer from footy smarts to footy iq, for example, makes me laugh.
When it's a change to add flavour to the coverage, i'm less enthused than when it describes a position or role tbh, as there's more shades of grey to the latter.

 

[tarczonandjane]

Definitely mate, the transfer from footy smarts to footy iq, for example, makes me laugh.
When it's a change to add flavour to the coverage, i'm less enthused than when it describes a position or role tbh, as there's more shades of grey to the latter.

One of my favourites back in the day was “scoreboard pressure.” Just a fancy way of saying one side has kicked a few goals (or needs to).

 

[teagueyubeauty]

Smith became our preferred pick when it was clear North would take FOS - this occurred well before draft day.

Nope, Jagga number 1 on our board well out


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[BigBreakfast]

Yeah, can I get you to run down to "striker mid"? Those are parts on the places on the ground.

Sure people don't necessarily play in those specific roles, and "rover" is not a place on the ground either - but those positions have been terms and stated roles that everyone has known for 100 years.

Go down to the local leagues and say to the coach "who is playing striker mid this week"? Or to the VFL, or to any AFL coach. It's a nonsensical fad term, that has caught fire on this forum, but is meaningless elsewhere.

I get that certain players fall into certain idealistic categories, that's fine. But so say we need X made up position, and Y made up position is laughable.

It’s what the media have called Dustin Martin for years! Stringer too, minus the actual striking of course.

Lalor was labelled a striker as he is seen as a Dusty replacement

 

[Jimmae]

The thing is you still need outside players in the centre. Players that can recieve. You cant just have 3 typical inside mids and rely on wingers to do that because they simply arent there. Need a balance.

Post CBA it obviously doesnt matter as much, but even then the wingers normally hold their width.

I agree about putting quick receivers in the centre bounce mix, ideally with the ability to break a tackle. Walsh isn't that kind of player, and is often unable to recover and pressure if the ball doesn't get out to his breaking run.

Voss is content largely having him defend at the centre bounce.

 

[Bee Vee]

If he's fit, I expect Jagga to play starting midfield in Round 1 and rightly so. He offers a skillset we lack. The ability to get out the front of stoppage with agility and burst. It will significantly assist our forwards the opportunity to utilise the corridor.
It may only be for 10 minutes per quarter but it will be worthwhile.
As for Hewett, he's a great warrior but I hope his role becomes more redundant. The inclusion of Smith and a fit Cerra will give us more defensive accountability around stoppages. Inside chase pressure and willingness to work defensively.
I'd like to see Lord play a larger role. Great hands below his knees and more penetration in his kicking than Hewett.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

Lord seems to create those forward handball plays from CBA that were a hallmark of how we played in H1 of 2022. He works particularly well with Cripps

 

[Soapy V]

For me, if you are suggesting playing Jagga Rnd1 onwards then he needs to be played as a small forward, with stints as a mid late in the quarters when everyone else is tired.

I don't see it this way. Some players can just step up straight away. NDaicos, Walsh, Judd etc

From the limited interviews and training and games I've seen he just looks like he will handle the step up. He is a natural mid. I can see him playing some HB or Wing but it wouldn't surprise me if he just steps straight into the middle in 2025

He just seems to have time, the skill and that mental toughness to do it

 

[Soapy V]

I don't care who plays in Best 23 but I'm really looking forward to a fit group of Cripps Walsh Cerra Docherty Elijah Hewett Smith Lord B.Camporeale all fighting for a spot in our midfield.

When that happens we are in a great spot