Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[EagleMan87]

What's Israel doing at the moment? with who's munitions?

What did the US do in Iraq? how many medical facilities in Fallujah

Is Libya doing well after the NATO bombing run and SAS insertion

Sober up and sort yourself out mate, this is getting embarrassing.

 

[Zidane98]

Sober up and sort yourself out mate, this is getting embarrassing.

You won't get much out of him/her until around 6pm-10pm St Petersburg time daily.

 

[barreness]

In what way are countries of Europe vassals of the US? Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, in which way does the USA exert power over any of these?

There's a difference between choosing the same democratic and economic structure and having one forced upon you.

Choosing democracy is not becoming a vassal state to every other democracy in the world. Unlike becoming a vassal to Russia's oligarchy.

Joining NATO is becoming a vassal to whatever the US decides is geopolitical policy. The interesting one is Hungary, Orban meeting with everyone pertinent to this war recently, queue the we must kick them out of NATO and the EU.

'Choosing democracy" is naive imo, you get a certain amount of leash but it's not far. As you note they have the same economic structure, which is really where the rubber hits the road, submit to the corps or you get couped

 

[barreness]

Why do you continually try to drag this thread into bullshit topics like CO2, de-population, global warming, and all the things the US and the West have done wrong in the past. I notice you really ramped up dragging off topic when Russia hit the kid's hospital.

No shit the US has done some shit things - and there are thread(s) in which you can discuss it (and where you try to draw a long bow to justify posting it here, you are probably looking for the "Backdrop to the war in Ukraine" thread).

And the things they've done that you keep raising - I don't see anyone here applying double-standards where they say what the US/West have done is acceptable. It is shit when the US, Israel or anyone in the West (and North, South or East) do it; and it is shit when Russia does it too (which is the topic of this thread).

The only double-standards I see applied in this thread is you.

I didn't start any of the side tracks, a bunch here have been bringing up USSR history and the like, I'm just responding

You criticise Ukraine for fighting for their land, fighting for their people and their culture, and blame them for unnecessary deaths - your thoughts on Ukraine are very clear:

I've never criticised them for fighting, they've done bloody well considering. I criticise the west for soft couping them, continuing to advance eastwards, and arming them to the last Ukrainian(not to win)

The 'remain vassal' comment is with respect to Ukrainian leadership, they underestimated Russia and overestimated NATO support. Reminder that Zelesky was elected on a peace platform

But when anyone blames Putin for the war and the blood of 10s or 100s of thousands of poor Russian soldiers, your thoughts on Russia/Putin are also clear.

Wars don't happen in a vacuum. Of course Putin is to blame for all the deaths in this war, doesn't mean it's not avoidable or could have been finished 2 years ago

Where's the consistency? And you wonder why you get referred to as a Vatnik.

I have been consistent. You can maintain some sovereignty and still function as a vassal, Does Australia have sovereignty?
Once again, this stuff works
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

 

[barreness]

What does that have to do with Russia ?

'The main culprit of hospital attacks over the last 70 years has been Russia, Syria and the Taliban.'

This bit mainly, I disagree

 

[barreness]

i don't need to pick one.

Its a nonsense position to have.

the only people that have it are usually white people wanting less non white people, there is no other reason.

You'll see eventually, it's too late already though. It's the liberal position, I don't need to pick between climate and people, that's fine until both collapse around you

I do get that it has been used by racists in the past, eugenics and all that jazz, but that's not my argument. Malthus was a racist eugenicist but his argument wasn't wrong in the long term

 

[barreness]

So Russia abstained and then sooked-up after. Sounds like them.

Yep, and that's why they're still in Syria

 

[barreness]

Imagine reading history in this way that you view the murderous Russian KGB agents who took over Russia as pawns of a bunch of US economists?

Yes, some nerd Professor from Chicago twisted Putin's arm until he killed all his rivals and stole everything. And then the professors went home with nothing but satisfaction?

Poor old Vlad Putin, bullied by the economics department.

It's fairy tale stuff.

Vlad was but a mid level officer in 1991, he sided with the 'reformists' and pursued a political career

The Russian economy was drastically changed in a few years(months/weeks really) under neoliberal economists(both internal and external), this led to massive poverty and destitution, the wholesale privatisation of state owned stuff to members of the ruling class is well known.

The economists went home knowing they had broken Russia for a generation and served US interests. An oligarchal regime emerged and now they're doing irredentist stuff, colour me shocked

 

[barreness]

Sober up and sort yourself out mate, this is getting embarrassing.

I may be an alcoholic but at least I argue points champ

 

[Cap]

You'll see eventually, it's too late already though. It's the liberal position, I don't need to pick between climate and people, that's fine until both collapse around you

I do get that it has been used by racists in the past, eugenics and all that jazz, but that's not my argument. Malthus was a racist eugenicist but his argument wasn't wrong in the long term

No they want.

even now the human global population is likely to have peaked, a better use of resources is all we need.

 

[Cap]

'The main culprit of hospital attacks over the last 70 years has been Russia, Syria and the Taliban.'

This bit mainly, I disagree

of course you do, you are trying to creative a narrative that's just wrong.

I remember when the US hit a medical facility in Afghanistan(edit - not Iraq), the soliders got in trouble. Russian soliders get congratulated

I get it, you want to be an edge lord going against the narrative, but you are wrong.

 

[Saint]

Vlad was but a mid level officer in 1991, he sided with the 'reformists' and pursued a political career

The Russian economy was drastically changed in a few years(months/weeks really) under neoliberal economists(both internal and external), this led to massive poverty and destitution, the wholesale privatisation of state owned stuff to members of the ruling class is well known.

The economists went home knowing they had broken Russia for a generation and served US interests. An oligarchal regime emerged and now they're doing irredentist stuff, colour me shocked

This is the one of the weakest ways of trying to blame Russia's problems, caused and perpetuated by Russians, on the USA. Russia created its own problems and made its own decisions. It's delusional to think anyone forced it to do anything, let alone a bunch of economists.

Yeah, and Putin was just a mid-level officer twiddling his thumbs and accidentally murdered his way to the top. Again, a complete fantasy.

It just doesn't make any sense. It's blaming kleptocracy on the US, when Russia has shown for decades since that they intended kleptocracy all along.

 

[Zidane98]

I didn't start any of the side tracks, a bunch here have been bringing up USSR history and the like.

It is entirely relevant because Putin & his gang of Nazis are stuck in a cold war era mindset and honestly believe in a new "great Russian empire". Russia as a nation really needs to completely purge Putin/Lavrov & co and find a new, younger leadership that wants to be a part of Europe on a bilateral level.

I'm just responding

Very poorly.

I've never criticised them for fighting, they've done bloody well considering. I criticise the west for soft couping them, continuing to advance eastwards, and arming them to the last Ukrainian(not to win)

There was no coup, this is a Russian falsehood. In all of this not once have you ever actually what the people of Ukraine want. It's always about Russia. Newsflash - Ukraine isn't Russia, never will be Russia ever again. And again, with the fighting to the last Ukrainian nonsense. Ukranians are fighting because they want to be rid of Nazi dictators like Putin for good. Not because they are being told to or provided limited support. In the case of the US, no support for the last 12 months until recently.

Of course nothing from yourself about Iran & North Korea fighting to the last Russian...

The 'remain vassal' comment is with respect to Ukrainian leadership,

Ukraine hasn't been a vassal of Russia since 2012, will never be one again. That upsets fascist dictators like Putin.

they underestimated Russia

Rubbish. Multiple treaties were signed with Russia, they've done deals with Russia to transit gas to Europe. They allowed Russia to sign a new lease on Sevastopol up until 2042 (now null & void thanks to your mate Putin being an invading Nazi)

and overestimated NATO support.

Peace in Europe is the goal of NATO. It is the opposite for Putin. NATO member nations have provided support on this basos

Reminder that Zelesky was elected on a peace platform

Ah yes, he should be to blame because he wouldn't capitulate to Russia and become another Lukashenko.

Wars don't happen in a vacuum. Of course Putin is to blame for all the deaths in this war, doesn't mean it's not avoidable or could have been finished 2 years ago

Putin is to blame and yes, this should never have even started two years ago.

Of course, and the backdrop was Putin believing (incorrectly) that Ukraine isn't a real nation and that it is effectively owed to Russia. Any attempts at Ukraine integrating itself into the European community were seen by Putin as one step further away from him subjugating Ukraine for the benefit of Russia.

The cold hard facts are Ukraine not wanting to be a vassall of Russia is absolutely not a reason to attack or invade a state. Not since WW2 have we seen such a large invasion of what is a completely non hostile state. You should be ashamed of the invasion.

I have been consistent. You can maintain some sovereignty and still function as a vassal,

Very consistent, almost like you are reading from a script.

Does Australia have sovereignty?
Once again, this stuff works
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

Yes, Australia has sovereignty. And quite a bit of power due to demand for its natural resources.

 

[Seeds]

Vlad was but a mid level officer in 1991, he sided with the 'reformists' and pursued a political career

The Russian economy was drastically changed in a few years(months/weeks really) under neoliberal economists(both internal and external), this led to massive poverty and destitution, the wholesale privatisation of state owned stuff to members of the ruling class is well known.

The economists went home knowing they had broken Russia for a generation and served US interests. An oligarchal regime emerged and now they're doing irredentist stuff, colour me shocked

The economists didnt try to create the oligarchs. That was all russias doing.

And trying to argue that extremely left wing economists like jeffrey sachs is neoliberal is just plain laughable. The guy is one of the last men left defending venzuela and china.

 

[Saint]

Apart from Putin withdrawing Russian forces how else could it have finished 2 years ago?

It would have taken Russia at least a decade for the ethnic cleansing.

 

[Saint]

Russian Govt and apologists:

"We (Russian Govt officials) took the offer to privatise Russia's state Gas which had the biggest bribe attached from Russians and it's all America's fault"

 

[Zidane98]

Russian Govt and apologists:

"We (Russian Govt officials) took the offer to privatise Russia's state Gas which had the biggest bribe attached from Russians and it's all America's fault"

Roman Abramovich likes this post.

 

[Saint]

Roman Abramovich likes this post.

Roman was also tricked by US economists into becoming a multi-billionaire by stealing from the Russian Government in partnership with Putin and Yeltsin.

 

[Nothing]

Roman was also tricked by US economists into becoming a multi-billionaire by stealing from the Russian Government in partnership with Putin and Yeltsin.

I wish those US economists would play that trick on me.

 

[barreness]

No they want.

even now the human global population is likely to have peaked, a better use of resources is all we need.

At 2 billion maybe, but for another thread

 

[barreness]

of course you do, you are trying to creative a narrative that's just wrong.

I remember when the US hit a medical facility in Afghanistan(edit - not Iraq), the soliders got in trouble. Russian soliders get congratulated

Did they get a telling off? Where has Russia congratulated soldiers for killing civilians?

I get it, you want to be an edge lord going against the narrative, but you are wrong.

Sure man, predicting this war will end in a negotiation and land ceding is right on the edge, bloodthirsty orc slayers that will never appease are the sane ones

 

[barreness]

This is the one of the weakest ways of trying to blame Russia's problems, caused and perpetuated by Russians, on the USA. Russia created its own problems and made its own decisions. It's delusional to think anyone forced it to do anything, let alone a bunch of economists.

Yeah, and Putin was just a mid-level officer twiddling his thumbs and accidentally murdered his way to the top. Again, a complete fantasy.

I didn't say he twiddled his thumbs, he was a mid level KGB officer at the fall of the soviet union. The way he got to the top is pretty self explanatory. I doubt another Russian leader would be much different, we've all seen Medvedev spouting insanity on twitter

It just doesn't make any sense. It's blaming kleptocracy on the US, when Russia has shown for decades since that they intended kleptocracy all along.

Nah I'm blaming neoliberalist economists for the economic state a lot of the eastern block found/finds themselves in(Ukraine included). Russian foreign policy is mainly a response to the US, aka the global hegemon

 

[jatz14]

Apart from Putin withdrawing Russian forces how else could it have finished 2 years ago?

He keeps talking about Russia's ambit claims position on peace talks.

So, what he means is, Ukraine should have been forced to accept those terms, 2 years ago.

Makin them not ambit claims, but just their demands.


Like, I start a fight with you. Say I will stop fighting, if you give me your house and wife. So of course, the fighting doesn't stop.

Snipers from the cheap seats of course shouting that it's all your fault for not negotiating a cessation to the hostilities. If you just negotiated in good faith, ignoring that at no point do I budget from wanting your house and wife.


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[RonSon]

He keeps talking about Russia's ambit claims position on peace talks.

So, what he means is, Ukraine should have been forced to accept those terms, 2 years ago.

Makin them not ambit claims, but just their demands.


Like, I start a fight with you. Say I will stop fighting, if you give me your house and wife. So of course, the fighting doesn't stop.

Snipers from the cheap seats of course shouting that it's all your fault for not negotiating a cessation to the hostilities. If you just negotiated in good faith, ignoring that at no point do I budget from wanting your house and wife.


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Oh, I know. I just wanted to see them state it.

Ukraine should stop the fighting, innocent people are dying!

 

[barreness]

It is entirely relevant because Putin & his gang of Nazis are stuck in a cold war era mindset and honestly believe in a new "great Russian empire". Russia as a nation really needs to completely purge Putin/Lavrov & co and find a new, younger leadership that wants to be a part of Europe on a bilateral level.

This was tried and rejected by the west
https://web.archive.org/web/2017082...bff-9174-8cae673790cd/?utm_term=.1f1c32b03bc7

Very poorly.

There was no coup, this is a Russian falsehood.

There was a coup/revolution, whether you agree with them or not. A democratically elected leader was overthrown

In all of this not once have you ever actually what the people of Ukraine want. It's always about Russia. Newsflash - Ukraine isn't Russia, never will be Russia ever again.

It doesn't really matter what they want. ~20% of Ukraine is currently Russia so I guess not

And again, with the fighting to the last Ukrainian nonsense. Ukranians are fighting because they want to be rid of Nazi dictators like Putin for good.

And if they lose?

Not because they are being told to or provided limited support. In the case of the US, no support for the last 12 months until recently.

Ok sure, just the largest arms aid program in history

Of course nothing from yourself about Iran & North Korea fighting to the last Russian...

Are they dying? This doesn't make sense, apparently a NK sapper brigade(?) was sent, haven't seen any NK bodies show up yet

Ukraine hasn't been a vassal of Russia since 2012, will never be one again. That upsets fascist dictators like Putin.

We'll see right

Rubbish. Multiple treaties were signed with Russia, they've done deals with Russia to transit gas to Europe. They allowed Russia to sign a new lease on Sevastopol up until 2042 (now null & void thanks to your mate Putin being an invading Nazi)

You know they control Crimea yeh? I don't think the lease matters anymore

Peace in Europe is the goal of NATO. It is the opposite for Putin. NATO member nations have provided support on this basos

If peace was the goal they wouldn't have been messing with the former soviet states

Ah yes, he should be to blame because he wouldn't capitulate to Russia and become another Lukashenko.

That's how it works

Of course, and the backdrop was Putin believing (incorrectly) that Ukraine isn't a real nation and that it is effectively owed to Russia. Any attempts at Ukraine integrating itself into the European community were seen by Putin as one step further away from him subjugating Ukraine for the benefit of Russia.

Yeh, don't disagree

The cold hard facts are Ukraine not wanting to be a vassall of Russia is absolutely not a reason to attack or invade a state. Not since WW2 have we seen such a large invasion of what is a completely non hostile state. You should be ashamed of the invasion.

From a moral point I agree, that's not how the world works though

Very consistent, almost like you are reading from a script.

Projection once again, you do stay on point though

Yes, Australia has sovereignty. And quite a bit of power due to demand for its natural resources.

Yet we pay the US 400+billion for subs we'll most likely never get and agree to take their nuclear waste(just down the road from me). Let alone thousands of marines in the top end and the largest spy base in the southern hemisphere. We are a vassal state of the US and yet still retain some sovereignty, you agree this is possible?