Play Nice Admin, Finance, Members, Ratings, Crowds, Policies - Please refer to each sports own boards

[BringBackTorps]

pretty interesting
The 95-page government report, detailing the activities of Queensland's nine big sporting stadiums for the 2009-10 financial year, showed:

* None of the Titans' home crowds announced at 14 games matched the attendances printed in the annual report.

* Thirteen of Gold Coast's 14 games featured inflated attendances.

* The greatest discrepancy was an extra 2209 fans for the Titans' home clash against Newcastle Knights last year.

* Brisbane Broncos' crowd figures at 11 games were identical to those in the annual report.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl...d/news-story/b568aa003ff6dfef75bfaefc7a21d571

ACT Sports Minister Andrew Barr claims crowd figures to Canberra's professional football codes have been inflated in previous years, leading to lower recorded numbers this year.
"I think they're actually more honest figures, I think the crowd figures have been inflated in previous years, often by 2000,'' Barr said.

"If you were to go back and look at what the actual numbers were before the inflation of numbers, it wouldn't reflect as much of a downward trend that people might think.
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/act-spo...nister-andrew-barr-claims-20140407-zqrsh.html


ive picked outs those two as the operator of the venues as it was the ACT sporting minister as well as Stadiums Qld that picked on the irregularity of the crowds recorded to the event day and to what has actually been noted in the annual reports

The NRL has also introduced uniform reporting measures to ensure all clubs count attendance figures the same way.

As recently as three years ago, the crowd figures at some grounds were considered little more than an educated guess, while some clubs included all tickets allocated - including members who didn't turn up - rather than number of fans who actually attended the match.

Former Melbourne Storm chief executive Ron Gauci told Fairfax Media in 2011 that the Storm's previous administration had inflated crowd figures and claimed it was a practice that commonly occurred at other clubs.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...nt-always-tell-the-truth-20150413-1mjuby.html


you wouldn't have any trust in the NRL clubs figures

I recall also over the years some NRL clubs publicly admitting crowd figures were inflated.

Fitzgerald Parramatta, Roosters, GC Titans, Storm were some I recall.
Also, did Dave Smith order all crowd figures be accurate when he took over? Can't be certain, but I recall it being discussed.

As noted by Muncher, having such a high no. of NRL matches just over 10,000 -but relatively so few just under 10,000- immediately raises the question of statistical anomalies; & fudging.

Anyone know if any RU or A League officials have publicly admitted to inflating crowd nos.?

 

[The_Wookie]

Its funny how some of the people questioning official NRL figures cant accept any issues with AFL official figures.

 

[bombersfan4000]

Its funny how some of the people questioning official NRL figures cant accept any issues with AFL official figures.

Has there been countless articles referring to the AFL inflating its crowd numbers?

 

[The_Wookie]

Has there been countless articles referring to the AFL inflating its crowd numbers?

4 or 5 isnt exactly countless. And while there hasnt been articles, theres been plenty of media skepticism over the reported size of some AFL crowds - from AFL journos at that.

 

[bombersfan4000]

4 or 5 isnt exactly countless. And while there hasnt been articles, theres been plenty of media skepticism over the reported size of some AFL crowds - from AFL journos at that.

there has been more than that, then add in the fact the ACT sporting minister's claims about professional sporting codes in Canberra, the Stadiums queensland report, Melbourne storms executive Ron Gauci mentioning about the previous administration had inflated crowds figures, then include the fact ex NRL CEO David Smith has pleaded with clubs to be honest about crowd figures, then to add in a few newspaper articles about the fudging of the crowd figures from the first two pages from a quick google search, is more than just a few articles from several different sources point out to inflating crowd numbers over a long period of time there is more than enough evidence


i don't claim that the AFL crowds are accurately counted but unless there are is sufficient evidence instead of just speculation from one of two journalists we can only go on what is recorded

 

[Garlic muncher]

4 or 5 isnt exactly countless. And while there hasnt been articles, theres been plenty of media skepticism over the reported size of some AFL crowds - from AFL journos at that.

It is one thing questioning figures and outright stating they are wrong, it is another pointing out what seems to be a statistical anomaly.

I reckon no crowd figure is perfect as there are so many things that can happen, people sneaking in via a plethora of means, machines not working, figures collated incorrectly from several gates etc etc.

I think for quite some time Sydney NRL clubs that played at suburban grounds used their own officials to count the crowds!!, maybe they still do.

 

[Garlic muncher]

there has been more than that, then add in the fact the ACT sporting minister's claims about professional sporting codes in Canberra, the Stadiums queensland report, Melbourne storms executive Ron Gauci mentioning about the previous administration had inflated crowds figures, then include the fact ex NRL CEO David Smith has pleaded with clubs to be honest about crowd figures, then to add in a few newspaper articles about the fudging of the crowd figures from the first two pages from a quick google search, is more than just a few articles from several different sources point out to inflating crowd numbers over a long period of time there is more than enough evidence


i don't claim that the AFL crowds are accurately counted but unless there are is sufficient evidence instead of just speculation from one of two journalists we can only go on what is recorded

At the end of the day inflating non Sydney NRL clubs crowds is not going to make a difference, there is no way the Storm, Titans or Raiders will be cut, it all seems a matter of optics.

Sydney NRL clubs however live on a much more perilous highwire, according to all these reports it seems to be bigger out of Sydney than in Sydney, that doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Our Game]

Most nrl grounds hold between 20-30k, theyre not quarter full

Im talking about the two big stadiums in Sydney not the smaller suburban ones.
Ok about half full its like watching the AFL 20 years ago when they also still played some games at the suburban ovals but I dont think any of the ex VFL grounds still had grassed mounds for spectators to stand on even then like some of the ones in Sydney do.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Im talking about the two big stadiums in Sydney not the smaller suburban ones.
Ok about half full its like watching the AFL 20 years ago when they also still played some games at the suburban ovals but I dont think any of the ex VFL grounds still had grassed mounds for spectators to stand on even then like some of the ones in Sydney do.

The thing with the smaller nrl grounds is they are stuck in a suburban timewarp, but for good reason - they are dirt cheap. The crowds havent mattered because it costs sfa to host.

The issue is as you just highlighted the bigger grounds. They need punters, but this means changing the expectations of supporters. You need to encourage them to be members, to rock up, and actually spend 1 hr+ travelling to your games.

This is a big culture change, and one that has only recently started. The nrl clubs havent helped the process by having a foot it both worlds for most clubs. Sooner they ditch the small grounds and commit to sfs/anz/parra the better

 

[Garlic muncher]

The thing with the smaller nrl grounds is they are stuck in a suburban timewarp, but for good reason - they are dirt cheap. The crowds havent mattered because it costs sfa to host.

The issue is as you just highlighted the bigger grounds. They need punters, but this means changing the expectations of supporters. You need to encourage them to be members, to rock up, and actually spend 1 hr+ travelling to your games.

This is a big culture change, and one that has only recently started. The nrl clubs havent helped the process by having a foot it both worlds for most clubs. Sooner they ditch the small grounds and commit to sfs/anz/parra the better

i dont have the exact time frame but NRL clubs have been playing at ANZ for a few years, likewise for substantially longer at the SFS.

It is not exactly new and not one that has just started.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

i dont have the exact time frame but NRL clubs have been playing at ANZ for a few years, likewise for substantially longer at the SFS.

It is not exactly new and not one that has just started.

Yes but they are still playing in their small main venue, as I said it creates a two worlds issue for most

 

[BringBackTorps]

Its funny how some of the people questioning official NRL figures cant accept any issues with AFL official figures.

Oakley, Jackson, Demetriou (& probably McLachlan, when he ceases to be CEO) all went on to be Directors of Companies,,post their AFL career. Directors have very strict, legally enforceable, obligations re continuous, full, & honest disclosure of important Company events. Fitzpatrick is also a Director of several companies, IIRC.

Whilst the AFL is a Not For profit org., what do you think would be the outcome/reputation/media clamour etc. if an ex-AFL CEO, who later became a Director, was revealed as previously deliberately lying to the public re AFL crowd figures?

 

[The_Wookie]

Oakley, Jackson, Demetriou (& probably McLachlan, when he ceases to be CEO) all went on to be Directors of Companies,,post their AFL career. Directors have very strict, legally enforceable, obligations re continuous, full, & honest disclosure of important Company events. Fitzpatrick is also a Director of several companies, IIRC.

And company directors have never been dishonest, no sir. Thats not an argument.

Whilst the AFL is a Not For profit org., what do you think would be the outcome/reputation/media clamour etc. if an ex-AFL CEO, who later became a Director, was revealed as previously deliberately lying to the public re AFL crowd figures?

Probably nothing, since nobody gives a crap about crowd numbers except the AFL. As long as the profits are up and the business side runs the way its meant to, AFL directors will continue to move into other areas regardless of the crowd figures.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Oakley, Jackson, Demetriou (& probably McLachlan, when he ceases to be CEO) all went on to be Directors of Companies,,post their AFL career. Directors have very strict, legally enforceable, obligations re continuous, full, & honest disclosure of important Company events. Fitzpatrick is also a Director of several companies, IIRC.

Whilst the AFL is a Not For profit org., what do you think would be the outcome/reputation/media clamour etc. if an ex-AFL CEO, who later became a Director, was revealed as previously deliberately lying to the public re AFL crowd figures?

Legally it would only be an issue if these numbers were tied to a commercial arrangement that saw the fake numbers give the league a financial benefit above what they deserved.

For instance toyota pay $xxxx more is attendances are higher than xxxxx, and the fake numbers allow this to happen

I doubt its happening though

 

[Gigantor]

Given the popularity of threads dedicated to sports attendances, both here and on other sites, I'm surprised to discover that no one cares about attendance figures and that higher attendances would not be viewed more favourably than lower attendances.

Perhaps Super Rugby has it right, they just refuse to report attendances, good, bad or indifferent (although you are more likely to see the better attendances reported than the poorer ones - I just can't imagine why that would be the case).

 

[kaypee]

Legally it would only be an issue if these numbers were tied to a commercial arrangement that saw the fake numbers give the league a financial benefit above what they deserved.

For instance toyota pay $xxxx more is attendances are higher than xxxxx, and the fake numbers allow this to happen

I doubt its happening though

Not quite, it's about trust Big corporations won't deal with shonky outfits because their shonkiness usually isn't confined to just one area

 

[The_Wookie]

Given the popularity of threads dedicated to sports attendances, both here and on other sites, I'm surprised to discover that no one cares about attendance figures and that higher attendances would not be viewed more favourably than lower attendances.

Perhaps Super Rugby has it right, they just refuse to report attendances, good, bad or indifferent (although you are more likely to see the better attendances reported than the poorer ones - I just can't imagine why that would be the case).

These threads arent as popular as you think, both here and on other sites, its usually the same 7 -10 folks week in, week out.

 

[The_Wookie]

AFL

• Key figures from Australia's eSports industry have welcomed the AFL's proposed move into the $1.2 billion competitive video gaming scene, while a leading gamer insists the pursuit is physically and mentally draining.
• PORT Adelaide president David Koch is convinced the Power will play an AFL game in China for at least the next five years. And he adds the Power — more so than the AFL — will decide next season’s opponent in Shanghai and what it wears.
  
• Port Adelaide’s brawl with Gold Coast on China AFL jumper is nothing compared with what is coming with Collingwood in 2020 at Ports 150th anniversary

A-league

• Melbourne Victory defender Jason Geria and former Socceroo Tony Vidmar have thrown their support behind Canberra's expansion bid.

NRL

• FORMER rugby league star and wealthy Sydney businessman Benny Elias has called on the NRL to consider buying the struggling Channel Ten for $100m. Elias told The Daily Telegraph that the NRL should have the necessary money for the sale and that matches would be shared between TEN and Fox Sports.

Rugby Union

• RUGBY Sevens is raising the stakes in women’s sport with the universities competition, that kicks off in August, given a directive to find the best talent it can from anywhere.

 

[Rob]

These threads arent as popular as you think, both here and on other sites, its usually the same 7 -10 folks week in, week out.

Pretty much. This board is a bit of an echo chamber so we tend to overestimate just how many people are interested in this shit.

As do people on most discussion boards TBH.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Pretty much. This board is a bit of an echo chamber so we tend to overestimate just how many people are interested in this shit.

As do people on most discussion boards TBH.

I think a lot of people are interested in crowd figures, they are posted at grounds, at Eagles games for example there is a running scoreboard as the game approaches detailing the numbers coming in, people have guessing comps around them, but i don't think it consumes them as much as quite a few people on here, commentators always mention them, people comment to each other at the grounds or when watching even on the tele.

I reckon a lot of posters have a look at Wookies graphs for example but don't comment.

It is what it is and there is actually not much you can say about them.

 

[bombersfan4000]

• FORMER rugby league star and wealthy Sydney businessman Benny Elias has called on the NRL to consider buying the struggling Channel Ten for $100m. Elias told The Daily Telegraph that the NRL should have the necessary money for the sale and that matches would be shared between TEN and Fox

Lol that must be a late April fools joke.

The NRL are to busy taking out advances from C9 & Fox to pay its bills for its normal operations, let alone to take out another loan to buy a debt ridden TV station loosing money

 

[ringleader]

Lol that must be a late April fools joke.

The NRL are to busy taking out advances from C9 & Fox to pay its bills for its normal operations, let alone to take out another loan to buy a debt ridden TV station loosing money

Like this? http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...on-to-buy-etihad-stadium-20170218-gufz8r.html

 

[BobbyMorri]

Oakley, Jackson, Demetriou (& probably McLachlan, when he ceases to be CEO) all went on to be Directors of Companies,,post their AFL career. Directors have very strict, legally enforceable, obligations re continuous, full, & honest disclosure of important Company events. Fitzpatrick is also a Director of several companies, IIRC.

Whilst the AFL is a Not For profit org., what do you think would be the outcome/reputation/media clamour etc. if an ex-AFL CEO, who later became a Director, was revealed as previously deliberately lying to the public re AFL crowd figures?

you clearly do not get how attendance figures are published. These guys would know as much as we unless they went digging for it.

The tickets to an AFL/NRL/FFA/S18 game are sold by Ticketek/Ticketmaster and all the information regarding the event come from these databases. but they are employed by the ground(or club) to do this service. so they send all this information to them. the ground is itself a client of the clubs(in some cases) So they then send this info that onto the club for final verification. but like i have said in the past, every stadium, club or database will do things differently. AAMI Park, for example, has 3 different clubs. the Rebels dont really release attendance figures while the other 2 do. but they would still know what that figure is. so would Melbourne Park, who would need this info for staffing levels.

i very much doubt there is any official NRL/FFA/AFL involvement at this level of governance.

 

[bombersfan4000]

Like this? http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...on-to-buy-etihad-stadium-20170218-gufz8r.html

big difference! one is a loan to pay for a stadium, something that is an asset that will make money & the land to it has an estimate of close to a billion dollars.
as to the NRL taking out advances from C9 & Fox to run its normal operations

do you understand the difference?

 

[NoobPie]

big difference! one is a loan to pay for a stadium, something that is an asset that will make money & the land to it has an estimate of close to a billion dollars.
as to the NRL taking out advances from C9 & Fox to run its normal operations

do you understand the difference?

From memory the AFL's upfront $30M contribution was essentially for the freehold title to be handed over in 2025 in the first instance. The $200 million was basically to bring the handover forward 8/9 years and so reflects the present value of the net revenue streams expected to flow from the stadium over that period

That said, you are right, the comparison is ludicrous.