Play Nice 47th President of the United States: Donald Trump - Part 20: If you want Capitalism, you got it

[Gethelred]

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USA - 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

Continued from Part 1 - https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2024-us-presidential-election-trump-vs-harris.1383317/

www.bigfooty.com

USA - Kamala Harris Concedes. God Help America

www.bigfooty.com

< - Trump 19 is back there.

 

[cotter101]

GP is correct.

There is alot to play out between now and Jan 6 2025.

Definitely going to need to up the security again.

 

[captain blood 17]

GP is correct.

There is alot to play out between now and Jan 6 2025.

Like?

 

[IlovethePies]

I disagree they live paycheck by paycheck and are too scared to do anything that jeopardises that hence the minimum pay being stagnant for the last 30 odd years and the lack of voting force/protest for any sort of working reforms

The billionaires have beaten them down so hard with the false hope that they will be in that very small club one day

The mass deportation and tariff is going to make their lives even worse and they voted for this ..absolute idiots

Youre wrong to think that the victory of Harris would have been better.

What was her program?

1)Continued funding for the genocide in Gaza and the war against Russia in Ukraine. This massive military expenditure would be funded by massive cuts to social spending on public health and education, infrastructure etc

2) Contineued support for the enrichment of the billionaires. In her debate against Trump, she claimed that her policies would be far more profitable for Wall St than those of Trump

3) Continued militarism. She declared that her aim was to make the US "the most lethal military forces in the world".

4) Adoption of Trump's own program of xenophobia and border hysteria.

If she had won the election, far sooner than later, her policies would have provoked mass outrage due to the pouring of funds into the military, the cuts to schools and hospitals, the continuing imposition of below inflation wages.

The Democrats are deeply interconnected with the Pentagon. She would have had no hesitation in calling in the military to deal with the inevitable domestic opposition.

There was literally no choice in this election. The working class was disenfranchised.

This will be clear to millions in a very short time.

The crucial question is to build a party in the working class which will defend its class interests.

 

[Strange Cat]

Youre wrong to think that the victory of Harris would have been better.

What was her program?

1)Continued funding for the genocide in Gaza and the war against Russia in Ukraine. This massive military expenditure would be funded by massive cuts to social spending on public health and education, infrastructure etc

2) Contineued support for the enrichment of the billionaires. In her debate against Trump, she claimed that her policies would be far more profitable for Wall St than those of Trump

3) Continued militarism. She declared that her aim was to make the US "the most lethal military forces in the world".

4) Adoption of Trump's own program of xenophobia and border hysteria.

If she had won the election, far sooner than later, her policies would have provoked mass outrage due to the pouring of funds into the military, the cuts to schools and hospitals, the continuing imposition of below inflation wages.

The Democrats are deeply interconnected with the Pentagon. She would have had no hesitation in calling in the military to deal with the inevitable domestic opposition.

There was literally no choice in this election. The working class was disenfranchised.

This will be clear to millions in a very short time.

The crucial question is to build a party in the working class which will defend its class interests.

Disagree

Trump is literally the worse result for their standards of living and millions will suffer as a direct result. Trump is going to gut social security and Obamacare many many people are going to die over this election result

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Like?

A bullet?

 

[IlovethePies]

Disagree

Trump is literally the worse result for their standards of living and millions will suffer as a direct result. Trump is going to gut social security and Obamacare many many people are going to die over this election result

The Democrats also would have gutted social security and "Obama care". (BTW, Obamacare was a complete fraud. Do you actually believe that the bulk of the US population has access to proper health care? In the US, even a COVID vaccination must be paid for).

Living standards of the working class have collapsed over the duration of the Biden administration. That is ultimately the fundamental reason for Trump winning, since almost nothing else differed fundamentally in their policies.

You cannot expand war abroad without class war at home.

The Democrats have one foreign policy only: defend the positin of US imperialism by conquering markets, raw materials, sources of cheap labour militarily, and choking off their rivals.

This program is fundamentally the same as that of Trump.

 

[10571z]

Democrats are in all sorts. They threw everything they had and couldn’t do it.

 

[Partridge]

Im on my third whisky already tonight.


Really dont know how to proceed going foward.

This is utterly devastating and most of you have no idea how much the world has just changed. You will slowly learn in the years ahead.

I think the main thing people will learn in the coming days is who Grover Cleveland is, when they start Googling "two term Presidents".

 

[Strange Cat]

The Democrats also would have gutted social security and "Obama care". (BTW, Obamacare was a complete fraud. Do you actually believe that the bulk of the US population has access to proper health care? In the US, even a COVID vaccination must be paid for).

Living standards of the working class have collapsed over the duration of the Biden administration. That is ultimately the fundamental reason for Trump winning, since almost nothing else differed fundamentally in their policies.

You cannot expand war abroad without class war at home.

The Democrats have one foreign policy only: defend the positin of US imperialism by conquering markets, raw materials, sources of cheap labour militarily, and choking off their rivals.

This program is fundamentally the same as that of Trump.

Any proof of your actual claims in the bolded ? Trump has been very clear in gutting both programs for years

 

[IlovethePies]

Any proof of your actual claims in the bolded ? Trump has been very clear in gutting both programs for years

In assessing what any politician will do, we can't just rely on what they say. We must also consider the history of the political tendency that they respresent, and also the state of the world situation.

The US financial position in the world economy hangs by a thread. The US has a debt (amassed through repeated corporate bailouts ) which is now impossible to honour through "normal" means.

Should the financial markets lose faith that the US can honour this debt though, they will withdraw their investments from US bond markets and collapse the US dollar.

We are already seeing enormous pressures on the US dollar, reflected in the historic rise in gold prices.

The US capitalist class is hell bent on defending the dollar. This can only be achieved through wars of military conquest to seize resources, cheap labour, and block its rivals (China, Europe etc).

But how can this military expenditure be funded, with such an enormous debt threatening the survival of the US dollar?

Only through the gutting of all social expenditure.

The Democrats" entire foreign policy is based on the expansion of war. Necessarily, it is also based on the destruction of social spending.

Moreover, to defend the dollar, the profits of corporate America must also be defended, and again this can only be achieved through wage cuts, and intensifying exploitation of the working class.

Here is where Harris and Trump differ. Trump, as you have observed, is willing to immediately resort to dictatorial methods of rule in order to enforce class war at home and war abroad.

Harris on the other hand hopes to work with the AFL-CIO to keep the struggles of the working class suppressed, while she continues to ransack social spending and funnel society's resources into the military.

But Harris' methods will quickly exhaust themselves, and like other Democratic politicians before her, will have no hesitation in drawing in the military to enforce her political agenda.

 

[Strange Cat]

In assessing what any politician will do, we can't just rely on what they say. We must also consider the history of the political tendency that they respresent, and also the state of the world situation.

The US financial position in the world economy hangs by a thread. The US has a debt (amassed through repeated corporate bailouts ) which is now impossible to honour through "normal" means.

Should the financial markets lose faith that the US can honour this debt though, they will withdraw their investments from US bond markets and collapse the US dollar.

We are already seeing enormous pressures on the US dollar, reflected in the historic rise in gold prices.

The US capitalist class is hell bent on defending the dollar. This can only be achieved through wars of military conquest to seize resources, cheap labour, and block its rivals (China, Europe etc).

But how can this military expenditure be funded, with such an enormous debt threatening the survival of the US dollar?

Only through the gutting of all social expenditure.

The Democrats" entire foreign policy is based on the expansion of war. Necessarily, it is also based on the destruction of social spending.

Moreover, to defend the dollar, the profits of corporate America must also be defended, and again this can only be achieved through wage cuts, and intensifying exploitation of the working class.

Here is where Harris and Trump differ. Trump, as you have observed, is willing to immediately resort to dictatorial methods of rule in order to enforce class war at home and war abroad.

Harris on the other hand hopes to work with the AFL-CIO to keep the struggles of the working class suppressed, while she continues to ransack social spending and funnel society's resources into the military.

But Harris' methods will quickly exhaust themselves, and like other Democratic politicians before her, will have no hesitation in drawing in the military to enforce her political agenda.

So nothing?

Much as I expected

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

In reality this thread should be entitled, not the decline of Trump, but the decline of US democracy.
Why did Trump win?
There are very good reasons, and they are all due to the policies of the Democrats, and their genocide enabling candidate Karmela Harris:

If you think Harris is genocide enabling, what are you going to think of Trump? He is sure to give Israel carte blanche to do its worst. The Palestinians may as well dig mass graves for themselves.

Why did Trump win? I don't understand Americans. I imagine many of his supporters have their heads in the past and long to return to the old values and a time when the cost of living seemed manageable.

I don't like Trump or his policies but I think he has tapped into a deeply felt aversion to woke values and political correctness. That's the one element to his appeal to which I can relate. A similar type would never succeed here. There's not enough space in this tightly controlled country for a loose cannon like Trump to rant and rave without censure. People here are more willing and conditioned to accept the walls of free speech and action closing in around them.

 

[IlovethePies]

So nothing?

Much as I expected

Here is an article which you might like to read:

War, inequality and dictatorship: The critical issues excluded from the 2024 election

There is a pervasive sense that the political system is dysfunctional, incapable of responding to the needs of the people and heading toward violent domestic conflict.

www.wsws.org

Mod Edit: World Socialist Website

World Socialist Web Site - Bias and Credibility

LEFT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Overall, we rate the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) as strongly Left Biased based on promoting anti-capitalist, socialist viewpoints. We also rate them as Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to the use of some sources that promote conspiracy theories.

 

[IlovethePies]

If you think Harris is genocide enabling, what are you going to think of Trump? He is sure to give Israel carte blanche to do its worst. The Palestinians may as well dig mass graves for themselves.

Why did Trump win? I don't understand Americans. I imagine many of his supporters have their heads in the past and long to return to the old values and a time when the cost of living seemed manageable.

I don't like Trump or his policies but I think he has tapped into a deeply felt aversion to woke values and politically correctness. That's the one element to his appeal to which I can relate. A similar type would never succeed here. There's not enough space in this tightly controlled country for a loose cannon like Trump to rant and rave without censure. People here are more willing and conditioned to accept the walls of free speech and action closing in around them.

I think it is connected far more to the grotesque levels of inequality that prevail in the US.

Yes, Trump is just as genocidal as Harris. But there are millions of desperate workers and youth in the US living on minimum wages and now being eviscerated by inflation, who refuse to vote for more of the same.

They have been deluded by Trump on two fundamental issues:
a) Trump's absurd claim that he will "end war"

b) Trump's ability to at least acknowledge the economic catastrophe that has engulfed millions in the US population (Harris and the Democrats always claimed that the economy was "going well", and contemptuously refused to acknowledge the suffering of huge sections of the population)

In all other questions, there is no genuine difference between the proposals of Harris and those of Trump.

I also don't think Australia is immune from these processes. The Albanese Labor government is in a crisis, because it is deeply unpopular. Likewise the Liberals are despised because it is obvious they offer no alternative. Enter a Trump like figure who has the ability to at least acknowledge social despair, and lie through his teeth that somehow he will improve society.

There is only one way to stop the rise of fascism. It is to build an alternative, anti-capitalist and revolutionary party in the working class which will attract millions because it will put forward a program that articulates the class interests of the vast majority of society, not a miniscule capitalist oligarchy.

The source of war, dictatorship and social inequality is capitalism, and it must be abolished on a world scale.

 

[Seeds]

I think the main thing people will learn in the coming days is who Grover Cleveland is, when they start Googling "two term Presidents".

I just googled grover cleveland. I need more information?

 

[Partridge]

I just googled grover cleveland. I need more information?

Only other President who served two non-consecutive terms.

The other has orange hair, and is bad.

 

[Seeds]

A reminder of who the Trumpies are voting for (seen here with his late friend):

Do we count square in 1st colum and 2nd row?

I think its the correct answer. But i dont think the bots grading me think it is the right answer.

 

[Seeds]

Youre wrong to think that the victory of Harris would have been better.

What was her program?

1)Continued funding for the genocide in Gaza and the war against Russia in Ukraine. This massive military expenditure would be funded by massive cuts to social spending on public health and education, infrastructure etc

2) Contineued support for the enrichment of the billionaires. In her debate against Trump, she claimed that her policies would be far more profitable for Wall St than those of Trump

3) Continued militarism. She declared that her aim was to make the US "the most lethal military forces in the world".

4) Adoption of Trump's own program of xenophobia and border hysteria.

If she had won the election, far sooner than later, her policies would have provoked mass outrage due to the pouring of funds into the military, the cuts to schools and hospitals, the continuing imposition of below inflation wages.

The Democrats are deeply interconnected with the Pentagon. She would have had no hesitation in calling in the military to deal with the inevitable domestic opposition.

There was literally no choice in this election. The working class was disenfranchised.

This will be clear to millions in a very short time.

The crucial question is to build a party in the working class which will defend its class interests.

Why do you think trump isnt going to continue, let alone ramp up, the war on Gaza?

 

[IlovethePies]

Do we count square in 1st colum and 2nd row?

I think its the correct answer. But i dont think the bots grading me think it is the right answer.

It is much more enlightening to focus on what Harris would have offered instead.

No, she is not a convicted felon nor is she a fascist.

But she is a genocide enabler, and an enemy of the poor in her relentless demands for the death penalty to be inflicted when she was a prosecutor in California.

Maybe find some background on Harris to even up your overall analysis.

 

[IlovethePies]

Why do you think trump isnt going to continue, let alone ramp up, the war on Gaza?

I have answered this on numerous occasions above.

I do think Trump will continue the war in Gaza and ultimately against Iran.

But that is no different from Harris.

Both Harris and Trump are two sides of a poisoned chalice.

 

[Seeds]

I have answered this on numerous occasions above.

I do think Trump will continue the war in Gaza and ultimately against Iran.

But that is no different from Harris.

Both Harris and Trump are two sides of a poisoned chalice.

So it would have no impact on the vote for harris then

 

[Seeds]

It is much more enlightening to focus on what Harris would have offered instead.

No, she is not a convicted felon nor is she a fascist.

But she is a genocide enabler, and an enemy of the poor in her relentless demands for the death penalty to be inflicted when she was a prosecutor in California.

Maybe find some background on Harris to even up your overall analysis.

What has death penalty got to do with the poor?

And given trumps comments he also clearly supports the death penalty.

 

[IlovethePies]

So it would have no impact on the vote for harris then

Precisely.

If you are an Arab American citizen, or simply a struggling working class family that hates war, why would you vote for Harris??

Biden and she are the leading arsonists in igniting war (in Ukraine, and in Gaza, as well as Lebanon, Iran being the ultimate target)

So, under these conditions, the two cancel out. You might even hate Harris more because of her, and Biden's disgusting hypociricy, in occasionally professing their "concern" for the death count in Gaza.

What decided this election was the fact that almost on every question there was no genuine difference between Harris and Trump.

Therefore, the economy took precedence.

Trump exploited the social despair by going into working class, impoverished neighbourhoods and pretending that he cared about their suffering and that his program would improve their lives.

Harris ignored them and instead promoted her recipe for economic prosperity: continuing to enrich the corporate billionaires.

Trump has the same recipe, but he covered it up. Harris didn't.

 

[IlovethePies]

What has death penalty got to do with the poor?

And given trumps comments he also clearly supports the death penalty.

Look, the point I am making above all is that there is no meaningful difference between teh program of Harris and the program of Trump.

Every time I criticise Harris, you say"Trump is just as bad".

Yes, true. They are fundamentally the same, because they both represent the same class interests, those of a miniscule corporate and financial oligarchy.

Therefore, it is a completely bankrupt perspective to try to oppose Trump by hoping for Harris to win.

A radical alternative is necessary to break the Gordian knot.

 

[IlovethePies]

What has death penalty got to do with the poor?

What has the death penalty got to do with the poor??

The overwhelming majority of the victims of the death penalty in the us are the impoverished, the mentally and intellectually disabled, the socially deprived....