Play Nice Admin, Finance, Members, Ratings, Crowds, Policies - Please refer to each sports own boards

[workhorse]

A pity then that even with the AFL's might the FFA werent able to drag the competition away from the dodgy dodgy kuwaities.

Qataries

 

[workhorse]

undermining might be too strong a word, especially for the participants in the conversation at hand.

But they certainly played hard (as they have every right to do), hard enough to suggest that they do not think soccer is so insignificant that they can put on their big show without it impacting the AFL. Obviously, you wouldnt want to move your season without comp, but ruling a stadium out for being used, is missing out on the revenue from renting that stadium. I know I know its much more complicated then that, but I think everyone can appreciate that the AFL was fighting for a position against a not insignificant foe, when if it was the quidditch world cup, I imagine they wouldnt give a shit about the stadium use so long as they werent on AFL days ( or ****** the turf).

The whole point of playing hard-ball was because the AFL was losing the ground entirely for a major portion of the season. There's already been countless examples of other sports being played at AFL venues during the AFL season because they had no impact on the fixture. Besides, wasn't the original point that the AFL doesn't give the A-League a moment's thought? Big difference between the A-League and the FIFA World Cup.

 

[papabear]

The whole point of playing hard-ball was because the AFL was losing the ground entirely for a major portion of the season. There's already been countless examples of other sports being played at AFL venues during the AFL season because they had no impact on the fixture. Besides, wasn't the original point that the AFL doesn't give the A-League a moment's thought? Big difference between the A-League and the FIFA World Cup.

I agree, I am just making the point that there are always bigger fish in the sea.

 

[workhorse]

I agree, I am just making the point that there are always bigger fish in the sea.

Off-topic to the current discussion but I want to ask before I forget. It probably goes back to the discussion on crowds and why the NRL crowds are so inferior to the AFL. As an NRL fan, in any given year, would you rather NSW win State of Origin, or Canberra Raiders win the premiership? Would you say your opinion is generally shared by most NRL fans? Interested to know.

 

[Gigantor]

undermining might be too strong a word, especially for the participants in the conversation at hand.

But they certainly played hard (as they have every right to do), hard enough to suggest that they do not think soccer is so insignificant that they can put on their big show without it impacting the AFL. Obviously, you wouldnt want to move your season without comp, but ruling a stadium out for being used, is missing out on the revenue from renting that stadium. I know I know its much more complicated then that, but I think everyone can appreciate that the AFL was fighting for a position against a not insignificant foe, when if it was the quidditch world cup, I imagine they wouldnt give a shit about the stadium use so long as they werent on AFL days ( or ****** the turf).

Firstly, the whole voting process was so corrupt, what the AFL did or didn't do had nothing to do with it, and our final bid was embarassing. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the consultants who took our $40 mill scammed us, were on the take from other bidders, and helped us assemble a truly embarassing bid capable of attracting only one vote.

Also, I approach the world cup fiasco as follows: the FFA saw the world cup as an opportunity to kick start the sport in Australia and were looking forward to billions of dollars in stadiums being delivered to them gratis. They didn't succeed, and such is life but we can't blame them for trying, we all would have given it a twirl if we were in the same boat. Another approach might be to build the game where they control a dozen soccer specific stadiums (like most countries in the world), and then put in a bid to host the world cup, with the soccer specific stadiums already in existence and ready to host with no need to get any support from any other sport.

 

[BobbyMorri]

Firstly, the whole voting process was so corrupt, what the AFL did or didn't do had nothing to do with it, and our final bid was embarassing. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the consultants who took our $40 mill scammed us, were on the take from other bidders, and helped us assemble a truly embarassing bid capable of attracting only one vote.

Also, I approach the world cup fiasco as follows: the FFA saw the world cup as an opportunity to kick start the sport in Australia and were looking forward to billions of dollars in stadiums being delivered to them gratis. They didn't succeed, and such is life but we can't blame them for trying, we all would have given it a twirl if we were in the same boat. Another approach might be to build the game where they control a dozen soccer specific stadiums (like most countries in the world), and then put in a bid to host the world cup, with the soccer specific stadiums already in existence and ready to host with no need to get any support from any other sport.

i dont think the FFA aim was to grow the sport. Frank Lowy had a dream and that was to host the world cup. i think it was just that simple. it was a nice dream but i kinda happy we didnt win with hindsight. Qatar will be the best karma for Sepp and his buddies at FIFA. and it will let out stadiums grow naturally.

that last point is completely unrealistic in Australia. not even the AFL own their stadiums or have full ownership. every sport in this country rents a stadium. very few own it. that is because most stadiums are built with public money.

any world bid, be it Olympic, rugby, cricket or soccer, needs the support of the other codes in some way or another. the AFL tried to protect its shareholder's interests so you cant hate them on that. i just wish they went another way about it. the same goes with the FFA handling of the whole affair as well. it was just messy.

it will be interesting to see if the FFA have learnt anything regarding demands for the upcoming Women's world cup bid for 2023. IMO, we should team up with NZ just to make it easier for us.

 

[NoobPie]

i dont think the FFA aim was to grow the sport. Frank Lowy had a dream and that was to host the world cup. i think it was just that simple. it was a nice dream but i kinda happy we didnt win with hindsight. Qatar will be the best karma for Sepp and his buddies at FIFA. and it will let out stadiums grow naturally.

that last point is completely unrealistic in Australia. not even the AFL own their stadiums or have full ownership. every sport in this country rents a stadium. very few own it. that is because most stadiums are built with public money.

any world bid, be it Olympic, rugby, cricket or soccer, needs the support of the other codes in some way or another. the AFL tried to protect its shareholder's interests so you cant hate them on that. i just wish they went another way about it. the same goes with the FFA handling of the whole affair as well. it was just messy.

it will be interesting to see if the FFA have learnt anything regarding demands for the upcoming Women's world cup bid for 2023. IMO, we should team up with NZ just to make it easier for us.

Hilarious false equivalence

It was the ffa that created the mess. It was their World Cup that they wanted to host in the afl's season using the afl's grounds requiring for the afl to suspend their season and relinquish long term contract rights to stadiums they have built. They conducted themselves appallingly to this end, with a disturbing lack of respect and entitlement

To equate this with the afl standing its ground accomodating another sports World Cup bid is almost to engage in self parody

What is certainly parodic is the 2022 World Cup now being played in November December. This after the cultural cringers assured us that the all important European soccer leagues couldn't shut down their seasons while demanding the afl shut down theirs

 

[bigleague]

Off-topic to the current discussion but I want to ask before I forget. It probably goes back to the discussion on crowds and why the NRL crowds are so inferior to the AFL. As an NRL fan, in any given year, would you rather NSW win State of Origin, or Canberra Raiders win the premiership? Would you say your opinion is generally shared by most NRL fans? Interested to know.

Every single NRL fan would rather their club win a premiership than their state win an origin series, as would every player. One is three games a year, the other is being the best of 16 clubs after an entire season. Origin is an event, it captures interest from those who don't necessarily follow the NRL week to week, not at the expense of those who do.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Hilarious false equivalence

It was the ffa that created the mess. It was their World Cup that they wanted to host in the afl's season using the afl's grounds requiring for the afl to suspend their season and relinquish long term contract rights to stadiums they have built. They conducted themselves appallingly to this end, with a disturbing lack of respect and entitlement

To equate this with the afl standing its ground accomodating another sports World Cup bid is almost to engage in self parody

What is certainly parodic is the 2022 World Cup now being played in November December. This after the cultural cringers assured us that the all important European soccer leagues couldn't shut down their seasons while demanding the afl shut down theirs

That is exactly right.

I remember all the soccer fans saying it had to be in the AFL season, it just had to be, there was no way around it.

i also remember the FFA or whatever they called themselves then parading round FIFA bosses at Etihad behind the AFL's back.

Frank Lowy wanted the WC, but he also wanted to destroy the AFL at the same time, not sure which he wanted more.

 

[Rob]

Every single NRL fan would rather their club win a premiership than their state win an origin series, as would every player. One is three games a year, the other is being the best of 16 clubs after an entire season. Origin is an event, it captures interest from those who don't necessarily follow the NRL week to week, not at the expense of those who do.

Surely if that were true then you'd see a fair bit of outrage from fans of clubs heavily impacted with the loss of players during Origin?

You a Broncos fan? If so, i'd imagine you'd understand that more than anyone. It's not uncommon to see them go from near the top at the start of Origin season to basically out of contention at the end of it. All because of Origin decimating their team.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Firstly, the whole voting process was so corrupt, what the AFL did or didn't do had nothing to do with it, and our final bid was embarassing. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the consultants who took our $40 mill scammed us, were on the take from other bidders, and helped us assemble a truly embarassing bid capable of attracting only one vote.

Also, I approach the world cup fiasco as follows: the FFA saw the world cup as an opportunity to kick start the sport in Australia and were looking forward to billions of dollars in stadiums being delivered to them gratis. They didn't succeed, and such is life but we can't blame them for trying, we all would have given it a twirl if we were in the same boat. Another approach might be to build the game where they control a dozen soccer specific stadiums (like most countries in the world), and then put in a bid to host the world cup, with the soccer specific stadiums already in existence and ready to host with no need to get any support from any other sport.

 

[BringBackTorps]

How could soccer (or RL or RU) control their own stadiums? Their crowds are so poor, they are in no financial position to control anything re stadia.

It also raises the issue, with such poor & declining RL & RU crowds, & stagnant A League, of how the NSW govt. can justify spending $1,600,000 on Parramatta -& refurbishment of ANZ & SFS?

Edit: $1.6 billion

 

[The_Wookie]

i also remember the FFA or whatever they called themselves then parading round FIFA bosses at Etihad behind the AFL's back.

It wasnt just that, it was this glorious plan to refit the mcg for soccer...that they didnt tell the mcg about either. My favorite part was when Lowy was like "oh well we'll just have the Government take Etihad anyway..." lol.

 

[BringBackTorps]

For the record, comparatively:-
- I used to watch carltons games on a weekly basis, back when they were good. I would start watching them again if they ever had any hope.
- I have attended 2 x AFL GFs and watched more then I have missed.
- I have attended atleast 10+ swannies games in my time.. mostly swans v carlton.
- Half of my family is from the riverina, I have attended local AFL games and beeped my horns when family have kicked goals.
- I have played 2 x competitive AFL games (more then I have played competitive rugby league games).
- I have watched a ****load of carlton / swans / neutral afl games in my time.

When it comes to rugby league
- I support the canberra raiders / NSW religously
- was a tigers member when they were good (wife supports them) and attended games there
- I have watched a ****load x 2 of NRL in my time.
- I play oztag
- I played union / soccer growing up.

Obviously these arent the only two sports I have followed and played most of us on here follow quite a few sports.

I am certainly not impartial and I have openly admitted that, but I do detest being branded a troll or biased by someone who is more biased and has lass partiality and experience outside of his chosen sport then myself.

Big parts of Rugby Union officialdom (not all of them, lots of them dont give a shit anymore) has been actively trying to kill rugby league for yours and deathrides it at any given chance. Rugby League in australia has done the same with union.

That is fine, that is what is going to happen in a business competitors are going to try and eat each other. They may succeed, they may not. The AFL may do the eating (as it has done over the last 20 years) and may well be eaten.

Your views on SOS?

 

[bigleague]

Surely if that were true then you'd see a fair bit of outrage from fans of clubs heavily impacted with the loss of players during Origin?

You a Broncos fan? If so, i'd imagine you'd understand that more than anyone. It's not uncommon to see them go from near the top at the start of Origin season to basically out of contention at the end of it. All because of Origin decimating their team.

There's outrage every year at origin time and constant debate around it's scheduling.

 

[robbieando]

How could soccer (or RL or RU) control their own stadiums? Their crowds are so poor, they are in no financial position to control anything re stadia.

It also raises the issue, with such poor & declining RL & RU crowds, & stagnant A League, of how the NSW govt. can justify spending $1,600,000 on Parramatta -& refurbishment of ANZ & SFS?

They are spending more than $1.6 million on rebuilding Parramatta Stadium for two codes and the other grounds are justified by involvement from the SCG Trust (SFS) which in turn helps continue the redevelopment of the SCG (which has benefited the Swans) and ANZ gets the rebuild it should of got after the Olympics for Major Events. But if we are talking crowds needing to justify refurbishments of grounds, then please explain why Spotless Stadium was built before being justified for me? Don't want to think your applying double standards here.

 

[robbieando]

There's outrage every year at origin time and constant debate around it's scheduling.

and from next year moving back towards more a stand alone fixture so players aren't lost to their clubs as much as they are nor play the following match off a short turnaround.

 

[BringBackTorps]

They are spending more than $1.6 million on rebuilding Parramatta Stadium for two codes and the other grounds are justified by involvement from the SCG Trust (SFS) which in turn helps continue the redevelopment of the SCG (which has benefited the Swans) and ANZ gets the rebuild it should of got after the Olympics for Major Events. But if we are talking crowds needing to justify refurbishments of grounds, then please explain why Spotless Stadium was built before being justified for me? Don't want to think your applying double standards here.

Is the $1.6 billion for Parra, ANZ, & SFS all tax-payer funds? (And who else is contributing?).
If so, how was it justified, with no evidence of insufficient capacity in Syd. (Perth & Adelaide new stadia justified, as both cities regularly had very large AF crowds, big memberships,often sell-outs; MCG & Docklands were almost 100% privately funded)?
NSW roads, hospitals, schools etc obviously don't require any further NSW govt. funding?

SS, IIRC, was built at a "modest" cost of c.$220 million -far less than &1.6 billion. It is also used by the important Easter Royal Show, & for the BBL.
Also, given the AFL's record of achieving the biggest sporting average crowd in Syd. with the Swans, its successful expansion teams elsewhere, it was able to mount a strong case that GWS also would eventually attract large (by Syd. standards) crowds, by 2032.

Syd. is a city of c.5,000,000 pop. There is also an incontrovertible argument it needs more than 1 large oval stadium, for both AF & cricket. Plus, obviously, oval stadia can accomodate easily RL, RU, & soccer matches -so oval stadia are a far better & more efficient use of scarce tax-payer funds.
The AFL would have highlighted this oval ground flexibility -& also that Syd. has c. 8 rectangular stadia.

Edit: my mistake, SS upgrade cost c. $65 million only, of which AFL contributed $14 million.

 

[NoobPie]

They are spending more than $1.6 million on rebuilding Parramatta Stadium for two codes and the other grounds are justified by involvement from the SCG Trust (SFS) which in turn helps continue the redevelopment of the SCG (which has benefited the Swans) and ANZ gets the rebuild it should of got after the Olympics for Major Events. But if we are talking crowds needing to justify refurbishments of grounds, then please explain why Spotless Stadium was built before being justified for me? Don't want to think your applying double standards here.

The upgrade of the spotless stadium cost $65million of which the afl kicked in $14million iirc. It was justified in providing a home ground for a new $40million a year professional football club, and would host thousands of travelling fans each year.

You seriously comparing this with the $1.6billion rectangular white elephant project? How much have any of these sports contributed to those stadiums?

 

[BringBackTorps]

Out of curiosity, what are the registration numbers for SE Qld? An, albeit brief, look at annual reports for AFL Qld and the QRL only showed statewide figures.

A simple question -but the answer is complex, & sometimes controversial.

The Annual Reports of all the codes should easily provide these regd. nos. -but they are all very unreliable, due to double/triple counting of the same players.
All the codes happily & simply add up how many players there are in school comps., clubs, special code specific programs (eg Auskick, RU 7's, Game On, futsal, Gala days etc -& NRL appears now, for first time, to be including Touch, c.500,000!), & private football code training organisations.

The problem arises because all the codes don't cross-reference names -so one player could be counted 2/3/4 times, if playing multiple "variants" of a sport.
This problem of methodological bias is most likely to favour soccer, since soccer would now be played in c. 90% of schools in Aust. -AF, RL & RU far less (particularly RU, which is in very few schools).

The ABS & private cos. do surveys -but there might be problems with their accuracy also, as debated with the recent Roy Morgan RU furore (It is very hard to believe that regd. RU contact nos. have dropped by a massive 65% since 2001!). The polls are valuable for showing trends, if their methodology is sound.

A further advantage for soccer, in polls, is that it is very easy for a group (as small as 10) of friends (young or adult) to organise an informal soccer match,on a regular basis, with scoring & without a referee -they dont need marked lines, can use their own portable goals etc. These soccer players, who might not be in any formal school/club team, would be recorded in some polls.
This type of informal match would be impossible in AF, RL, or RU.

Rothfield, Masters, &Gould etc. have all in recent years expressed their concerns over falling contact RL regd. nos. The NRL Commission & Grant, in their current imbroglio with NRL clubs over distributing broadcasting revenues, have stated grassroots funding is the urgent priority, so reneged on NRL allocations.
On 8.3.17, it was reported that all the Canterbury & Western Suburbs Syd. Districts RL U13 -U17 First Division comps. had to merge -due to declining regd. nos. This issue is common in the nthn. states.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...l/news-story/10981dd31ed7ad0df6a3319acc002768
(Google also from Nov. 2015 "nrl local administrator declares rugby league dead")

There have also been expressions of great concern from many RU commentators re falling RU contact regd. nos. in recent times (but not contact RU 7's, which is growing, & touch/tag etc.)inc. A Jones, W Smith, S. Zavos.

It is generally accepted that soccer in Australia has approx. the same no. of regd. players as the other 3 codes combined. Most of these are school team players -& most of those aren't in clubs, & stop playing soccer after finishing secondary school.
Soccer also has a huge advantage over AF, RL & RU in female nos. -c.800,000 (again mainly in schools, who leave soccer after finishing). AF is closing this lead.
Soccer is regarded by most as a safe & simple game to play, coach & referee in schools. Male teachers in Primary Schools have declined significantly since the 70's -& for many female teachers, soccer is the "easy default" option for school sport.

Most schools have school athletic carnivals in summer -& most observers have noted that , in the sthn. states, the best athletes are generally involved also in AF. Similarly, in the nthn. states, the best school athletes are generally involved in RL & RU (but this is changing in Brisbane-GC-SC, & middle class areas of Syd., where RL & RU is losing some of this athletic dominance to AF).

Despite the record no. of regd. soccer players in Australia, Aust.'s performance in "junior age"international soccer tournaments is very poor, & deteriorating -eliminated in 1st round, for a long time.
For the senior team, Aust. has also declined in international rankings, c. 50 now. The Socceroos achieved a ranking of c. 24 about 8 years ago, but the "Golden Generation"are gone. Once we had many players in the EPL, German, Italian Leagues - now, none AFAIK, in any top European League.

These failings of junior & senior Aust. soccer are causing much public angst by Foster, Bosnich, & other soccer commentators.

 

[Gigantor]

The upgrade of the spotless stadium cost $65million of which the afl kicked in $14million iirc. It was justified in providing a home ground for a new $40million a year professional football club, and would host thousands of travelling fans each year.

You seriously comparing this with the $1.6billion rectangular white elephant project? How much have any of these sports contributed to those stadiums?

Correct, after you take into account a significant AFL contribution, it cost Government some $50 mill AND it accommodates the Royal Easter Show AND it accommodates a BBL team AND the Wanderers are using it for three years - all that for $50 mill.

In the meantime... $1.6 billion later....of which not one red cent is funded by any sport using the facilities....

Compare to what happens in Melbourne with the MCG and Etihad.

 

[The_Wookie]

Correct, after you take into account a significant AFL contribution, it cost Government some $50 mill AND it accommodates the Royal Easter Show AND it accommodates a BBL team AND the Wanderers are using it for three years - all that for $50 mill.

...and a commitment of decades to using the facility.

 

[bombersfan4000]

Is the $1.6 billion for Parra, ANZ, & SFS all tax-payer funds? (And who else is contributing?).
If so, how was it justified, with no evidence of insufficient capacity in Syd. (Perth & Adelaide new stadia justified, as both cities regularly had very large AF crowds, big memberships,often sell-outs; MCG & Docklands were almost 100% privately funded)?
NSW roads, hospitals, schools etc obviously don't require any further NSW govt. funding?

SS, IIRC, was built at a "modest" cost of c.$220 million -far less than &1.6 billion. It is also used by the important Easter Royal Show, & for the BBL.
Also, given the AFL's record of achieving the biggest sporting average crowd in Syd. with the Swans, its successful expansion teams elsewhere, it was able to mount a strong case that GWS also would eventually attract large (by Syd. standards) crowds, by 2032.

Syd. is a city of c.5,000,000 pop. There is also an incontrovertible argument it needs more than 1 large oval stadium, for both AF & cricket. Plus, obviously, oval stadia can accomodate easily RL, RU, & soccer matches -so oval stadia are a far better & more efficient use of scarce tax-payer funds.
The AFL would have highlighted this oval ground flexibility -& also that Syd. has c. 8 rectangular stadia.

the stadiums in SA & WA can easily be justified due to both cities having no other real stadium aside from the vastly outdated Football park & Subiaco, not a plethora of ghost stadiums that a used a few times a year & are never full

 

[bombersfan4000]

How could soccer (or RL or RU) control their own stadiums? Their crowds are so poor, they are in no financial position to control anything re stadia.

It also raises the issue, with such poor & declining RL & RU crowds, & stagnant A League, of how the NSW govt. can justify spending $1,600,000 on Parramatta -& refurbishment of ANZ & SFS?

Edit: $1.6 billion

if only the AFL or any other code had anywhere near the funding the NRL has had for stadiums

 

[bombersfan4000]

Every single NRL fan would rather their club win a premiership than their state win an origin series, as would every player. One is three games a year, the other is being the best of 16 clubs after an entire season. Origin is an event, it captures interest from those who don't necessarily follow the NRL week to week, not at the expense of those who do.

doesn't explain why the NRL crowds are next to crap, aside from the SOO that captures people wanting to watch one state play another state, then loose total interest in league