Win Prizes Ask an Atheist II

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[Roylion]

The first cause

Hardly worthy of worship or acknowledgement if that is actually the case. But there is no evidence of such a ‘cause’

 

[Vdubs]

All DNA and RNA bases have now been discovered in meteorites

Meteorites hold all five DNA and RNA bases, hinting that life's ingredients may come from space!

digitimed.com

"We are all star dust" Carl Sagan, how right he was!



So what? People believe in all kinds of weird stuff. 3 billion people believe in ghosts. 3 million people in the US alone have seen UFOs (apparently). I would rather have questions that cannot be answered that answers that cannot be questioned. DNA/RNA etc are not miracles, they came from space, no one made it like you guys believe. We now have evidence.

No amount of feel good stories will disprove this fact. But as they if it makes you sleep better at night so be it.

The reality of conversions in real people is something you can not simply explain away the way you try to.
You love quoting gurus who support your theories, or whose theories you support, more to the point.
I love quoting Jesus, Paul, and those whose lives have been utterly transformed by turning to God via Jesus- it does not necessarily alleviate my insomnia, but that's on me.
Jesus is real today, like He was 2000 plus years ago.
Changed lives.
People might move and doubt and backslide and lose faith by circumstances, but God is always there

 

[Chief]

This is peppered moth stuff. It goes nowhere near explaining how we and all the other species ended up here via a huge number of highly unlikely rearrangements of amino acids.

It explains EXACTLY how we ended up here, and how we will end up somewhere else in a million years.

Random mutation filtered by the environment over time.

 

[Vdubs]

It explains EXACTLY how we ended up here, and how we will end up somewhere else in a million years.

Random mutation filtered by the environment over time.

That you prefer to believe that than the possibility of a Creative Power (God) at work is as simplistic and unprovable and ridiculous as what you lot say about a Creation by God, that is also affected by time and natural evolution.

 

[carltonchelsea]

The reality of conversions in real people is something you can not simply explain away the way you try to.
You love quoting gurus who support your theories.
I love quoting Jesus, Paul, and those whose lives have been utterly transformed by turning to God via Jesus- it does not necessarily alleviate my insomnia, but that's on me.
Jesus is real today, like He was 2000 plus years ago.
Changed lives.
People might move and doubt and backslide and lose faith by circumstances, but God is always there

Can you quote one word uttered by Yeshua, that can be categorically be attributed to him?
Bring receipts please!?

 

[Vdubs]

Can you quote one word uttered by Yeshua, that can be categorically be attributed to him?
Bring receipts please!?

plenty
do you understand Aramaic?

• "Talitha cumi” in Mark 5:41
• “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” in Mark 15:34
• “Ephphatha”in Mark 7:34
• “Abba” in Mark 14:36

 

[carltonchelsea]

plenty

Ok, let’s see them and the receipts!
Cheers!

 

[Roylion]

That you prefer to believe that than the possibility of a Creative Power (God) at work is as simplistic and unprovable

Yet there is far more evidence in support of evolution than a 'Creative Power". 'God' was created in man's image, not the other way around.

 

[Vdubs]

Yet there is far more evidence in support of evolution than a 'Creative Power". 'God' was created in man's image, not the other way around.

Why do you obstinately continue this mutually exclusive argument?
It can easily be both, and most likely is. God The Creator, with evolution at work.

 

[Roylion]

Why do you obstinately continue this mutually exclusive argument?

Because you make statements such as "That you prefer to believe that,.. [evolution] ...than the possibility of a Creative Power (God) at work is as simplistic and unprovable and ridiculous as what you lot say about a Creation by God."

Your statement is not correct.

Evolution is scientific fact.

It can easily be both, and most likely is. God The Creator, with evolution at work.

Did I not say, only a few posts ago, that...."

"Evolution has nothing to do as to whether there is a 'god' or not."

 

[Vdubs]

Because you make statements such as "That you prefer to believe that than the possibility of a Creative Power (God) at work is as simplistic and unprovable and ridiculous as what you lot say about a Creation by God."

Your statement is not correct.


Did I not say, only a few posts ago, that...."

"Evolution has nothing to do as to whether there is a 'god' or not."

well if you did, we have some agreement

 

[Roylion]

well if you did, we have some agreement

I've always said that. Go back and take a look.

While evolution is scientific fact, the existence of a so-called "Creator" by whatever name one wants to call it, is mere speculation.

 

[Boston tiger]

Science is the study of the handiwork of God.

 

[travelli]

Extra Ecclesium Nulla Sallus

So what was the pope thinking?

Bad pope or progressive?

 

[sdfc]

Evolution has nothing to do as to whether there is a 'god' or not.

Define 'god'.

I don't have a definition of god. I use it as short hand for there might be something else going on than just chance.

I agree evolution has nothing to do with whether there's a god, whatever that means, but the process does.

Do atheists believe we got here by pure chance? And what god is it they don't believe in?

It is the ask an atheist thread after all.

 

[liz]

That you prefer to believe that than the possibility of a Creative Power (God) at work is as simplistic and unprovable and ridiculous as what you lot say about a Creation by God, that is also affected by time and natural evolution.

So you believe that humans (and other life forms) are the result of time and evolution?

 

[liz]

And what god is it they don't believe in?

I don’t believe in any entity that:

- deliberately and purposefully designed the planet we live on

- that has a special place in its heart for the human race

- that is omnipotent and omniscient

- that is vengeful and vain, demands we worship it, yet chooses to reveal itself in a piecemeal and opaque fashion

 

[sdfc]

It explains EXACTLY how we ended up here, and how we will end up somewhere else in a million years.

Random mutation filtered by the environment over time.

Time is just a balancing item to make evolution by random mutation appear less unlikely.

 

[sdfc]

I don’t believe in any entity that:

- deliberately and purposefully designed the planet we live on

- that has a special place in its heart for the human race

- that is omnipotent and omniscient

- that is vengeful and vain, demands we worship it, yet chooses to reveal itself in a piecemeal and opaque fashion

So you don't believe in the bible god but there might be something else? Or are we here by pure chance?

 

[liz]

So you don't believe in the bible god but there might be something else? Or are we here by pure chance?

I think the term "pure chance" is meaningless. Just as our brains aren't equipped to really understand the world of sub-atomic particles other than by creating mathematical models that require highly specialised knowledge to follow through to their implications, and still don't provide the kind of "understanding" that we feel of the tangible world around us, our brains struggle to comprehend the power of truly huge numbers.

I don't claim to understand how "life" emerged on Earth - though I have read a little about the various conjectures that scientists have proposed and investigated. Once it did, I don't find it hard to believe we got to where we got to, even though where we got to was far from inevitable.

I also believe it is almost certain that there is, or has been, "life" on other bits of rock in the universe. Whether it is (or was) anything we would recognise as life, there is such a vast number of other bits of rock in the universe that I think it is inevitable that, on some, the precise conditions exist, or existed, to enable "life" to emerge.

 

[sdfc]

We've gone though this all before with the scientific theory of evolution and natural selection. Evolution isn't predictable, and randomness is key in determining how things change. But that's not the same as saying life evolves by chance. That's because while the cause of evolution is random (mutations in our genes) the processes of evolution (natural selection) is not.

Mutations as part of the evolutionary process are "random" in the sense that the sort of mutation that occurs cannot generally be predicted based upon the needs of the organism.

However, this does not imply that all mutations are equally likely to occur or that mutations happen without any physical cause. Indeed, some regions of the genome are more likely to sustain mutations than others, and various physical causes (e.g., radiation) are known to cause particular types of mutations.

Most mutations are "naturally-occurring." For example, when a cell divides, it makes a copy of its DNA — and sometimes the copy is not quite perfect. That small difference from the original DNA sequence is a mutation. Also DNA, including the DNA within sperm and eggs, is easily damaged. And when it is, a cell does its best to put the strand back together perfectly. But sometimes it mistakenly substitutes one genetic letter for another, generating a mutation.

In humans, each offspring has around 70 new mutations.

In any case, natural selection favors mutations that confer a fitness benefit to the individuals that carry them. The process of selection winds up sorting through randomly generated mutations, weeding out some and favoring others.

You're jumping the gun and assuming the mutation is viable in the first place. A highly unlikely event.

So, the evolution that occurs through natural selection is not random at all, even though the genetic variation, upon which natural selection acts, is generated by random mutations.

Evolution via random genetic mutation is by definition random.

But even so, as was said above, mutations are "random" in the sense that the sort of mutation that occurs cannot generally be predicted based upon the needs of the organism.

Discussing mutations based on the needs of the organism is an attempt to remove the randomness and suggests your arguing for evolution by random genetic mutation by removing random genetic mutation.

There is an enormous amount of supporting evidence that suggests all living organisms derived from a common ancestor long ago. Hence evolution.

DNA for example is very good evidence of evolution.

We know how DNA works, we know the rate DNA mutates.

The closeness of the relations between various life forms on the planet is measured by similar DNA. A complete set of human DNA has a total of 3.3 billion letters. You are different from me because every now and then, you have a different letter from me at a certain spot. So maybe at position 17, 456 and 327, I have an A and you have a G.

A dog’s complete set of DNA is a bit smaller with only 2.8 billion letters. Only 25% of the DNA sequence in the dog genome exactly matches the human sequence. When the tiny changes in the other 75% of the DNA are piled up across 25,000 genes and across trillions of cells in the body, the results are two very different organisms. What this does show is that at sometime in the past every human in the world and every dog in the world had a common ancestor. Common descent.

The DNA that just appears out of nowhere? Those tiny changes are major changes at the molecular level. Mutations to long sequences of amino acids to make new proteins that not only have to not kill the organism but change it into a completely new type of organism.

3.3 billion sounds like a big number. Let's say the average protein in an animal is a chain of 200 amino acids (I think it's more but can't be arsed looking it up) There are 20 amino acids in the genetic code. That's 20^200 possible combinations, but only a relatively small number will make a viable protein let alone create a new type of creature. That calculation then as to happen over and over again.

 

[sdfc]

I think the term "pure chance" is meaningless. Just as our brains aren't equipped to really understand the world of sub-atomic particles other than by creating mathematical models that require highly specialised knowledge to follow through to their implications, and still don't provide the kind of "understanding" that we feel of the tangible world around us, our brains struggle to comprehend the power of truly huge numbers.

Or numbers so small they are essentially zero if we are talking about chance.

Do you think winning div one lotto would not be pure chance? With evolution by genetic mutation we are talking about numbers much smaller than the probability of winning lotto.

I don't claim to understand how "life" emerged on Earth - though I have read a little about the various conjectures that scientists have proposed and investigated. Once it did, I don't find it hard to believe we got to where we got to, even though where we got to was far from inevitable.

I don't know how we got here either so I can't say you're wrong.

I also believe it is almost certain that there is, or has been, "life" on other bits of rock in the universe. Whether it is (or was) anything we would recognise as luck, there is such a vast number of other bits of rock in the universe that I think it is inevitable that, on some, the precise conditions exist, or existed, to enable "life" to emerge.

Maybe.

 

[liz]

Or numbers so small they are essentially zero if we are talking about chance.

Do you think winning div one lotto would not be pure chance? With evolution by genetic mutation we are talking about numbers much smaller than the probability of winning lotto.

I don't know how we got here either so I can't say you're wrong.

Maybe.

And yet people do win division one lottery. Not every draw, but it’s not rare. If there were only one person playing every week the chance of it being won would be low. But with millions of people playing, it’s not low.

Another way to approach this: think about tossing a fair coin 1000 times. The chance of you predicting the exact sequence of heads and tails is a minuscule number. But actually toss that coin and you will get a sequence. The fact that any one outcome is tiny doesn’t mean the chance of any outcome is small. In fact, that probability is exactly 1. You will get an outcome.

So if we go back to the moment (or more likely, moments) that life emerged on Earth, the chance of it resembling exactly what we have today was low. But the chance of some outcome emerging wasn’t. And what has emerged is what we have right now. In a few days (or a few minutes) it will be minutely different. As it was a few minutes ago.

Furthermore, you’re ignoring what has been pointed out to you several times in this thread. The process of evolution is not random. It is the combination of a quasi-random process (mutation) and a non-random process (selection). Combine the two, add a huge amount of time, and the chance of ending up vaguely where we are now is much higher than your intuition tells you.

 

[Total Power]

The reality of conversions in real people is something you can not simply explain away the way you try to.

Dude, feelings, perceptions got nothing to do with what i just said. FFS i never denied that you sincerely BELIEVE that you have jesus in your life.

You love quoting gurus who support your theories, or whose theories you support, more to the point.

I support no theories. I look for evidences, not belief. You have faith by definition which means absence of evidence. "It came in my dreams" or "I felt Jesus in my life" is not evidence, it's a made up truth...YOUT TRUTH the one you choose to believe.

Did you read my link above? all 5 compounds required to support life came from space, not from god.

Checkmate.

I love quoting Jesus, Paul, and those whose lives have been utterly transformed by turning to God via Jesus- it does not necessarily alleviate my insomnia, but that's on me.

Sure if belief in something helps you, i am all for it. I have no problems with you believing in Jesus, Allah, Krishna whatever.

Jesus is real today, like He was 2000 plus years ago.

Uh no, you fail here. There was no Jesus as mentioned in the NT. NT is a made up stuff that was re-written over 1000 times till 1200 AD by many people. None of them were eyewitness'. Imagine with the technology we have now, we have so much fake news, imagine 2,000 years ago.

If Jesus was real, why no mention of him outside the Gospels till 100 years after his death?

Must have led an unremarkable life.

You shouting out loud claiming it's REAL doesn't change anything.

Changed lives.

lol!

The mind is easily and universally deceived by its own held beliefs: whatever you believe in seems to be true. This is true for every religion. Mormons swear by Joseph Smith that his testimony has touched their lives.

In effect, you interpret reality through your belief system, comparing real experience to the understanding you hold in your complex subconscious store of information and values. You thus skew your interpretation to fit your pre-set beliefs.

People might move and doubt and backslide and lose faith by circumstances, but God is always there

You seem to make a lot of loaded statements by putting words in peoples mouth. People lost faith cause it's absurd and maybe in the age of science, education and technology your con is found out? i lost my faith cause i read history, mythology etc.

When Jesus traced his ancestry back to Adam, you think he was serious? there was no Adam period. Did Jesus know Adam and Eve was plagurised from Babylonian myth?

Again, stop making loaded statements. You have no idea why people are dumping your religion in record numbers.

 

[Total Power]

So what was the pope thinking?

Bad pope or progressive?

I have deep objections to ALL claims of exclusivity. My religion, my belief is the right belief is what all religions do. When has it ever been different, outside of Buddhism, they are pretty much all the same.

Not to mention there is NO honest reason for a claim of us needing salvation. the claim is based on a absurd construct of Christianity, that of Original Sin. There is no concept of OS in the Hebrew Bible or OT. In Judaism, the religion of Jesus, we are not born tainted with sin but pure and innocent with no need of a saviour. This odd concept originated with Augustine in the 3rd century but it has no basis in fact. If it did, it would be part of Judaism as well, but it is not.

Playing on human insecurity and fear, is the oldest trick in the book to get someone to follow you. See Donald Trump, the brown guys are coming here to take your jobs and rape your women. Vote for me and i will be your savior, i will stop the wars and Make America Great Again.

Replace Trump with a divine object and you get an Abhramic God.