Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Green Hammer]

No. Hence NATO have not taken direct action. Are you only going to ask questions, or perhaps answer a few?

Why are you so hell bent on supporting an attack by a dictatorship on an democratically elected government, then be so cool with the rape, murder and torture of their civilians?

If someone breaks into your home, I guess you'll just stand by and say 'well I guess this is yours now'.

More bombs and weapons means escalation in the fighting which in turn means a step closer to nuclear war. What you are advocating for is pouring more petrol on someone's home that is already on fire

 

[The Warlord]

More bombs and weapons means escalation in the fighting which in turn means a step closer to nuclear war. What you are advocating for is pouring more petrol on someone's home that is already on fire

Because their home is thousands of kilometres away from the fighting and they can safely advocate escalation

 

[Green Hammer]

Because their home is thousands of kilometres away from the fighting and they can safely advocate escalation

The lady at 1.28.30 breaks it down to the question that really matters

 

[The Warlord]

The lady at 1.28.30 breaks it down to the question that really matters

I ain't watching all that.

 

[Green Hammer]

I ain't watching all that.

I gave you the time mark

 

[The Warlord]

I gave you the time mark

I know

 

[Chief]

He's sitting next to me right now drinking cans and posting.

As I said, I understand why Chechen jihadis are taking this opportunity to kill Russians.

It's very much part of the BACKDROP TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE as per the thread.

What's interesting is those who support the people that killed plenty of Australians and destroyed the World Trade Centre as long as they're on "our" side now.

I can understand that when your culture and life are under attack with a real chance that you will lose, you'll take all the help you can get.

 

[The Warlord]

I can understand that when your culture and life are under attack with a real chance that you will lose, you'll take all the help you can get.

Yes, I don't blame the Ukranians for a second for accepting any help they can get, especially now they're really under the pump.

But there have been Chechen jihadis there itching for a fight for years and years.

The moment is rapidly arriving though where Ukraine has to decide what happens after the war.

As I've always said, Russia will turn them into Big Idlib if required, and that's a horrific fate.

Ukraine is going to have to accept partition and most likely an existence as a Ukranian Free State similar to what Ireland had to accept in 1921.

Having a much larger genocidally aggressive neighbour like Ukraine and Ireland do is awful.

But they can't be beaten and becoming a failed state where jihadi or far right warlords roam like in Idlib is not a future for Ukranians.

 

[Mofra]

More bombs and weapons means escalation in the fighting which in turn means a step closer to nuclear war. What you are advocating for is pouring more petrol on someone's home that is already on fire

If you're going to make things up, why not ask for a unicorn.

I haven't advocated for NATO direct action, which would constitute escalation.

Your position is pretty daft if you have to outright lie to try and support it.

That, and the immoral pro-war, pro-torture stance you've made.

 

[Mofra]

Because their home is thousands of kilometres away from the fighting and they can safely advocate escalation

Because their home is thousands of kilometres away from the fighting and they can safely advocate escalation

Bullshit.
Escalation would be asking for NATO direct involvement.

If the operation went well for Russia, they likely wouldn't have stopped at Ukraine. Moldova next, at a minimum.

The pro-war Russia hawks painting themselves as appeasers is an interesting take.
I guess Chamberlain's lessons have already been forgotten.

 

[Saint]

Yes, I don't blame the Ukranians for a second for accepting any help they can get, especially now they're really under the pump.

But there have been Chechen jihadis there itching for a fight for years and years.

The moment is rapidly arriving though where Ukraine has to decide what happens after the war.

As I've always said, Russia will turn them into Big Idlib if required, and that's a horrific fate.

Ukraine is going to have to accept partition and most likely an existence as a Ukranian Free State similar to what Ireland had to accept in 1921.

Having a much larger genocidally aggressive neighbour like Ukraine and Ireland do is awful.

But they can't be beaten and becoming a failed state where jihadi or far right warlords roam like in Idlib is not a future for Ukranians.

What complete and utter nonsense. Ukraine is a million miles from becoming a failed state or having far right warlords roaming the country. It seems people like yourself want us to be scared of both Christian Neo-Nazis being in charge of Ukraine as well as Crazy Islamic fundamentalists being in charge of Ukraine.

In reality, those two groups make up a miniscule part of the UAF.

As for that video. The lady asks "why does it matter who is at fault, apportioning blame won't solve the problem". That is the most base-level idiotic thinking I've heard. Of course it matters who is at fault. Because as they've proven time and time again, and the lesson of Chamberlain, is that if you know Russia is the aggressor, then you know that even if you sign another Minsk agreement and cede more land to Russia, they'll be back in months or years for more, having consolidated their gains. It ABSOLUTELY matters who started it, because they continue to be a threat even if you sign an agreement.

Let's make this really clear for you numbskulls up the back. Appeasing violent, kleptocratic, fascist, aggressive, invading Governments like Russia in this invasion will only result in more death and destruction as they start their next war.

EVERYONE in Eastern Europe knows and understands this about Russia. They don't want to cede parts of their country piece-by-piece to be enslaved, r*ped and tortured because it might cost more up-front. If they avoid the price of war now, they will pay 10-fold with their lives over decades living under the yoke of Russia.

 

[The Warlord]

Bullshit.
Escalation would be asking for NATO direct involvement.

If the operation went well for Russia, they likely wouldn't have stopped at Ukraine. Moldova next, at a minimum.

The pro-war Russia hawks painting themselves as appeasers is an interesting take.
I guess Chamberlain's lessons have already been forgotten.

Putin isn't Hitler, that line doesn't work on me.

The operation is going well for Russia now they're treating it like a war, not a militarised police action.

NATO is directly involved in arming Ukraine, providing intelligence, and plenty of troops.

Expanding a military alliance up to Russian borders was always leading to war.

 

[The Warlord]

What complete and utter nonsense. Ukraine is a million miles from becoming a failed state or having far right warlords roaming the country. It seems people like yourself want us to be scared of both Christian Neo-Nazis being in charge of Ukraine as well as Crazy Islamic fundamentalists being in charge of Ukraine.

In reality, those two groups make up a miniscule part of the UAF.

As for that video. The lady asks "why does it matter who is at fault, apportioning blame won't solve the problem". That is the most base-level idiotic thinking I've heard. Of course it matters who is at fault. Because as they've proven time and time again, and the lesson of Chamberlain, is that if you know Russia is the aggressor, then you know that even if you sign another Minsk agreement and cede more land to Russia, they'll be back in months or years for more, having consolidated their gains. It ABSOLUTELY matters who started it, because they continue to be a threat even if you sign an agreement.

Let's make this really clear for you numbskulls up the back. Appeasing violent, kleptocratic, fascist, aggressive, invading Governments like Russia in this invasion will only result in more death and destruction as they start their next war.

EVERYONE in Eastern Europe knows and understands this about Russia. They don't want to cede parts of their country piece-by-piece to be enslaved, r*ped and tortured because it might cost more up-front. If they avoid the price of war now, they will pay 10-fold with their lives over decades living under the yoke of Russia.

My apologies.

I thought this thread was for reasoned geopolitical discussion.

The other Ukraine thread has been ruined by violently aggressive Ukranian nationalists who bully anyone who disagrees with the ever more unpleasant worldview off the thread.

I see you're not capable of discussion without the sane aggressive abusive tone.

I was hoping this thread was better. The other one is a laughable joke where semi literate peasants who don't even know the names of senior AFU commanders are treated as oracles for posting some tweets.

 

[The Warlord]

Anyway, Soledar has fallen.

It stuns me that AFU has fallen in the meat grinder trap like this.

I've seen reports that Zaluzhny wanted a retreat but was overruled by Zelensky.

Russia has regained the initiative here, have no doubt.

The retreat from Kherson and creation of the Bakhmut meat grinder blunted the very likely possibility of AFU offensives in the south.

Ukranian desperation for more armour suggests they're in a really bad way.

The really big issue they have is time. Biden isn't going into an election campaign with the war around his neck imo.

 

[Roos9699]

Anyway, Soledar has fallen.

It stuns me that AFU has fallen in the meat grinder trap like this.

I've seen reports that Zaluzhny wanted a retreat but was overruled by Zelensky.

Russia has regained the initiative here, have no doubt.

The retreat from Kherson and creation of the Bakhmut meat grinder blunted the very likely possibility of AFU offensives in the south.

Ukranian desperation for more armour suggests they're in a really bad way.

The really big issue they have is time. Biden isn't going into an election campaign with the war around his neck imo.

Really? Fighting seems to be on going.

 

[Saint]

Anyway, Soledar has fallen.

It stuns me that AFU has fallen in the meat grinder trap like this.

I've seen reports that Zaluzhny wanted a retreat but was overruled by Zelensky.

Russia has regained the initiative here, have no doubt.

The retreat from Kherson and creation of the Bakhmut meat grinder blunted the very likely possibility of AFU offensives in the south.

Ukranian desperation for more armour suggests they're in a really bad way.

The really big issue they have is time. Biden isn't going into an election campaign with the war around his neck imo.

I have the reverse opinion about the war. I think both Presidential candidates will go to the election with pro-Ukrainian platforms. Trump would lie about it (he'll withdraw if he won Presidency) and De Santis will want to prove he's an international statesman (and different to Trump).

Comparing Ukraine to Idlib is not "reasoned geopolitical discussion". Nor is stating that Ireland has a genocidally aggressive neighbour.

The Government of Ukraine has, and continues to, function as a democracy. Unlike Syria. Your inclusion of Ireland in this is about 100 years too late for comparison.

 

[Mofra]

The big issue they have is time. Biden isn't going into an election campaign with the war around his neck imo.

Putin's health is a far bigger ticking clock than the US election cycle.

 

[Mofra]

Putin isn't Hitler, that line doesn't work on me.

His speech from July 2021, and Georgia, and Chechnya, suggest the comparison is valid enough.

 

[The Warlord]

Really? Fighting seems to be on going.

Wagner are in the salt mines, it's over.

Please don't post Nazi sympathiser propaganda like Pomorenko at me again.

I'm aware of his existence and have blocked/muted him accordingly.

 

[The Warlord]

Putin's health is a far bigger ticking clock than the US election cycle.

He's been dying of cancer in six months for about 10 years.

This stuff is just standard propaganda, all sides do it.

 

[The Warlord]

His speech from July 2021, and Georgia, and Chechnya, suggest the comparison is valid enough.

No, they don't, and it's a lazy characterisation always made by the West about the bad guy du nos jours.

Saddam was Hitler. Gaddafi was Hitler etc etc.

Imo the far better comparison for Putin is Assad.

Both are wily brutal survivors who have far more support at home than the West wants to believe.

But both have/are surviving by relying on warlords and mercenaries, which is a very dangerous game to play.

Assad lives and dies at the whim of Nasrallah and other local Alawite warlords.

Putin has created a monster in Wagner and Prigozhin.

He's entirely in their debt now.

 

[Blue1980]

Not happening. What should be done in that case?

Keep doing what is currently being done until they are defeated.

 

[Blue1980]

Oh cool they should just let Russia kill just enough Ukrainians to subdue them and destroy their language and culture.

Totes.

I agree, peace in our time.

 

[Blue1980]

He would make a deal whereby the invader keeps his wife and children until they're buried in the backyard and he agrees to live in the garage "to avoid further bloodshed".

Sensible, the invader might have a nuke so better surrender.

 

[Blue1980]

More bombs and weapons means escalation in the fighting which in turn means a step closer to nuclear war. What you are advocating for is pouring more petrol on someone's home that is already on fire

Any country which has nukes - give them everything they want.

I can’t see how that strategy could possibly go wrong.

I guess bullies at school would of loved you, asked for lunch money, you gave them your clothes as well to avoid further trouble.