Preview AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138, Teams post 236

[DTShowtime]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Fraser Brown, who I believe had retired by 2002, refused to speak to the AFL. The AFL threatend legal action but they really had no hold on him. He was at the centre of the salary cap cheating & played in the 1995 decider. Both Silvagni & Bradley admitted under the table payments throughout their career but they were both pardoned of it occuring in their last contract as they "voluntary" came forward (they only came forward b/c Carlton wouldn't pay them so in essence, 2 club icons ratted on their on club b/c they didn't come up with the coin).

If the AFL were serious like the NRL with the Storm & the Bulldogs (who were docked premiership points), Carlton in 95' & Essendon in 93' would have been striped off their flags. It speaks of the dishonesty of Carlton supporters that they believe it wasn't tainted with systematic cheating.

 

[Blue1980]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Please, we all know you cheated, Carlton just didn't have the integrity to put it's hand up like the other 10 or so clubs did at the time.

From the same wiki page;



All clubs were cheating during that period, in a number of different ways, to say you weren't cheating is incorrect, what you should have said is "we were never caught".

Having said that, at no point do I believe Carlton were cheating any more then several other clubs during that stage, and thus to me, the 95 flag is no less tainted then Brisbane's 3 in a row.

Carlton were "caught" once the AFL actually got serious about the salary cap, come around 2000 and onwards, before that the policing of the SC was a bit of a joke really, but the difference in 2000 and up to when Carlton were really stung is most clubs fell in line with the SC, while Carlton didn't until they were smashed in a big way.

We did cop a fine in 1994. Mind you if people think 1995 was tainted without any actual proof of us being over the cap, how about Essendon in 1993 who were proven to be over the cap?

Also true the policing of the cap was a joke until around the late 90s, Dermie has admitted Hawthorn certainly would of been over in the late 80s, and most likely most top sides were during the 90s.

Irrelevant now, we were run by a selfish man addicted to 1980s methods of doing things, too many people at the club let it happen and we paid a heavy price, both on and off the field.

 

[Blue1980]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Fraser Brown, who I believe had retired by 2002, refused to speak to the AFL. The AFL threatend legal action but they really had no hold on him. He was at the centre of the salary cap cheating & played in the 1995 decider. Both Silvagni & Bradley admitted under the table payments throughout their career but they were both pardoned of it occuring in their last contract as they "voluntary" came forward (they only came forward b/c Carlton wouldn't pay them so in essence, 2 club icons ratted on their on club b/c they didn't come up with the coin).

If the AFL were serious like the NRL with the Storm & the Bulldogs (who were docked premiership points), Carlton in 95' & Essendon in 93' would have been striped off their flags. It speaks of the dishonesty of Carlton supporters that they believe it wasn't tainted with systematic cheating.

There was heaps of stuff which went on during the 90s which was dodgy, we were punished from what happened from the period after the amnesty, which was around 1998 or so.

 

[DTShowtime]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

There was heaps of stuff which went on during the 90s which was dodgy, we were punished from what happened from the period after the amnesty, which was around 1998 or so.

The amnesty occured in 1993. The 15 clubs had a period to declare if they were over & only Fitzroy came forward of being over.

Greg Williams, Fraser Brown, Bradley & Silvagni have all admitted that post 1992, they received payments outside the salary cap in seperate contracts. The 1995 flag is as tainted as the Storms in 07 & 09.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Re: AFL Round 17 - Collingwood vs Carlton - Prematch & Selection Discussion

 

[Blue1980]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

The amnesty occured in 1993. The 15 clubs had a period to declare if they were over & only Fitzroy came forward of being over.

Greg Williams, Fraser Brown, Bradley & Silvagni have all admitted that post 1992, they received payments outside the salary cap in seperate contracts. The 1995 flag is as tainted as the Storms in 07 & 09.

Amazing Fitzroy were over.

Anywho, as you said if they took 95 off us they would of had to have taken 93 off Essendon first. I think there was an admission that policing of the cap wasn't great up to the end of the 90s, so I don't think our flag is tainted as its widely acknowledged it was a widespread problem with basically all clubs in the 90s.

Mind you it would be really interesting if it was found out if a NSW or QLD club was rorting the cap, and how the AFL would handle that. Much easier when its teams in the heartland of Melbourne.

 

[JollyBallsUp]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Amazing Fitzroy were over.

Mind you it would be really interesting if it was found out if a NSW or QLD club was rorting the cap, and how the AFL would handle that. Much easier when its teams in the heartland of Melbourne.

They would turn a blind eye to it as the AFL has a vested interest in the outcome. The best promotion that the AFL could give the northern neighbours is a premiership. Just look at Sydney and what happened with Barry Hall in the lead up to 2005 Grand Final.

 

[Big Kahuna Boot]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

..yes, blues players have admitted later that a few of them were getting extra through the 90's.. ..were they over in that particular 95 year?, that's never been either proven, or even later admitted.. ..just that there were breaches thru the 90's.. ..also, by the evidence and what we 'know' of the 90's, salary cap breaches were widespread and the idea of a flag being tainted can 'almost' apply to most flags up until recently.. ..there's every chance your 90' flag is tainted, the vast majority of clubs were regularly over the cap in those years..

..when you likewise factor in dubious tribunal results [e.g Hall 05], interstate/expansion team leg-ups, the draw, etc etc etc.. ..the AFL is a horribly compromised competition.. ..does it suck that the Blues were one of the more dodgy clubs in this regard?, yes.. ..likewise though, we're also one of the most heavily punished as well.. ..so, we've at least paid the biggest punishment, where'as many other clubs 'got away' with more when looking at dubious punishments in regards to 'crimes' committed..

..ultimately, the club's cleaned up it's act and has 'paid it's dues'.. ..regrettable yes, but as i said before every club has done dodgey shite that has shamed it's supporters.. ..for instance, your ex president [what is with presidents from those times??!!] Colin Allan McAlister didn't endear himself to the aboriginal community, neither did many of your club supporters not long after the Pres' [ex] comments got the backlash from the aboriginal community and had 'the Bone' pointed at your club..

..the difference in the way the afl and especially the clubs are run is a world away from the shambles of the previous decade [90's].. ..blues fans aren't proud of crap the club has done, but we're certainly not alone and i don't think there's a single club that can honestly climb aboard that high horse..

 

[Big Kahuna Boot]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

They would turn a blind eye to it as the AFL has a vested interest in the outcome. The best promotion that the AFL could give the northern neighbours is a premiership. Just look at Sydney and what happened with Barry Hall in the lead up to 2005 Grand Final.

..guilty here of 'potentially' hijacking this thread and i don't wanna, but some things are too juicy to pass up.. ..there's no way that Hall punch would have been 'approved' if it wasn't leading up to the granny.. ..i mean there's dubious judgements all season long, every season.. ..recently there's Judd's elbow to Pav that was deemed 'insufficient force'.. ..Kennedy breaking Sylvia's jaw is another from recent memory.. ..possibly even Maxwell, but you guys challenged that successfully, just cant remember if the damage was done from the actual bump or when that player hit the ground.. ..either way now even 'legal' hits can land you in hot water if the head is injured.. ..in this season alone, look at the sling tackles as one issue where there's complete inconsistency..

..i've said elsewhere, love footy but the AFL as a competition has bugger all integrity in regards to it's own sport [has other things it does very well]..

..but anyway, back on topic.. ..Blair's back in for you guys..?.. ....don't you wanna send him away somewhere for a short holiday..?.. ..i think the only chance we have of getting on top of you guys is to play frenetic, kamikaze style footy for the entire length of the match.. ..which i'm not sure we can to be honest.. ..blues depth is average, not shite but not leading either.. ..earlier on in the season it wasn't tested much cos the main guys were fit, but our back-up players have been underdone, too young still to make an impact etc etc.. ..it wasn't realised cos they weren't needed but now as we need them, there's not much to choose from..

..in contrast, you picked up Tarrant in the off-season, so losing Brown hasn't been detrimental this season [shouldn't be too much next season either].. ..Dawes being out isn't exposed as much this season with the slight tweaking of gameday tactics with the reduced bench and 'resting ruck' often playing at FF.. ..kpp's are by far harder to replace, and i reckon this is what's going to carry you guys thru to the granny.. ..your kpps are fit, settled and in form, and Dawes will come back a bit before finals to get back into form as well.. ..your settled spine really gives your tactics and structures the consistency required to perform well week in, week out.. ..it's the reliability that's important..

 

[HARKER]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

All clubs were cheating during that period, in a number of different ways, to say you weren't cheating is incorrect, what you should have said is "we were never caught".

Carlton were "caught" once the AFL actually got serious about the salary cap, come around 2000 and onwards, before that the policing of the SC was a bit of a joke really, but the difference in 2000 and up to when Carlton were really stung is most clubs fell in line with the SC, while Carlton didn't until they were smashed in a big way.

Nice to have some honesty and logic thrown into this well worn argument.

Carlton cheated and were silly enough to get caught where others may not have.
Doesn't make our indiscretions any betten nor worse for doing so.

Seems to be something similar happened with the NRL in recent times and I didn't see the Storm pointing fingers at others.
Take your cop, learn from the event and move on.

 

[Big Kahuna Boot]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Nah, they're welcome as long as they aren't offensive towards any of our posters, just like any given match.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Carlton as much an anyone, but it doesn't mean we can't have some actual discussion with their fans.

Plus, we are lulling them into a false sense of security, thinking they are actually a chance against us this week, only to come out feeling like North Melbourne and Hawthorn who post game were heard mumbling "what the **** was that?" after being thumped.

..likewise can't stand your steeenky club.. ..but always try to give credit where credit's due and your team's playing outstanding football [unfortunately].. ..your only bonafide contender would be a case of the measels come sept..

..i don't think we'd get thumped [though if it were to happen it could only be you bums doing it].. ..i do think that snaring Brown from your coaching dept. has given us a little edge compared to other teams when playing you..

 

[Swooop]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Dear all,

Have really enjoyed the great majority of discussion on this thread, and as we all know on our board we have standards, that do not include gratuitous personal abuse.

Thanks, as you were..

 

[Nicco_jj]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Any chance we could all stop bagging each other and just discuss this weeks game? Maybe start another thread called "we're bagging Carlton" so that this thread can just be match discussion - not who cheated 15 years ago and what they deserve.

I hope we trounce Carlton this week. But everyone deserves some respect here.

 

[jonesy86]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

HS saying Watson could be the sacraficial lamb to be slaughtered by Cloke.

It would be pretty rough on the kid IMO.

The last game he played was round 3 against us and we just played through his man, at first it was Dawes then he got moved on to Cloke and then we went through Cloke. The kid has potential but it would be a slaughter. If they were going to bring him in, play him on Keeffe or L.Brown and keep him well away from Cloke.

 

[Richie_P]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

HS saying Watson could be the sacraficial lamb to be slaughtered by Cloke.

It would be pretty rough on the kid IMO.

The last game he played was round 3 against us and we just played through his man, at first it was Dawes then he got moved on to Cloke and then we went through Cloke. The kid has potential but it would be a slaughter. If they were going to bring him in, play him on Keeffe or L.Brown and keep him well away from Cloke.

Who do you suggest we play on Cloke?

Watson is probably the only player who can maybe match him for size.

Yeah Cloke will kick a bag on him, but he needs to play in these big games.

 

[smiddaz123]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

HS saying Watson could be the sacraficial lamb to be slaughtered by Cloke.

It would be pretty rough on the kid IMO.

The last game he played was round 3 against us and we just played through his man, at first it was Dawes then he got moved on to Cloke and then we went through Cloke. The kid has potential but it would be a slaughter. If they were going to bring him in, play him on Keeffe or L.Brown and keep him well away from Cloke.

Surely they wouldn't do that to the poor kid?

 

[The Toad]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Our lack of a KPD is the one thing that is really worrying me. Our Fwds can get the job done, our mids are the best in comp, but our backline sucks arse at the moment.
Need to bring in someone who can do the job on Cloke, who that is, is anyones guess.

 

[Optimax]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Your mids are the best in the comp, come again?

Who the **** are you kidding?

 

[The Toad]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Your mids are the best in the comp, come again?

Who the **** are you kidding?

I'm not kidding anyone.

 

[mdc]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Best in the comp at polling undeserved Brownlow votes, definitely.

 

[DTShowtime]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

I'm not kidding anyone.

If not, book yourself into Kew Cottages quick smart.

 

[Big Kahuna Boot]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

You forget we have lappin.

..fair point, but personally i'd rate the I.P Brown brought over here with him, versus the I.P Lappin took from us to you guys.. ..no slight on Lappin himself, more just i think our coaching dept. improved with our off-field acquisitions, you guys were already very good in this regard..

 

[The Toad]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

Best in the comp at polling undeserved Brownlow votes, definitely.

Be that as it may, their still the best.

If not, book yourself into Kew Cottages quick smart.

Come on champ, it's been closed for years.

 

[Big Kahuna Boot]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

..the whole 'best mids in the business' tag can argueably be said for half a dozen teams.. ..especially when mids and rucks get a good feeling for eachother and all are in red hot form.. ..plenty of top notch mids in the game, enough that most teams have a couple to start with.. ..a big fat circular arguement..

..obviously it's the KPPs that are the big dividing factor in this game.. ..regarding Watson, don't think he'll come in [unless we're That desperate].. ..still developing in many ways.. ..he could however stop all incoming F50 entries by playing in front and just getting that big cranium of his in the way.. ..kid has a serious skull..

 

[Optimax]

Re: AFL Rd 17 - Coll vs Carlton - Prematch Discussion, DaVe86's Preview post 138

I'm not kidding anyone.

What is this?

I don't even?

You just can't actually be being serious