Anthony Albanese - How long? -2-

[SaintsSeptember]

Yeah, I can see why the members have stuck with the leaders. Absolutely no excuse for the criminality aspect.

But the CFMEU has done more for their workers than the ALP has, by streets.

Just look at the Shoppies (SDA) Union for comparison. Consistently get unders on EBAs, use their position for personal gain repeatedly and don't really care because they have a largely short-term membership and have got away with it for decades.

Nobody ever accused supermarket workers of being overpaid and they're replacing them with robots and nobody seems to care, least of all the Shoppies.

Its ridiculous that we should determine pay scales based on which workers are most able to blackmail or threaten their employers.

 

[Kram]

Broadly I'm not against unions at all, they 100% need a presence but the CFMEU are a scummy organisation that needs to be flushed.

I can't believe anyone not a member would defend them.

 

[Golden_6]

Broadly I'm not against unions at all, they 100% need a presence but the CFMEU are a scummy organisation that needs to be flushed.

I can't believe anyone not a member would defend them.

I can't people believe banging on about people not getting annual leave and a weekend if it wasn't for the CFMEU like that somehow absolves them of criminal behaviour.

 

[Gralin]

I can't people believe banging on about people not getting annual leave and a weekend if it wasn't for the CFMEU like that somehow absolves them of criminal behaviour.

there have been allegations made by the media of criminal behavior

corruption will exist anywhere there is power

CFMEU doing things like threatening to strike if duck season in vic is cancelled was pretty ****ing stupid

but don't for a second think this is purely about some bikies at the CFMEU, its an attack on a successful and powerful union because the corporates and politicians are anti worker and they don't like not being in full control

they aren't trying to clean up corruption they're trying to make sure they have a monopoly on it

they also dont like their profits being impacted by little things like workers rights, safety or fair wages

 

[Golden_6]

there have been allegations made by the media of criminal behavior

corruption will exist anywhere there is power

CFMEU doing things like threatening to strike if duck season in vic is cancelled was pretty ****ing stupid

but don't for a second think this is purely about some bikies at the CFMEU, its an attack on a successful and powerful union because the corporates and politicians are anti worker and they don't like not being in full control

they aren't trying to clean up corruption they're trying to make sure they have a monopoly on it

they also dont like their profits being impacted by little things like workers rights, safety or fair wages

The issue is that it's now impacting the general public and a lot of sick of it.

I have union mates and I'm sick to death of the constant parroting about how much they make. The average plumber will be on $64 an hour in 4 years BEFORE allowances which I was very kindly let known can be up to $30k a year.

When the state is swimming in debt and we have these constant massive overruns in job times & costs because of these sorts of unions, they deserve everything they get. This is now impacting everyday people who don't get the benefit of these simply because of an industry these chose when they were 18.

 

[Gralin]

The issue is that it's now impacting the general public and a lot of sick of it.

I have union mates and I'm sick to death of the constant parroting about how much they make. The average plumber will be on $64 an hour in 4 years BEFORE allowances which I was very kindly let known can be up to $30k a year.

When the state is swimming in debt and we have these constant massive overruns in job times & costs because of these sorts of unions, they deserve everything they get. This is now impacting everyday people who don't get the benefit of these simply because of an industry these chose when they were 18.

the problem isn't them getting paid well

its everyone else not getting paid well

 

[Saint]

Its ridiculous that we should determine pay scales based on which workers are most able to blackmail or threaten their employers.

What tactics do you think employers determine their pay scales?

 

[Sttew]

What tactics do you think employers determine their pay scales?

Not blackmail.

 

[nut]

Its ridiculous that we should determine pay scales based on which workers are most able to blackmail or threaten their employers.

Is this Just because the Unions are doing better trying to keep up with inflation than non union?

Every economic indicator is showing corporate profits are driving inflation….

Oh and

The average pay of CEOs grew by 14 per cent, while for managing directors it was 11 per cent. Nearly half of those surveyed also received bonuses.

 

[Saint]

Not blackmail.

Of course they use blackmail and threats.

They threaten to sack Union leaders. They sack people who try to create unions in non-union worksites. They threaten to move the factory overseas etc. etc.

It's just that threats of sacking people seem to be fine, but threats of strikes are not, for some reason......

 

[Carn The Berries]

Not exactly on topic for this thread, but didn't want to start a separate one...

Workers’ rights law firm admits to underpaying staff $300,000

Prominent class action firm Slater & Gordon says there are “no excuses” for the underpayment which was due to a decade-long miscalculation of leave entitlements.

www.afr.com

Did have a chuckle when I heard this on the news this morning. Also noticed that despite referring to this practice multiple times on their own website as "wage theft" that phrase is noticeably absent from their public comments regarding this particular situation.

Will it lead to a softening of the rhetoric about these cases, which are mostly genuine mistakes rather than deliberate deception? I suspect not.

 

[Saint]

Not exactly on topic for this thread, but didn't want to start a separate one...

Workers’ rights law firm admits to underpaying staff $300,000

Prominent class action firm Slater & Gordon says there are “no excuses” for the underpayment which was due to a decade-long miscalculation of leave entitlements.

www.afr.com

Did have a chuckle when I heard this on the news this morning. Also noticed that despite referring to this practice multiple times on their own website as "wage theft" that phrase is noticeably absent from their public comments regarding this particular situation.

Will it lead to a softening of the rhetoric about these cases, which are mostly genuine mistakes rather than deliberate deception? I suspect not.

Are they really genuine mistakes, though? There are compliance people and auditors and a whole finance team. Most companies have a payroll team with one job. Making people are paid the right amount on time.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Are they really genuine mistakes, though? There are compliance people and auditors and a whole finance team. Most companies have a payroll team with one job. Making people are paid the right amount on time.

Given that this has now happened at a company who literally pride themselves on defending worker's rights, doesn't that suggest that maybe they are accidents?

Have you actually read through an enterprise agreement and then tried to adjust payroll processes in accordance with their complexity?

Have you ever come across someone who works in payroll who feels good about making a mistake that impacts people's pay?

And before the whataboutism starts, yes, there are instances where unscrupulous companies have sought to deliberately underpay their staff, it does happen. But lumping everything in as "wage theft" is misleading at best.

 

[Sphynx]

Dutton has been stomping on Albanese this week.

He has a point below and Shorten's comments are illogical.

If we breakup the large corrupt organisation, we face the risk of splinter corrupt organisations?

Then ****ing legislate it and don't enable it.

“If you deregister the CFMEU, you stamp it out. That’s exactly what Bob Hawke did because he had the guts and the backbone to stand up against a militant, corrupt union in the BLF,” Mr Dutton told the Today show.

“Anthony Albanese isn’t a patch on Bob Hawke, and he’s just demonstrated again how weak and pathetic he is as a prime minister.”

Mr Dutton attacked Mr Albaneses decision to appoint an administrator, saying it is the “weakest possible path” he could have taken.

“The conduct of this union has tarnished the reputation of other unions … They should be stamped out and the Prime Minister should show some backbone,” he said.

But NDIS Minister Bill Shorten hit back at Mr Dutton’s comments, suggesting deregistration would only land the union in the same position in the future.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Is this Just because the Unions are doing better trying to keep up with inflation than non union?

Every economic indicator is showing corporate profits are driving inflation….

Oh and

The average pay of CEOs grew by 14 per cent, while for managing directors it was 11 per cent. Nearly half of those surveyed also received bonuses.

Unions create an imbalance where less skilled people get paid more than skilled people.
They aren't "better".
They aren't "more productive"

Can anyone justify why a crane driver on the docks should get paid more than another crane driver?
( Australia's ports are some of the least efficient in the world ).
Its simply their ability to disrupt the flow of goods through the docks.

 

[Sphynx]

Unions create an imbalance where less skilled people get paid more than skilled people.
They aren't "better".
They aren't "more productive"

Can anyone justify why a crane driver on the docks should get paid more than another crane driver?
( Australia's ports are some of the least efficient in the world ).
Its simply their ability to disrupt the flow of goods through the docks.

They don't really.

If you are referring to a crane operator, operating a frammer on a Metricon site in Pakenham, Im sorry that is not comparable to a Crane operator in a port or on a major commercial tower.

It's like comparing a pilot who operates skydivers out of a Cesna vs a Boeing 747 Pilot.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Given that this has now happened at a company who literally pride themselves on defending worker's rights, doesn't that suggest that maybe they are accidents?

Have you actually read through an enterprise agreement and then tried to adjust payroll processes in accordance with their complexity?

Have you ever come across someone who works in payroll who feels good about making a mistake that impacts people's pay?

And before the whataboutism starts, yes, there are instances where unscrupulous companies have sought to deliberately underpay their staff, it does happen. But lumping everything in as "wage theft" is misleading at best.

I've heard of it happening a few times , and most times it is the company at fault who have discovered the mistake.
They then pay back the money, ( which can be hard for them, because if its happened over several years it can be a big hit all at once ).
So if you find out you didn't pay someone enough ,and then fix it, how can anyone consider that wage theft?

 

[Saint]

Unions create an imbalance where less skilled people get paid more than skilled people.
They aren't "better".
They aren't "more productive"

Can anyone justify why a crane driver on the docks should get paid more than another crane driver?
( Australia's ports are some of the least efficient in the world ).
Its simply their ability to disrupt the flow of goods through the docks.

Why should one CEO get paid more than another CEO? They negotiated better terms with a company who could afford it.

Without Unions, there would not be equity in pay in most places. It would be a rush to the bottom and safety would be the first casualty.

Australia's port efficiency is more about how small they are and that the international stevedores who run them don't care about them or invest in them as much as other places which are bigger and more competitive.

I will never understand bashing Unions for the concept of it. Collective bargaining is one of the greatest advances of human rights post-industrial revolution. Without it, Capitalism would have collapsed by now.

 

[Saint]

I've heard of it happening a few times , and most times it is the company at fault who have discovered the mistake.
They then pay back the money, ( which can be hard for them, because if its happened over several years it can be a big hit all at once ).
So if you find out you didn't pay someone enough ,and then fix it, how can anyone consider that wage theft?

This is true of corporations.

But most wage theft happens in Small Businesses who, it needs to be repeatedly pointed out, are breaking the law if they do so.

 

[Gralin]

This is true of corporations.

But most wage theft happens in Small Businesses who, it needs to be repeatedly pointed out, are breaking the law if they do so.

The big ones happen at places like Coles though

 

[Carn The Berries]

This is true of corporations.

But most wage theft happens in Small Businesses who, it needs to be repeatedly pointed out, are breaking the law if they do so.

Nobody is arguing that if it is being done deliberately and actively ignored, then those at fault should be prosecuted.

What is being pointed out is that this isn't always the case. Most of the cases that make it into the media are they type that @SaintSeptember mentioned, yet mobs like Slater and Gordon are more than happy to shout "wage theft" from the rooftops.

The bloke from Masterchef was nearly run out of the industry, despite self reporting and seeking to rectify the underpayments.

Where's that language now that they've suffered the same fate?

It's much easier to do than you think. I've been the person responsible for wages and found historical underpayment issues. It's a bad enough feeling knowing you've short paid people without being accused of being a thief on top of it.

 

[The Punter]

EBAs and awards could be simpler.

 

[Carn The Berries]

EBAs and awards could be simpler.

100%

 

[Saint]

EBAs and awards could be simpler.

Which side, out of the corporations and their lawyers, or the Unions and their lawyers are the ones who you think are making it more complicated? (both sets of lawyers). But I doubt it's the Unions' fault that the EBA's and awards are complicated.

 

[The Punter]

Which side, out of the corporations and their lawyers, or the Unions and their lawyers are the ones who you think are making it more complicated? (both sets of lawyers). But I doubt it's the Unions' fault that the EBA's and awards are complicated.

If you include more things, entitlements, allowances and such, then both EBAs and awards get more complicated.

If you remove those things, you need to compensate in the base rate of pay.