Are Victorians holding football back?

[feenix67]

wonae - If they re-did the whole comp, picking only the strongest state teams, Fitzroy wouldn't have made it in anyway.

Port had everything in 2004 - seems like (to me) they basically ran themselves into the ground.
There has to be some element of sink-or-swim at some stage. Clubs have to know what is within their financial limits and spend accordingly. Running a nationally marketed club with $7M on player wages is probably not going to work with 15000 crowds.

Exactly how has the fabric of the game been ripped?

If your view is that Port "had everything" in 2004 then you need to go do some more research. And your sink or swim, "know your financial limits" diatribe is offensive.

The only reason there is an AFL in its current form is because 2/3 of the VFL had sunk, not knowing their financial limits. This is a mess that your club, along with the other 11 VFL clubs, created during the mid 80's.

Learn to see the bigger picture.

 

[invinciBlues]

Well my point was that we would have much rather ended up in the VFL, and had the ability to chase promotion back to the AFL

When was the last time a club got promoted from the VFA/VFL to the VFL/AFL? 84 years?

If Fitzroy had've been kicked to VFA, they would've stayed there permanently. No amount of anything would have got you back.

But, you would've retained you history and spiritual base.

Of the scenarios, what would you pick?

VFL and be able to hold your chin up
or
AFL and have what you've got now

I know which I'd prefer if it were Carlton, and I suspect I know your answer too.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

See the problem with all this is that the original reason for the expansion of the VFL was not about any grand plans to nationalise the comp - it was about "how can we (Victorians) save our comp". Expanding the comp was a way to generate immediate income so that Victorian clubs who were on the brink of financial collapse would be sustained.

The thing is, having done so, the question became "ok so what now?". The result has been a half assed attempt to transform an expanded state league into a national league, all the while trying to hang on to the traditions of the past (in Victoria) and maintain that "tribal feel" (in Victoria) while sipping chardys from the corporate boxes.

Its utter fabricated crap.

We had 3 state leagues that were thriving with rabid supporters and fierce intra and interstate rivalries. 4 if you include Tassie. 5 if you include the untapped wonderland of the NT. We had the passion, all that needed to happen was for the three leagues to get together on equal footing and work out a new business model to take the game into the 21st century financially. Instead, we got a bunch of narcissistic Victorian Football Board members wrecking the fabric of the game for the benefit of their own club's balance sheet.

Look at Port Adelaide as a study in everything that has been stuffed up in the game. PAFC (I hate them) are the most successful sporting club in Australia. They had a rabid supporter base, struck fear into the hearts of their rivals and had been around as long as any other footy club on the planet. For the Victorian readers, think Collingwood except with success. In the space of 12 years in the manufactured world of the AFL, where they have had to compromise their traditions and culture for the sake of "opening up the club to new markets", and they are a shadow of their former selves, broke and losing supporters. As much as I hate them with a passion, I find their circumstances extremely sad, because I know it illustrates perfectly the bigger picture of today's game of Aussie Rules.

Sadly, I cant see anything changing any time soon - there are now just too many pigs with their noses in the troughs. But I sure wish we could start from scratch and build a true national comp underpinned by thriving state leagues made up of the traditional clubs.

One of the better posts I have read. Summed it up very nicely.

 

[laminex]

Does the fact that the AFL is dominated by Victorian teams and comprise of most of footballers followers mean that they are holding the game back?

Ive heard some Victorians state that they wish that the AFL would revert back into the VFL!

I believe that the continual whinging from some Victorian Football fans has resulted in the game only expanding to Sydney on a national level in the 80's, and is currently holding the game back internationally.

Demitriou and his team are great in the fact he is trying to grow football outside of traditional areas, and are beginning to realise the benefits of growing football outside of Australian shores.
People on Bigfooty sometimes refer to non-Victorian clubs as interstate clubs.

Growing the game outside of traditional areas will only increase its appeal!!

The VFL should not have turned into the AFL, the AFL should have been a new super leauge with only 5 vic teams making the jump. The problem is we are useing a 1900's code in the natinal compation. All teams could be stroger with less teams more money and a more streamlined leauge. Fact is we need the game to be Au wide for it to be as strong as it could be but we went the wrong way from the start. If Jack Elliot has his way and he did have the numbers, we would have a far stroger comp if Jack had been booted out as soon as it started and he went crazy .

 

[The Fireman]

One of the better posts I have read. Summed it up very nicely.

I can't get my head around the jargon concerning the VFL going under if it had not expanded? The VFL would still exist even if it was in a lesser form monetarily
The clubs that folded were under pressure to do so for the sake of an expanded comp, the Swans and Roys would still exist in Vic with the help of it's supporters base even if it was relegated to rise again at a later date.
The National comp is better for the game but there is no doubt in my mind that we could still be watching the best in the country playing in one town.

 

[Slattery_20]

If your view is that Port "had everything" in 2004 then you need to go do some more research. And your sink or swim, "know your financial limits" diatribe is offensive.

The only reason there is an AFL in its current form is because 2/3 of the VFL had sunk, not knowing their financial limits. This is a mess that your club, along with the other 11 VFL clubs, created during the mid 80's.

Learn to see the bigger picture.

Port had the flag, a good list, decent youngsters & crowds were rocking up. Since then, the Hawks have pilfered 3/4 of the coaches, half the list, the team loses in front of half-empty stadiums. TBH I don't really GAF enough to look up anything more than that!

I still don't see how creating a completely new competition from scratch would be any better. Yeah there'd still be Fitzroy/South Melb etc - but not many VFL clubs turn profits.

 

[TooFar]

Victoria, is, was , will always be the home of football.
Just the way it is.

Amazing, not long after one of the best posts in the thread, we are followed by this idiotic rubbish. But it does prove the point of the OP. Narrow minded, self centered, narcissistic Victorians are doing there best to destroy what was once a great game and a great part of our culture.

.

 

[Papa G]

Ideal League

Adelaide
Brisbane
Carlton
Collingwood
Essendon
Fremantle
Geelong
Gold Coast
Greater Western Sydney
Hawthorn
Port Adelaide
Richmond
St Kilda
Sydney
West Coast
Western Kangaroos

AFL Headquarters based in Alice Springs.

Rolling Draw.

 

[ozpie]

narcissistic Victorians are doing there best to destroy what was once a great game and a great part of our culture

lets not get carried away

 

[TimmehJC"]

If your view is that Port "had everything" in 2004 then you need to go do some more research. And your sink or swim, "know your financial limits" diatribe is offensive.

The only reason there is an AFL in its current form is because 2/3 of the VFL had sunk, not knowing their financial limits. This is a mess that your club, along with the other 11 VFL clubs, created during the mid 80's.

Learn to see the bigger picture.

Yeah, they were the reasons behind the national league, but no other state league had made any real attempt to open up a national comp. The VFL's expansion worked and they are now the strongest code of footy in the country. Yes, the expansion did prop up VFL clubs for a while, yet most have now grown to stand on their own feet. The expansion also threatened to end many clubs, such as Hawthorn, Melbourne, Bulldogs, North Melbourne, St.Kilda.

The Western Australian clubs have thrived off-field, even Freo with its lack of success, terrible jumper and strange identity has built a strong loyal fan base. Sydney and Brisbane are still struggling hard in NRL heart land, but when successful can make a dent. The second clubs for both states will hopefully introduce some intra-state rivalry and strengthen the game. Adelaide has been a successful venture, with an strong fan base.

As for Port, could the problem be that these rabid supporters just don't like losing. They come from a winning culture, and they're not used to not winning premierships every year. They are the only let down so far of the expansion outside of Victoria. Who do we blame? Honestly, I think it stems from SA's hate of everything Victorian, and if they can't beat us they just won't watch.

With Vic Clubs, well Essendon and Collingwood are the strongest in most regards. Carlton, Richmond, Hawthorn and Geelong have all gone through bad times, but are now fairly stable. North, St.Kilda, Melbourne and the Dogs are all still struggling a little, but seemed headed in the right direction. The idea that its all been about keeping the Vic clubs going is wrong. The AFL have done nothing but try and wipe out Vic clubs, it has been the support that has kept them going.

I have no problem with the AFL helping out Port, but its a sad state of affairs when a supposedly football made state can't keep 2 teams going. We're managing to keep 10 teams going.

 

[tribey]

No to sure about dyertribe either. Notice how he disappeared when I met his challenge yesterday...

Your 'challenge' was a pathetic whinge based on your bigoted and misguided views of the events of 1990, Port Adelaide and the AFL in general.

I pointed out exactly where you were wrong.

You retorted with nothing but a glib one-liner.

I decided to let you have the last word and disengage because I figured you were either out of your depth or just not very bright.

Not having a go, just saying.

 

[TimmehJC"]

Ideal League

Adelaide
Brisbane
Carlton
Collingwood
Essendon
Fremantle
Geelong
Gold Coast
Greater Western Sydney
Hawthorn
Port Adelaide
Richmond
St Kilda
Sydney
West Coast
Western Kangaroos

AFL Headquarters based in Alice Springs.

Rolling Draw.

Just deleted Melbourne, the oldest club? Don't even offer them a merger?
No Tassie still?

For me - 20 team league
3 WA
2 SA (until they can support those 2)
2 NSW
2 QLD
1 Tassie
10 Vic

19 round fixture, play everybody once, at home one year, away the next.
(10 home games 1 year, 9 the next)
Final 8 System as is.

Should a Vic team ever merge/fold/relocate new teams to be located in
3rd SA should Port become profitable.
NT
Northern QLD

 

[Papa G]

Just deleted Melbourne, the oldest club? Don't even offer them a merger?

Yep - Easily the most pathetic club in the league and needs to be the first one out. "But we're the oldest....but we're called Melbourne.... but we invented the game blah blah blah" Yes with all these advantages plus being a dominant club up until Menzies gave it away, you should be a powerhouse, but no your just a whinging useless club with no supporters, no premierships since grandpa was a boy, no heart and no future. Atleast North, without any of the historical advantages that Melbourne has had, have heart, passion and determination. What happens when the old boys network which is getting smaller and smaller doesn't bail you out next time? Melbourne should be the team in the gun, way in front of North or the Bulldogs.

 

[tribey]

Look at Port Adelaide as a study in everything that has been stuffed up in the game. PAFC (I hate them) are the most successful sporting club in Australia. They had a rabid supporter base, struck fear into the hearts of their rivals and had been around as long as any other footy club on the planet. For the Victorian readers, think Collingwood except with success. In the space of 12 years in the manufactured world of the AFL, where they have had to compromise their traditions and culture for the sake of "opening up the club to new markets", and they are a shadow of their former selves, broke and losing supporters. As much as I hate them with a passion, I find their circumstances extremely sad, because I know it illustrates perfectly the bigger picture of today's game of Aussie Rules.

The biggest problem is the furphy that the club needs to expand its appeal and find new supporters by executing marketing ploys that only serve to alienate and disenfranchise existing Port Adelaide supporters and members.

There are more than enough football fans in the state of SA who consider themselves "Port Adelaide supporters" to fill AAMI Stadium and then some on a given weekend.

The problem is the ingrained mentality from the SANFL days where finals, if not flags, were par for the course. The minimum expectation.

Quite quickly a culture sprang up whereby September/October was solely where it was at.

Sure there was a cadre of Port fans who went to minor round clashes more often than not, but the bulk of the Alberton faithful became conditioned to treating the SANFL minor round as if it was the NAB Cup - just a mickey mouse precursor to the business end of finals where they all came out in droves.

This attitude has transferred into the AFL.

After the novelty of the inaugural season where crowds were substantial and impressive, the old attitude of minor round malaise has kicked in in earnest, even when Port was striding the national stage like the old local colossus, with 2 preseason flags, 3 minor premierships and the inaugural AFL flag between 2001-2004.

The anomaly is Port's recent crowds in cutthroat Round 22 battles for September position (even non-Showdown) and of course the better frequented home finals themselves:

• 2002 (avg home attendance, 30414) - Round 22 vs Brisbane @ AAMI Stadium for Minor Premiership: 46,439 [+16,025]
• 2005 (avg home attendance, 32911) - Round 22 vs Freo @ AAMI Stadium for 8th Position: 41,518 [+8,607]
• 2007 (avg home attendance, 27870) - Round 22 vs Freo @ AAMI Stadium for 2nd Position: 39,270 [+11,400]

This is the basis of reaffirming the identity of 1870, Live the Creed and the establishment of an iconic 'Portish' new traditional guernsey image in lieu of the wharf pylon/prison bar number. Reconnecting with the base, who are there in numbers.

The trick will be to reengineer the base's thinking on minor round attendance, a task made immeasurably more difficult in this era of cheap plasma screens, live against the gate and the difference in matchday experience between AAMI Stadium and the Dome/MCG.

 

[Slattery_20]

I just don't know if clubs can survive & thrive with 20 or 25k attendances. Here or elsewhere. I think that's what it can come down to... there's only so many people you can bring through the gates in smaller cities. somewhere like Tassie or Darwin, there's just no feasible option to have a bigger marquee stadium (like Sydney have) to play against the big clubs (eg Collingwood) or derby rivals. I'm sure this adds a few $$$ to the Swans' bottom line.

In Melbourne at least there's a few thousand AFL members who will go along to games they don't have any direct interest in.
I'm pretty sure Adelaide fans won't go to watch Port play.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I just don't know if clubs can survive & thrive with 20 or 25k attendances. Here or elsewhere. I think that's what it can come down to... there's only so many people you can bring through the gates in smaller cities. somewhere like Tassie or Darwin, there's just no feasible option to have a bigger marquee stadium (like Sydney have) to play against the big clubs (eg Collingwood) or derby rivals. I'm sure this adds a few $$$ to the Swans' bottom line.

In Melbourne at least there's a few thousand AFL members who will go along to games they don't have any direct interest in.
I'm pretty sure Adelaide fans won't go to watch Port play.

but that is exactly the point of many in this thread, whether it be Port Adelaide, North melbourne, Melbourne or whoever the crowds are not relevant and Port should expect the exact same handout that any Victorian club gets.
The AFL will continue to bail clubs out and that is what many are saying eventually should stop.

If you can't make your way in big business then operate your business in a industry that suits you budget, e.g WAFL, SANFL, VFL etc etc.

 

[Tulip]

Ideal League

Adelaide
Brisbane
Carlton
Collingwood
Essendon
Fremantle
Geelong
Gold Coast
Greater Western Sydney
Hawthorn
Port Adelaide
Richmond
St Kilda
Sydney
West Coast
Western Kangaroos

AFL Headquarters based in Alice Springs.

Rolling Draw.

okay then, don't include the oldest club in the world

@ the bold--lay off the VB for a night would you?

 

[Tulip]

Yep - Easily the most pathetic club in the league and needs to be the first one out. "But we're the oldest....but we're called Melbourne.... but we invented the game blah blah blah" Yes with all these advantages plus being a dominant club up until Menzies gave it away, you should be a powerhouse, but no your just a whinging useless club with no supporters, no premierships since grandpa was a boy, no heart and no future. Atleast North, without any of the historical advantages that Melbourne has had, have heart, passion and determination. What happens when the old boys network which is getting smaller and smaller doesn't bail you out next time? Melbourne should be the team in the gun, way in front of North or the Bulldogs.

You're a ****ing ******** mate. Words can't describe wahtg I think of you right now (and I'm sure many others), **** off you prick

 

[The Fireman]

Amazing, not long after one of the best posts in the thread, we are followed by this idiotic rubbish. But it does prove the point of the OP. Narrow minded, self centered, narcissistic Victorians are doing there best to destroy what was once a great game and a great part of our culture.

.

So you deny that Victoria is the home of football?

PS your obvious dislike of Victorians is just another example of the "SA chip on the shoulder syndrome" and you are the perfect example.

 

[invinciBlues]

So you deny that Victoria is the home of football?

I deny it.

Australia is the home of football. You wanna play semantics about where specifically, then go right ahead and name street in Melbourne where they codified the rules and have ten teams play there. Whats that? Too crowded you say?

But its the home of football!

Yours is a myopic, antiquated, and self-serving view of the game which handicaps its growth while claiming to do the opposite.

 

[Papa G]

You're a ****ing ******** mate. Words can't describe wahtg I think of you right now (and I'm sure many others), **** off you prick

If only your shit club had half your passion......

It's not the oldest club in the world anyway and even if it was, so what? Does that give it a right to be useless and consistently underperforming? The MFC hasn't been a relevant organisation since the 1960's. It's past it's used by date. My only hope is that it dies before it sees the fruits of the artificial draft advantages it gets as reward for being so shit.

 

[feenix67]

So you deny that Victoria is the home of football?

PS your obvious dislike of Victorians is just another example of the "SA chip on the shoulder syndrome" and you are the perfect example.

lol that ol' chestnut

 

[Slattery_20]

I deny it.

Australia is the home of football. You wanna play semantics about where specifically, then go right ahead and name street in Melbourne where they codified the rules and have ten teams play there. Whats that? Too crowded you say?

But its the home of football!

Yours is a myopic, antiquated, and self-serving view of the game which handicaps its growth while claiming to do the opposite.

Given there were 6 or 8 clubs within a 15min drive of each other in the inner suburbs, yeah I think it's fair to say it's a Melbourne born game.

It wasn't born in the NT. Nor QLD. Nor the Antarctic territories. It was born and grew up in the cobbled cramped streets of Carlton, Fitzroy, Collingwood etc. It's now outgrown that, but I don't think you can re-write history based on today.

 

[PowerForGood]

wonae - If they re-did the whole comp, picking only the strongest state teams, Fitzroy wouldn't have made it in anyway.

Port had everything in 2004 - seems like (to me) they basically ran themselves into the ground.
There has to be some element of sink-or-swim at some stage. Clubs have to know what is within their financial limits and spend accordingly. Running a nationally marketed club with $7M on player wages is probably not going to work with 15000 crowds.

Exactly how has the fabric of the game been ripped?

What about 25,000 crowds?

 

[PowerForGood]

Given there were 6 or 8 clubs within a 15min drive of each other in the inner suburbs, yeah I think it's fair to say it's a Melbourne born game.

It wasn't born in the NT. Nor QLD. Nor the Antarctic territories. It was born and grew up in the cobbled cramped streets of Carlton, Fitzroy, Collingwood etc. It's now outgrown that, but I don't think you can re-write history based on today.

Ummm.. Do I need to explain what "Port Adelaide est 1870" means?

Or are you trying to re-write history based on today?

Or are you just trying to reinforce the title of this thread?