Are Victorians holding football back?

[invinciBlues]

No. The primary reason for the AFL's existence, rightly or wrongly (most would say wrongly), is to put on a show for fans and make money out of it. It isn't a not-for-profit organisation, it's a business, and it's run as such. Most of the time, the interests of the clubs and the AFL overlap in this respect. However, this isn't always the case, and that's when you get situations like North/Gold Coast.

It's unfortunate, but that's capitalism for you.

The AFL is a not for profit organisation.

As well as building bigger markets, it also has the responsibility of sustainability. The stocks are very thin even over 16 teams, and some of you want 20 teams? Thats 160 extra players. Where do you think they are going to come from? Ireland? Its a give and take equation between growth and sustainability.

In order for the AFL to achieve domination (and thats the aim of the game here folks) there can't be an over-representation in Victoria. Yes the game was founded here but that it has to evolve. You get a lot of North people getting antsy over these sort of discussions, citing history and so on. But thats just the way it goes. Its harsh, but their figures are more suited to VFL anyways, or maybe they can merge with another club again.

I don't agree with the statement that simply because Melbourne is the home of football that we deserve 10 out of 16 teams. Most of the clubs who are small and have such discussions like this affect them directly weren't even founding clubs of the league, so I find their arcing up a little bemusing. Especially when they cite history.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

This whole argument is just a moronic penis envy thing. Do we give a shit that Rugby is 2/3rds NSW? Are we asking for them to disband their clubs and move them, get rid of SOO? No. We don't give a shit because we don't have an inferiority complex. Get over yourselves.

Your leagues capitulated to the VFL, that doesn't give you a right to expect our clubs to cease because you have a stick up your arse.

I completely agree mate... and it seems like that kind of rhetoric comes from much the same sources each time too.

Not to mention that there's a fair measure of double standards going on with these arguments at least in some cases, I would say. For instance, would any Carlton supporters have opposed the no-interest loan Carlton received several years ago, when they were in a similar situation? I doubt it.

Would any Carlton fans on BF have been arguing against the AFL giving them the special debt amnesty that they received earlier on this year, when the Carlton Football Club were unable to meet their financial obligations once again?

No, I very much doubt it.

That's even aside from the fact, incidentally, that Carlton actually receive higher levels of yearly funding from the AFL than the Demons.

I'll bet you that the Carlton supporter trumpeting his support on this thread for less clubs in Melbourne, and less assistance for Melbourne clubs, certainly wouldn't like it if it was his club on the chopping block, as it could very likely be in such a hypothetical scenario.

And I can tell you that the Melbourne Football Club didn't need deals like those I mentioned in order to solve our debt problems, that's for sure.

As for interstate teams in relation to such issues of financial sustainability... well, how much support (over and above that which the rest of the league receives) do teams like Sydney and Brisbane still need in various forms from the AFL, in order to maintain themselves?

How much cash is going to be ploughed into West Sydney and GC17?

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

What would make me really disgusted is if these clubs were forced/corralled to make a decision that they really didn't want to, in the name of progress. All current clubs have a license to participate in the AFL and the clubs most likely to move have been in this league for anywhere up to a century. They have the right to self-determination, and should be supported to the full extent by the AFL, whatever choice they choose to make.

What the AFL did to Fitzroy was criminal, they consciously created a situation whereby they could not compete. Ask Roylion and the others getting around here, the initiatives that Fitzroy developed which were knocked back by AFL House proves that as fact. They would be better than even money chance to still be in this competition if they had the full support of the AFL.

The primary reason for the AFL's existence is to serve the 16 AFL clubs to the best of their ability. Sometimes I feel that is forgotten, especially during the whole North Melbourne/Gold Coast incident.

Well said Tandino

And you couldn't be more right regarding the effective war waged against Fitzroy by the AFL, which can be attributed largely to Oakley, Samuel and Collins - and continued right the way through from 1984 to 1996.

I can offer 16 examples easily of various deliberate acts, including effective vetoes of initiatives developed by the Roys, and outright destructive actions designed purely to undermine the club's financial position and to force us to merge against our will- you can find the full list at http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15294169&postcount=60

 

[invinciBlues]

blah blah edit edit blah blah

What you fail to understand is Carlton is an asset to the league, gets people through the gates, more people watching on TV, more members...

You're too quick to compare a couple of loans to ongoing support needed by certain clubs.

seriously, if a smaller club had a similar decade to us, do you think for a second that they would still be here? Melbourne is still around because while it may not be the largest club, its supporters have deep pockets.

You also ignore the benefits that will be reaped by the AFL if they can get a serious foothold in QLD and NSW.

If you could wipe the tears from your eyes for a moment and look at this analytically for a moment, you'd see that sustainability is going to be an issue with Australia's low population and 20 teams. Not financial sustainability, I'm talking enough elite level athletes with a football brain.

More representation is required around areas that have a reasonable population. More to the point, greater representation is needed in other states.

I seriously doubt you're able to do this though. You just keep kicking and screaming about Fitzroy and holding your breath expecting the system to bend to your whim. Its time to get over it.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

What you call "kicking and screaming", as I recall, involved me posting large amounts of factual information, and you ignoring it.

For instance, I posted that 16-point rundown about Fitzroy (which I supplied a link to again in my last post) on another thread you were on, as I recall, and referred back to it several times, and you kept on acting as though the information wasn't even there

Ignoring everything that contradicts your opinion, which you then dress up as fact when you have not actually offered any real facts, engaging in ad hominem mudslinging, and uttering trite catchphrases like "get over it", does not cut it here.

Moreover, this nebulous talk about unspecified and unclear "benefits" does not make an effective argument.

The obvious negative consequences of alienating substantially more of the AFL's bedrock support, however, are very clear.

 

[Tulip]

Subi's capacity is only around 36k. You give them a 60k stadium, and they will fill it.

I've long been a fan of culling the number of Vic clubs so that a more representative competition arises. Supporters of the little clubs are myopic and are indeed holding the game back.

Just move a couple of the smaller clubs back to the VFL. I don't like the idea of relocating and merging but a move back to the VFL means they can still compete and hold onto their history.

It'd be better in the long run.

Okay then, lets uproot culture,break hearts and just chuck Melbourne, North, WB and St Kilda back into the VFL so you're 'big 4' teams can have a better chance of winning

Just because we can't pull 60000 diehards every week doesn't mean that there aren't 30000/40000 diehards still attending. Once again, its all about money for Carlton

 

[Tulip]

Teams of ltlle significance.

North Melbourne
Melbourne
Port Adelaide
Fremantle

that is all

Teams with no culture

West Coast
Fremantle
Adelaide
Brisbane (well not anymore after that monstrosity that they call a jumper was released)
Gold Coast
West Sydney

that is all

 

[invinciBlues]

(to return the favour)

Wona. you were *still* editing that post at the time I was writing my post. Why should I bother quoting you if you're just going to change it continuously for an hour and a half? If you aren't satified with it, then don't click reply until you are.

What you call "kicking and screaming", as I recall, involved me posting large amounts of factual information, and you completely ignoring it.

For instance, I posted that 16-point rundown about Fitzroy (which I supplied a link to again in my last post) on another thread you were on, as I recall, and referred back to it several times, and you kept on acting as though the information wasn't even there

No, I just recognise that your 16 point run down is by and large redundant. To what end will it come to? Is Fitzroy going to be re-admitted?

Putting your head in the sand, ignoring everything that contradicts your opinion, which you then dress up as fact when you have not actually substantiated anything, and uttering trite catchphrases like "get over it", does not cut it here.

I haven't ignored anything. The thread is discussing whether Victorians are inhibiting the growth of the AFL. I think nationally it would benefit from having less teams in Victoria and more interstate. You keep crying crying about Fitzroy and the only argument you ever bring to these discussions is "What about Carlton having to borrow money that one time?!?!?!"

Moreover, this nebulous talk about unspecified and unclear "benefits" does not make an effective argument.

I see no reason why the AFL should, on top of the GWS fishing expedition which mammoth amounts of money is set to be poured into, and the GC17 project which is likely to take equally long to generate a decent support base, and is equally chancy in some ways, then take a flyer on setting up new clubs in areas where the odds of establishing a decent support base are even lower - and jettison established clubs with long-established support bases in the process.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If the GWS and GC work in 20 years time, it will no doubt benefit all teams everywhere as the talent pool will have grown - which is the whole damn point. Which you could see if you could move your focus away from Fitzroy and look at it on a macroscopic scale.

The bone of contention is can the suffering Victorian clubs sweat it out for that long? I'm not too sure.

 

[Tulip]

I think anyone who can hold their emotions out of it sees there are too many Victorian teams in the AFL. 2-3 need to go back to the VFL. They keep their culture that way and the supporters can still support the VFL team. I suspect 3 will be gone within a decade, making it a 16 team competition again with Tasmania joining.

aren't you already in the big league?

 

[invinciBlues]

Jesus christ. Stop editing your posts. This is why I just snipped your post the first time. It changes every second I hit refresh.

 

[Tulip]

I have no problem if North/Melbourne/Dogs/etc feel that the best way forward is to relocate, then they should have the full support of the industry.

What would make me really disgusted is if these clubs were forced/corralled to make a decision that they really didn't want to, in the name of progress. All current clubs have a license to participate in the AFL and the clubs most likely to move have been in this league for anywhere up to a century. They have the right to self-determination, and should be supported to the full extent by the AFL, whatever choice they choose to make.

What the AFL did to Fitzroy was criminal, they consciously created a situation whereby they could not compete. Ask Roylion and the others getting around here, the initiatives that Fitzroy developed which were knocked back by AFL House proves that as fact. They would be better than even money chance to still be in this competition if they had the full support of the AFL.

The primary reason for the AFL's existence is to serve the 16 AFL clubs to the best of their ability. Sometimes I feel that is forgotten, especially during the whole North Melbourne/Gold Coast incident.

a century and a half actually, when big Jeff suggested relocating us

 

[invinciBlues]

Teams with no culture

West Coast
Fremantle
Adelaide
Brisbane (well not anymore after that monstrosity that they call a jumper was released)
Gold Coast
West Sydney

that is all

And thats just a childish post to make. Just because a club hasn't been around for as long as others doesnt mean they don't culture and are "soulless".

By your logic I could name every club in the league bar Melbourne and Geelong as not having culture and being a soulless franchise.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

No, I just recognise that your 16 point run down is by and large redundant. To what end will it come to? Is Fitzroy going to be re-admitted?

The issue at that time, was that you were making unbacked statements continuously about the situation of Fitzroy at that time, which were completely contradicted by the facts I continually referred to, which you effectively ignored.

But moving on from this point.

The bone of contention is can the suffering Victorian clubs sweat it out for that long? I'm not too sure.

As far as I can see, Melbourne are in a more secure financial position than Carlton at this time, and we are only forging ahead further in this regard.

Whereas I wouldn't be at all surprised if Carlton ended up in another financial hole later on, and had to go back, cap in hand, to the AFL for extraordinary loan arrangements.

If the GWS and GC work in 20 years time, it will no doubt benefit all teams everywhere as the talent pool will have grown - which is the whole damn point.

IF a substantial enough support base can be achieved in those areas. That is the question.

But it should not be at the expense of the bedrock of the sport.

If you're looking for an example of a league taking the kind of measures you describe, eliminating bedrock clubs and setting up new clubs in highly chancy areas, resulting in disaster, I can do no better than to refer to the Super League fiasco back in 1995.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Jesus christ. Stop editing your posts. This is why I just snipped your post the first time. It changes every second I hit refresh.

Fair enough, it's force of habit I guess. I'll look to keep my postings more static.

 

[invinciBlues]

As far as I can see, Melbourne are in a more secure financial position than Carlton at this time, and we are only forging ahead further in this regard.

Whereas I wouldn't be at all surprised if Carlton ended up in another financial hole later on, and had to go back, cap in hand, to the AFL for extraordinary loan arrangements.

Whats your obsession with Carlton's finances? No doubt every club will need a hand up at some point. Shit, even Collingwood isn't immune to bad financial decisions.

IF a substantial enough support base can be achieved in those areas. That is the question.

But it should not be at the expense of the bedrock of the sport.

If you're looking for an example of a league taking the kind of measures you describe, eliminating bedrock clubs and setting up new clubs in highly chancy areas, resulting in disaster, I can do no better than to refer to the Super League fiasco back in 1995.

I think you're simplifying the Super League War a bit. (I just read the wiki page the other day, and its not as cut and dried as that).

Look, I don't think its an easy position - the VFL backed itself into this mess when in the early 80s it decided to ignore the WAFL and SANFL and decided to expand itself independently rather than with them. Which is why they had to go Sydney and Brisbane first because WA and SA wouldnt play ball. At least this is my understanding of the situation, I wasn't there, so I'm happy to be corrected on this.

WA and SA are as much bedrock as you get. Without these states our sport wouldnt be where it is. They've been playing footy almost as long as us and for supporters of Vic clubs to call them soulless is disrespectful to their state's footy heritage. They set up these "franchises" because they werent given an option to do otherwise.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

You know what? I'm not the least bit concerned about the future of Australian Rules Football. I nearly said "our game", but it's not any more. Years ago we sold our soul, and the game, to the money people, and now we watch helplessly as the game spirals out of control to it's impending demise.

It's a pity really, Aussie Rules used to be such a great game.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Does the fact that the AFL is dominated by Victorian teams and comprise of most of footballers followers mean that they are holding the game back?

Ive heard some Victorians state that they wish that the AFL would revert back into the VFL!

I believe that the continual whinging from some Victorian Football fans has resulted in the game only expanding to Sydney on a national level in the 80's, and is currently holding the game back internationally.

Demitriou and his team are great in the fact he is trying to grow football outside of traditional areas, and are beginning to realise the benefits of growing football outside of Australian shores.
People on Bigfooty sometimes refer to non-Victorian clubs as interstate clubs.

Growing the game outside of traditional areas will only increase its appeal!!

All of which implies that expansion and control is in itself an ideal to be cherished. From those of us who don't share it, **** you.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

First off, I'm encouraged by the manner of your post here

Whats your obsession with Carlton's finances? No doubt every club will need a hand up at some point. Shit, even Collingwood isn't immune to bad financial decisions.

That's very true. In fact, it's hard to think of more than a few AFL clubs who haven't needed particular support at times.

However, with the new stadium deals, I'd be confident that all Melbourne clubs will now have a greater degree of financial security.

I think you're simplifying the Super League War a bit. (I just read the wiki page the other day, and its not as cut and dried as that).

Perhaps so. But the main issues I was referring to in that context were the attempts to run RL teams in Adelaide & Perth, and the substantial reduction of NSW teams.

Look, I don't think its an easy position - the VFL backed itself into this mess when in the early 80s it decided to ignore the WAFL and SANFL and decided to expand itself independently rather than with them.

That's a fair call.

I'd also add that the AFL under Oakley, for instance, effectively denied themselves a chance of a strong base in Canberra, as a consequence of one of the many destructive anti-Fitzroy manoeuvres during that time.

WA and SA are as much bedrock as you get. Without these states our sport wouldnt be where it is. They've been playing footy almost as long as us and for supporters of Vic clubs to call them soulless is disrespectful to their state's footy heritage. They set up these "franchises" because they weren't given an option to do otherwise.

Again, that's a fair enough statement.

My main point there was that this kind of expansion needs to be handled in such a way that it doesn't end up endangering existing clubs. It didn't have to happen that way before either, of course.

Enough irreparable damage has been done already. That must be avoided at all costs.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Years ago we sold our soul, and the game, to the money people, and now we watch helplessly as the game spirals out of control to it's impending demise.

It's a pity really, Aussie Rules used to be such a great game.

Yeah, I would say that trend of erosion began in earnest back in the mid-80s, but became entrenched by the mid-90s.

Once Fitzroy were forced past the point of no return, everything changed.

But it didn't have to happen that way...

 

[Godzke]

Does anyone honestly think Victoria can sustain 10 teams in the future? Our game is so much more commercialised than what it has been and no more than ever (and naturally it will continue to become more competitive) the AFL is a cut-throat industry. Small clubs could get away with survival in the old days but today the majority of them are looking for handouts or living off existing ones. St Kilda's recent request for funding from a team that dominated last season is ridiculous (and previous seasons).

I look back at the last few seasons when the Kangaroos have struggled big time off the field. But on the field? They've done pretty well in the sense that they've made a number of finals. It just makes me think if the Kangaroos experienced the same last 5 years as Carlton whether they would've had any choice but to move to the Gold Coast.

With the introduction of two new teams and the existing teams getting choked out of the next few drafts, it will only extend the period of rebuilding that club will soon be going through.

As much as I admire the Kangas, I have feeling they'll be merging/relocating before 2015. I have a feeling the Saints and possibly the WBD would be in the same boat if it wasn't for the fact they're both within their premiership windows.

 

[gbatman]

interstate teams were dominating a few years back, it's a cycle.

 

[Yellow Feathers]

Anyone with a true passion for the game wouldnt want to revert to the VFL. Imagine all the interstate tallent that you would never get to see play by closing yourselves in?

Im a mad West Coast supporter, but i'll still be happy to watch a richmond v port adelaide game on a sunday arvo just because im also mad about footy. I just enjoy it for what it is.

Sydney V West Coast grand finals, packed MCG. I bet a lot of the crowd were supporters of Melbourne teams, too.

 

[Yellow Feathers]

Also, i dont think we should judge a football team on the number of supporters it has. Look at Collingwood, couldn't win a flag to save themselves and consist of the biggest bunch of bogans and whingers ever to be grouped together.

 

[On the Boyle]

This is a bit of a rubbish statement IMO.

I'm South Australian, and the numbers you get at a Port match (when they're winning) is embarrassing. I don't know what happened to footy in this state, it seems as though there was more passion when it was SANFL.

Crows supporters turn out in droves with their membership, but the second they have to double-dip (to get finals tickets), the heart goes out of it.

Port support? Even when I wasn't a Hawthorn member, I never bothered to buy tickets until I got to the ground, that was even in their premiership year when we were a bucket of proverbial.

As for Victoria holding it back? I see GWS and GC as a joke "we're making the sport national..." with Tasmania and NT, where AFL is THE sport, they still get nothing?

NRL is declining, and we're expected to pick the spoils from that carcass?

In my opinion, the bulk of the derision over GC and GWS is whether it'll work. A failed venture AND we lose players - no wonder people are upset.

 

[NQTIGER]

Can't believe some of the comments on this thread. If it wasn't for the interstate clubs joining the VFL, you would have less clubs in the AFL /VFL. Why, all new clubs payed a licence fee of 4 million if my memory is correct. Sydney even payed this several times even though they are a original club of the VFL. Anyway having more clubs increased TV rights, sponsorship, etc etc.

Why did the Victorian clubs vote on this, money cause there where a few of the big clubs that where in financial trouble at the time and the VFL wanted football over the whole weekend not just Saturday because the Vic government at the time would not allow the VFL to play on a Sunday cause that was the day VFA played, remember the VFA. Two divisions of Suburban football clubs, finals down at the Junction oval, ohh the memories.

So all the Victorians and I'm a Victorian stop, bitching about something you can't change and what you brought on yourselves

Who payed it? Apart from Edelstein promising to pay ( and the cheque is still in the mail) the VFL/AFL payed it.

how many times was sydney broke?

I havent got enough fingers on my hands to count that, and you will be asking for handouts again soon when you have competition in your town.

Already you guys are whinging about WSYD and the affect it will have on your great club.

FFS sydney has had more lives than a cat, at least we got ourselves out of our financial mess with out relying on the other clubs to prop us up.

But then again you might only be an 8 year old and dont know what actually happened.

Try reading Football INC , BTW this also applies to the Brisbane Bears/Lions whose succes was created by the Rape of fitzroy.