A different view - Craig and the Club

[Pilchard_Adams]

nothing has changed in these 2 years to make that any more ludicrous. when you hit maximum density it stays a constant.



1. in no way is he a tremendous coach, that's just lazy hyperbole. he's barely been a competent coach in recent times. well I say that, but i guess it depends on if you think results are relevant or not

2. Riewoldt is one of the great players of his generation, he has nothing in common with Craig. maybe we should compare Matthew Knights to Chris Judd or luke hodge.

So greatness can only be measured by premierships for a coach? But as a player, greatness is measured by many other attributes?

 

[anthc]

So if a bunch of kicks all over the field landed 10-20-30 metres one way or the other what then?
Absurd reasoning. That it makes it to the scorecard simply means it was in a passage of play where the clanger didn't come earlier.
you kick from past 50 in rushed manners you lead to pockets and kick from there, get boundary free kicks blaze away, shank under chasing pressure, these things in a game where players are clearly more fatigued then ever before bring the likely hood of skill errors up in all parts of the ground.
At what time is kurt tippet most likely to kick poorly? Lance Franklin? Riewoldt? these are players that are in scoring range often, add players that are not that are mid fielders or ruck men that have angles and breezes to negotiate.
There are plenty of teams that dominate teams for great portions of the match but cough it up without scoring, a point is a better result then nothing which could just as well happened.
Fortunately for port it got the majority of it's goals when they needed them from the goalsquare generally from utter stupidity on senior players part or just pushing forward with strength and elusiveness from stoppages the crows being made to look completely uninterested or able to lay hand on ball or player.

I like this Carmo guy, wonder if he is from balaclava.

Wtf! absurd reasoning!, as i said the Hawks and Carlton missed a lot of kickable goals with little to no pressure. THESE MISSES kept us in the game. the majority of your post makes little to no sense

 

[anthc]

No-one would deny it... but he's been an AFL coach for nearly 25 years. Craig is entering his 7th year as coach.

NC has never bottomed out or benefited from inheriting the WAFL all stars. He has the best winning percentage of any long standing coach in the league. Wether you like it or not he's gonna be around for a while yet so suck it up.

You have no credibility on the topic... you're posting history is littered with fantastical 'NC hasn't got the x factor, plan b, get Mick Malthouse he's better' type rubbish.

You forget that there were a few good teams of the early nineties, such a Hawthorn, Geelong and Essendon, even Carlton all containing there fair share of stars champ. West coast were not the only good team back then.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

It makes me chuckle that you can use this stat with a straight face when Leigh Matthews, Kevin Sheedy, Mick Malthouse, Malcolm Blight and David Parkin are all ranked below him.

Nobody remembers winning percentages. Nobody. Success in football is judged on premierships. Sitting above five of the six most successful coaches of the modern era in winning percentage, and not having a premiership, is not a point in Neil Craig's favour. Nor is it even remotely flattering.

Here's one more for you - just to show how meaningless a stat it can be:

AFC winning percentage - 52.6%
PAFC winning percentage - 54.1%

Leigh Matthews coached Collingwood for 10 years for a total of 1 flag. Then went to Brisbane to coach a team that was merged a few years earlier, and had years of top draft picks from both lions and bears low finishes. Would you consider Matthews a coaching legend after 10 years and 1 flag at collingwood?

Sheedy was coach for some 26 years at Essendon. Won 4 flags. Thats 1 every 6.5 years.
Some interesting Sheedy facts:
1981 was knocked out of finals by lower placed fitzroy
1982 was knocked out of finals by a lower placed nth melb
1983 won a GF from 4th (final 5 system) after a win loss ratio of 2W 4L against the 3 teams above them
1984 essendon best team wins flag
1985 wins 2nd flag
1986 knocked out of finals immediately
1987 and 1988 failed to make finals
1989 finished 2nd on ladder, knocked out in prelim by same team who they beat 2 weeks earlier by 10+ goals, this finals series 1w 2L
1990 lost GF to collingwood, lost to the pies twice in the same finals series. Again finals record of 1w 2 loss this year
1991 finished 6th, knocked out immediately in finals
1992 failed to make finals

CBF looking up any more. But as you can see there are many failed finals attempts, and i think Sheedy could possibly have more finals losses than wins. Also had periods of 7 and 8 years between flags.

Mick Malthouse, well we know his record. Gifted flags at WC and 10 years to get first flag at the pies. Nothing at Footscray. 8 years before first flag at wc, and about 14 years between 2nd flag and 3rd flag.

Blight - 3 failed GF attempts at Geelong. If Craig had this kind of record people would be out to snipe him. Yet, he came to the crows and won 2 flags. 2 flags in 11 years as well as several sackings.

Parkin - Probably the best of them all, winning around 5 flags i think.


Honestly I think it is pathetic how some pig headed supporters play the blame game, and always point at the coach. Have a look at Sheedy, he was knocked out of finals by lesser teams, knocked out in straight sets, knocked out when finishing high up the ladder. Also had periods of 7 and 8 years of nothing. Sheedys 1987 to 1992 are very similar to craigs time as coach. Malthouse, without his gifted flags, has 1 flag in 10 years. Also had a few failed finals attempts.

Craig has now entered his 7th season as coach and has managed to get the team within a handful of points of grand finals. Was it Neils fault that a player kicked the ball out of bounds on the full, was it neils fault Adelaides rucks went down with knee injuries, was it neils fault Rutten pulled Anthonys arm, and the umpire saw it but didnt see medhurst infringing on otten in the same contest?

He has a young squad, I say give the guy a shot.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

Life is not black and white, SP. Craig doesn't have to be either a brilliant coach or a terrible coach, there are much more fitting descriptions in between. Yes, having a strong winning percentage is a point in Neil Craig's favour. Yes, it is "remotely flattering". Of course it counts when trying to determine his merits as a coach.

Is it the ultimate measure? Of course not. And in the end, if he fails to get a premiership for us, history will not view him as a great coach regardless of his winning percentage. However, this notion that winning percentage is meaningless, that premierships and finals victories are the only measure of a coaches merits and everything else is meaningless is, frankly, ridiculous. The implied corollary of said notion that winning 13 games and losing a final is a worse coaching result than winning 10 games and not having the chance to lose a final is even more ridiculous.

That Craig hasn't been able to turn his well-above-average minor round record into finals success is a failing, certainly, but it does not serve to erase that minor round record from consideration.

As usual, said perfectly

 

[ringo200]

1 flag every 6.5 years is an incredible record, not sure what point you're trying to make there.

 

[Allbetsroff]

Leigh Matthews coached Collingwood for 10 years for a total of 1 flag. Then went to Brisbane to coach a team that was merged a few years earlier, and had years of top draft picks from both lions and bears low finishes. Would you consider Matthews a coaching legend after 10 years and 1 flag at collingwood?

Sheedy was coach for some 26 years at Essendon. Won 4 flags. Thats 1 every 6.5 years.
Some interesting Sheedy facts:
1981 was knocked out of finals by lower placed fitzroy
1982 was knocked out of finals by a lower placed nth melb
1983 won a GF from 4th (final 5 system) after a win loss ratio of 2W 4L against the 3 teams above them
1984 essendon best team wins flag
1985 wins 2nd flag
1986 knocked out of finals immediately
1987 and 1988 failed to make finals
1989 finished 2nd on ladder, knocked out in prelim by same team who they beat 2 weeks earlier by 10+ goals, this finals series 1w 2L
1990 lost GF to collingwood, lost to the pies twice in the same finals series. Again finals record of 1w 2 loss this year
1991 finished 6th, knocked out immediately in finals
1992 failed to make finals

CBF looking up any more. But as you can see there are many failed finals attempts, and i think Sheedy could possibly have more finals losses than wins. Also had periods of 7 and 8 years between flags.

Mick Malthouse, well we know his record. Gifted flags at WC and 10 years to get first flag at the pies. Nothing at Footscray. 8 years before first flag at wc, and about 14 years between 2nd flag and 3rd flag.

Blight - 3 failed GF attempts at Geelong. If Craig had this kind of record people would be out to snipe him. Yet, he came to the crows and won 2 flags. 2 flags in 11 years as well as several sackings.

Parkin - Probably the best of them all, winning around 5 flags i think.


Honestly I think it is pathetic how some pig headed supporters play the blame game, and always point at the coach. Have a look at Sheedy, he was knocked out of finals by lesser teams, knocked out in straight sets, knocked out when finishing high up the ladder. Also had periods of 7 and 8 years of nothing. Sheedys 1987 to 1992 are very similar to craigs time as coach. Malthouse, without his gifted flags, has 1 flag in 10 years. Also had a few failed finals attempts.

Craig has now entered his 7th season as coach and has managed to get the team within a handful of points of grand finals. Was it Neils fault that a player kicked the ball out of bounds on the full, was it neils fault Adelaides rucks went down with knee injuries, was it neils fault Rutten pulled Anthonys arm, and the umpire saw it but didnt see medhurst infringing on otten in the same contest?

He has a young squad, I say give the guy a shot.

He has had a couple of shots, he failed.

7 years is enough time to "have a shot" at a flag at most, at improving the side at the very least (the side has gotten worse over 7 years).

Matthews, Sheedy, Malthouse they all have won premierships as senior coaches, they are successful coaches because they have stood their on the last Saturday in September, victorious.

Neil Craig has had exactly zero success as a senior coach at all levels. He has had 7 years in the job, he is not a great coach, great coaches win premierships.

Neil Craig is in no way defensible, either deliver or piss off to the retirement village.

 

[Cap]

they weren't successful coaches until they won their first flag......

 

[Crow-mo]

FFS, you're just pigheaded on this - Malhouse was a failure at the bulldogs, and rode a dominant squad at WCE. Those draft concessions were the coach of those flags.

that makes no sense - he was such a failure at the bulldogs, he got a plum job leading a dominant squad at WCE. if you're going to make things up, at least be consistent with yourself.

At Collingwood, he got them to unsuccessful grand finals and then bottomed out to five wins. His ultimate place in history came in the last year.

he actually bottomed out over TWO seasons only (2004,2005). Craig has been "renovating" the list since 2007.

Craig came in to a mature team that many thought needed to bottom out and start again (which perhaps was true at some point), and through some truly innovative coaching tactics he created one of the best winning percentages for any coach in history.

that's just utter crap. we went 17-5 in 2005. that doesn't even get you first place in many years.

have you got Craig confused with Bomber thompson? it would explain how you could be so wrong in fact and conclusion.

But his fatal flaw is a coachingstyle that perhaps couldn't work in the increased heat of finals.

yeah, that doesn't matter at all

You can compare. Malthouse wins, but to just disregard Craig without acknowledging his winning percentage is pretty shallow.

trend lines, go draw one.

 

[Crow-mo]

in 2008 we did round 22 we defeat the western bulldogs by 9 points.

not very relevant to a discussion about 2009

 

[Crow-mo]

they weren't successful coaches until they won their first flag......

not really true. Malthouse was coach of the year in 1985 (over a back to back sheedy) and was regarded as one of the top coaches in the league for getting as much as he could out of limited resources.

culminating in him getting the job at WC (which was shocking at the time).

Coaches have always been feted for their relative achievements.

there is nothing relative about coaching a mature team, from a power club, and having 18 months of success and trending downwards ever since.

 

[ringo200]

we didn't beat a single top 4 team, not one!!

some contender

Round 1 we beat Collingwood.

I wouldn't say we were contenders that year as much as a very rough smokie for the flag. You have to finish top 4 to be a serious contender.

 

[Cap]

not really true. Malthouse was coach of the year in 1985 (over a back to back sheedy) and was regarded as one of the top coaches in the league for getting as much as he could out of limited resources.

culminating in him getting the job at WC (which was shocking at the time).

Coaches have always been feted for their relative achievements.

there is nothing relative about coaching a mature team, from a power club, and having 18 months of success and trending downwards ever since.

You would agree that if Craig wanted to, he could coach another team should the Crows give him the boot?

personally I think he would very easily and very quickly (subject to other coaches being cut of course).

That being said, it is getting harder and harder to defend Craigs position as the team falters.

 

[jenny61_99]

not really true. Malthouse was coach of the year in 1985 (over a back to back sheedy) and was regarded as one of the top coaches in the league for getting as much as he could out of limited resources.

culminating in him getting the job at WC (which was shocking at the time).

Coaches have always been feted for their relative achievements.

there is nothing relative about coaching a mature team, from a power club, and having 18 months of success and trending downwards ever since.

I just love this little man-love thing you have going for Malthouse. I swear you follow the wrong team.... hmm, or do you??

18 months of success? How many times have we missed the finals? Oh yes, that's right. ONCE.

 

[Huntercrow]

It's a little tiring reading the same old negative crap from the same old posters and moreso from the new ones that have signed up just to join the firing squad.

Their contributions are hardly original or worthy of reading as its the same rubbish dealt to us from last year.
As soon as we lose games you can bet your life these Keyboard Einsteins come out of hiding to vent their anger at the coaching staff the club the board the players the captain and particularly NC.
Unfortunately they have come out early this year so I guess we have to endure them for longer than usual.

With a young squad you need patience and that doesn't mean condemning them and the coach by round 5. I'm with NC, this squad could be anything within a few years and we have one of the best coaches of young men at the helm. I'm not saying he is perfect but I believe he is prepared to learn as he goes.

The year is young and we could yet be in for a good one.

 

[juice]

It's a little tiring reading the same old negative crap from the same old posters and moreso from the new ones that have signed up just to join the firing squad.

Their contributions are hardly original or worthy of reading as its the same rubbish dealt to us from last year.
As soon as we lose games you can bet your life these Keyboard Einsteins come out of hiding to vent their anger at the coaching staff the club the board the players the captain and particularly NC.
Unfortunately they have come out early this year so I guess we have to endure them for longer than usual.

With a young squad you need patience and that doesn't mean condemning them and the coach by round 5. I'm with NC, this squad could be anything within a few years and we have one of the best coaches of young men at the helm. I'm not saying he is perfect but I believe he is prepared to learn as he goes.

The year is young and we could yet be in for a good one.

Hunter, losing is not what bothers me, its how we lose. I was a massive Neil Craig fan but after the Port game I'm done. To lose the way we did was appauling. We have a history (under Neil) of getting a decent lead and then collapsing. Thats why Neil needs to go. At the end of this year there will be something amazing happening, the best coach in the game will finish coaching and will be available. I think we need to make a massive play for Mick Malthouse. We're a slim chance at best of getting him but we need to try. I agree we have an exciting young list but in 5-7 years time I don't want to be where St Kilda now is, having had a popular coach (Grant Thomas) lead their team. Most outside St Kilda doubted his ability although the players loved him. Now look at them, they have missed their chance because he couldn't coach but they didn't realise it until it was too late.

 

[juice]

It's a little tiring reading the same old negative crap from the same old posters and moreso from the new ones that have signed up just to join the firing squad.Their contributions are hardly original or worthy of reading as its the same rubbish dealt to us from last year.
As soon as we lose games you can bet your life these Keyboard Einsteins come out of hiding to vent their anger at the coaching staff the club the board the players the captain and particularly NC.
Unfortunately they have come out early this year so I guess we have to endure them for longer than usual.

With a young squad you need patience and that doesn't mean condemning them and the coach by round 5. I'm with NC, this squad could be anything within a few years and we have one of the best coaches of young men at the helm. I'm not saying he is perfect but I believe he is prepared to learn as he goes.

The year is young and we could yet be in for a good one.

Newbies are entitled to their opinion as well.

 

[Wood_Duck]

This has become a very boring thread. Seriously its all been said a squillion times before.

There will never be agreement on the relative merits of Malthouse and Craig in this forum.

 

[ManInTheArena]

Comparing Craig's finals record to Sheedy, Malthouse et al. is stupid. There is a massive sampling issue where the pool of games is 9 compared to 30-40 odd. You can't get a statistical gauge to compare off that.

In fact you can't really get much of a gauge at all regardless of comparisons with a pool of 9.

 

[Vader]

Hunter, losing is not what bothers me, its how we lose. I was a massive Neil Craig fan but after the Port game I'm done. To lose the way we did was appauling. We have a history (under Neil) of getting a decent lead and then collapsing. Thats why Neil needs to go.

They do have a habit of losing after gaining a lead, though I suspect that you'll find that all teams have done this from time to time.

The manner of the Port loss though was nothing like the "typical" Adelaide loss. The typical Adelaide loss involves the Crows building a lead, then either trying to defend it, or just plain slacking off and letting the other team back into the game. This is a far cry from what happened against Port. Against Port, they just gave up without a yelp. The players stopped trying. That's most unlike the Adelaide Crows that I know and love - and that's what was so upsetting.

 

[juice]

They do have a habit of losing after gaining a lead, though I suspect that you'll find that all teams have done this from time to time.

The manner of the Port loss though was nothing like the "typical" Adelaide loss. The typical Adelaide loss involves the Crows building a lead, then either trying to defend it, or just plain slacking off and letting the other team back into the game. This is a far cry from what happened against Port. Against Port, they just gave up without a yelp. The players stopped trying. That's most unlike the Adelaide Crows that I know and love - and that's what was so upsetting.

Mate I agree, that Port loss was gutting.

 

[porpoise]

It's a little tiring reading the same old negative crap from the same old posters and moreso from the new ones that have signed up just to join the firing squad.

Their contributions are hardly original or worthy of reading as its the same rubbish dealt to us from last year.
As soon as we lose games you can bet your life these Keyboard Einsteins come out of hiding to vent their anger at the coaching staff the club the board the players the captain and particularly NC.
Unfortunately they have come out early this year so I guess we have to endure them for longer than usual.

With a young squad you need patience and that doesn't mean condemning them and the coach by round 5. I'm with NC, this squad could be anything within a few years and we have one of the best coaches of young men at the helm. I'm not saying he is perfect but I believe he is prepared to learn as he goes.

The year is young and we could yet be in for a good one.

Brilliantly said.

It is a wonder why the usual trolls who call themselves Crows supporters on here even bother. What is their pay-off for being so negative? Compensation for something? Repressed anger? I wish they would piss off.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

It is a wonder why the usual trolls who call themselves Crows supporters on here even bother. What is their pay-off for being so negative? Compensation for something? Repressed anger? I wish they would piss off.

Maybe they're hoping for the same pay-off the Sydney fans got, who rallied against their club and DEMANDED that they appoint Paul Roos instead of Terry Wallace.

As a Crows fan, I see us recruiting a number of very talented young footballers. Those players then develop poorly, regress and get taught a game plan that doesn't work.

And the club thinks they are on the biggest winner since sliced bread.

 

[juice]

Maybe they're hoping for the same pay-off the Sydney fans got, who rallied against their club and DEMANDED that they appoint Paul Roos instead of Terry Wheeler.

As a Crows fan, I see us recruiting a number of very talented young footballers. Those players then develop poorly, regress and get taught a game plan that doesn't work.

And the club thinks they are on the biggest winner since sliced bread.

Brilliantly said

 

[tinman]

We have a history (under Neil) of getting a decent lead and then collapsing. Thats why Neil needs to go.

Just this weekend - Port Power, North Melbourne and Hawthorn all lost after having sizeable leads. Sometimes I wonder if some of the posters here actually watch any other games?