Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Chief]

What should be done?

Russia should leave Ukraine.

 

[Green Hammer]

Russia should leave Ukraine.

Not happening. What should be done in that case?

 

[Chief]

Not happening.

So, all this is Russia's fault.

What should be done in that case?

Bombs and more bombs seems to be what they are running with.

 

[Green Hammer]

So, all this is Russia's fault.

Bombs and more bombs seems to be what they are running with.

But that will only lead to escalation and more ukrainians dying

 

[Chief]

But that will only lead to escalation and more ukrainians dying

Oh cool they should just let Russia kill just enough Ukrainians to subdue them and destroy their language and culture.

Totes.

 

[Saint]

But that will only lead to escalation and more ukrainians dying

Less bombs (i.e. Ukrainian submission) will lead to even more Ukrainians dying. Even agreeing on the current front-lines as the new borders will only see Russia invade again in a few years. So submission will not have any benefit whatsoever to Ukraine.

That's the reality for Ukraine. Fight and some will die, submit and many more will die some immediately, and many more in the future again.

So Ukraine agreeing to anything which involves Russian occupation (and murders and deportations) is definitely off the table.

This is why they're at war. Ukraine won't submit and Russia wants to steal their land.

If there was a compromise, it wouldn't have come to war. But Russia is unwilling to compromise on letting Ukraine have their own country. RIghtly, the world community is coming together to oppose the Russians being a-holes.

What do you propose Ukraine does? Just surrender and let Russia rape and murder Ukrainians and pretend their culture and peoples never existed?

 

[Green Hammer]

Less bombs (i.e. Ukrainian submission) will lead to even more Ukrainians dying. Even agreeing on the current front-lines as the new borders will only see Russia invade again in a few years. So submission will not have any benefit whatsoever to Ukraine.

That's the reality for Ukraine. Fight and some will die, submit and many more will die some immediately, and many more in the future again.

So Ukraine agreeing to anything which involves Russian occupation (and murders and deportations) is definitely off the table.

This is why they're at war. Ukraine won't submit and Russia wants to steal their land.

If there was a compromise, it wouldn't have come to war. But Russia is unwilling to compromise on letting Ukraine have their own country. RIghtly, the world community is coming together to oppose the Russians being a-holes.

What do you propose Ukraine does? Just surrender and let Russia rape and murder Ukrainians and pretend their culture and peoples never existed?

The compromise with minsk but ukraine didnt want to implement what they signed up to. I dont think ukraine is in a position now to dictate terms. How far should this go ?

 

[Mofra]

I dont think ukraine is in a position to dictate terms. How far should this go ?

The answer you seem to want is 'Ukraine should no longer defend itself and let Russia' soldiers rape, torture and murder as many people as they can en route to destroying Ukranian statehood'.

Unsurprisingly, many people oppose your view.

 

[Saint]

The compromise with minsk but ukraine didnt want to implement what they signed up to. I dont think ukraine is in a position now to dictate terms. How far should this go ?

So is/was Russia living up to Minsk agreement? Or is just Ukraine supposed to meet agreement requirements and Russia can do what it likes until Ukraine no longer exists, therefore no more problem?

 

[Zidane98]

The answer you seem to want is 'Ukraine should no longer defend itself and let Russia' soldiers rape, torture and murder as many people as they can en route to destroying Ukranian statehood'.

Unsurprisingly, many people oppose your view.

The only people who support that view are Russians / Russian trolls and / or vatniks.

 

[Zidane98]

So is/was Russia living up to Minsk agreement? Or is just Ukraine supposed to meet agreement requirements and Russia can do what it likes until Ukraine no longer exists, therefore no more problem?

Russia and the rebels razed Debaltseve to the ground days after Minsk 2 was signed. 100 + civilians killed.


The rebels even had the audacity to say "Minsk 2 doesn't apply to Debaltseve".


One thing is certain is that Russia never had any intentions of peace regarding Donbass / Ukraine from day 1 of their invasion nearly 9 years ago. Putin's sole intention was to use the area to undermine Ukraine economically and politically from day one. Putin wants Donbass to either be a miserable shithole permanently or under his control for Russia's economic gain.

 

[Green Hammer]

The answer you seem to want is 'Ukraine should no longer defend itself and let Russia' soldiers rape, torture and murder as many people as they can en route to destroying Ukranian statehood'.

Unsurprisingly, many people oppose your view.

Are you for letting this go all the way to a nuclear war?

 

[Green Hammer]

So is/was Russia living up to Minsk agreement? Or is just Ukraine supposed to meet agreement requirements and Russia can do what it likes until Ukraine no longer exists, therefore no more problem?

Yes. And Merkel and Hollande admitted that it was all a ruse to give ukraine more time to build up their forces

 

[Saint]

Yes. And Merkel and Hollande admitted that it was all a ruse to give ukraine more time to build up their forces

It's funny, I don't remember hearing Merkel and Hollande using the word "ruse".

It's almost as though you think the people of Ukraine don't exist, the way you post that it's everyone else's fault and that the people of Ukraine don't exist or have a right to exist.

 

[footyfan1978]

It's funny, I don't remember hearing Merkel and Hollande using the word "ruse".

It's almost as though you think the people of Ukraine don't exist, the way you post that it's everyone else's fault and that the people of Ukraine don't exist or have a right to exist.

It would appear he has never meet a Ukranian or been there so probably thinks it all a hoax and the place and people are not real.

 

[Green Hammer]

It's funny, I don't remember hearing Merkel and Hollande using the word "ruse".

It's almost as though you think the people of Ukraine don't exist, the way you post that it's everyone else's fault and that the people of Ukraine don't exist or have a right to exist.

Ruse means a false front, or a cover story used to disguise. That's exactly what they said

 

[Mofra]

Are you for letting this go all the way to a nuclear war?

No. Hence NATO have not taken direct action. Are you only going to ask questions, or perhaps answer a few?

Why are you so hell bent on supporting an attack by a dictatorship on an democratically elected government, then be so cool with the rape, murder and torture of their civilians?

If someone breaks into your home, I guess you'll just stand by and say 'well I guess this is yours now'.

 

[Saint]

No. Hence NATO have not taken direct action. Are you only going to ask questions, or perhaps answer a few?

Why are you so hell bent on supporting an attack by a dictatorship on an democratically elected government, then be so cool with the rape, murder and torture of their civilians?

If someone breaks into your home, I guess you'll just stand by and say 'well I guess this is yours now'.

He would make a deal whereby the invader keeps his wife and children until they're buried in the backyard and he agrees to live in the garage "to avoid further bloodshed".

 

[The Warlord]

I note that Chechen Al-Qaeda units who operated in Syria are now in the trenches at Bakhmut fighting the Russians.

I get the historical context given Putin put down the jihadist revolt in Chechnya in 99/00/01.

But it also puts the childish crap about this being a simple case of Good Guys who got invaded by Bad Guys to rest for anyone but the simplest peasant.

 

[wannabejack]

I note that Chechen Al-Qaeda units who operated in Syria are now in the trenches at Bakhmut fighting the Russians.

I get the historical context given Putin put down the jihadist revolt in Chechnya in 99/00/01.

But it also puts the childish crap about this being a simple case of Good Guys who got invaded by Bad Guys to rest for anyone but the simplest peasant.

I suggest you watch this "childish crap"!
Easy to work out who the real Bad Guys are.

 

[The Warlord]

I suggest you watch this "childish crap"!
Easy to work out who the real Bad Guys are.

Anyone fighting alongside Al Qaeda are Bad Guys.

Lugenpresse propaganda doesn't work on me btw.

Reality is Ukraine is bragging about their Al Qaeda allies

I understand that a peasant society like Ukraine doesn't do subtlety when engaged in internecine ethnic conflict with their neighbours as they are now.

But I'm frigged if I want my tax dollars spent arming jihadists or anyone who'll ally with them.

My enemy's enemy is children's thinking.

 

[wannabejack]

Anyone fighting alongside Al Qaeda are Bad Guys.

Lugenpresse propaganda doesn't work on me btw.

Reality is Ukraine is bragging about their Al Qaeda allies

I understand that a peasant society like Ukraine doesn't do subtlety when engaged in internecine ethnic conflict with their neighbours as they are now.

But I'm frigged if I want my tax dollars spent arming jihadists or anyone who'll ally with them.

My enemy's enemy is children's thinking.

They are Chechen not Al Qaeda.

Chechen Separatist Fighters Defend Ukraine Against 'Common Enemy' Russia

Most of the members of Ukraine's OBON special-purpose battalion fought against Moscow in the first and second Chechen wars. For the Chechen separatist fighters who took part in the liberation of Kherson, Vladimir Putin is the "enemy of the civilized world."

www.rferl.org

 

[The Warlord]

They are Chechen not Al Qaeda.

Chechen Separatist Fighters Defend Ukraine Against 'Common Enemy' Russia

Most of the members of Ukraine's OBON special-purpose battalion fought against Moscow in the first and second Chechen wars. For the Chechen separatist fighters who took part in the liberation of Kherson, Vladimir Putin is the "enemy of the civilized world."

www.rferl.org

They are Chechens who are Al Qaeda.

 

[wannabejack]

They are Chechens who are Al Qaeda.

A mate of yours?

 

[The Warlord]

A mate of yours?
View attachment 1584368

He's sitting next to me right now drinking cans and posting.

As I said, I understand why Chechen jihadis are taking this opportunity to kill Russians.

It's very much part of the BACKDROP TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE as per the thread.

What's interesting is those who support the people that killed plenty of Australians and destroyed the World Trade Centre as long as they're on "our" side now.