Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

As you have no links to evidential basis for each claim I'll assume what you're presenting are just your own thoughts? Fair enough, no law against surmising.

Assuming this, what do you think is the intended purpose for the other 78% of the Ukrainian military? You know, the female population ... are they mayhap to be delivered to Bohemian Grove?

...sorry...i'm not into identity politicas...but yes...female soldiers are also being offered up as cannon fodder.

 

[IlovethePies]

List is a little out of date now, some links might have changed or been replaced.

Independent Russian News Source Channels (on the RF hate list):
Meduza/mediazone - [Telegram] [website] [Facebook]
BBC Russia - [Telegram] [Website]
Novaya Gazeta - [Telegram] [website] [Facebook] [Youtube]
Astra - [Telegram]
Kommersant - [website]
The Insider - [website]
TV Rain/Dozhd - they had Youtube but I unsubbed because no subtitles
Radio Ekho - [Youtube]

Russian News Source Channels (careful with what they say):
Sibirmedia - [Telegram]
Tayga.info - [Telegram] [website]

Ukrainian repost channels (very pro-Ukraine):
Ukraine In Shock - [Telegram]
Trukha Ukraina - [Telegram]
No War In Ukraine - [Telegram]

Local Ukrainian regional channels:
Kherson Huiviy - [Telegram]
Svatove City - [Telegram]
Severodonetsk News - [Telegram]
Luhansk OBA - [Telegram]
Servant Of The People - [Telegram]

Youtubers:
Denis Davydov - [Telegram] [Youtube]
Operator Starsky - [Youtube]
Butusov Plus - [Youtube]
Terra Ops UA - [Youtube]

Maps of Frontline Movements:
DeepState UA - [Telegram] (pro-Ukraine but keen on accuracy)

Russian repost channels:
Baza - [Telegram]
The Bugle - []Telegram]

Additional Russian channels of interest:
SOTA Project - [Telegram]
DOTA (Russian Uni Community) - [Telegram]

Political incarcerations in Russia:
OVD-Info - [Telegram] [website]
Freedom For Sasha Skochilenko - [Telegram] (covers other political prisoners from the war as well)

Huh.... every one of these sources is pro-Zelensky, pro-US.

 

[IlovethePies]

Whereas you get yours from a crack pipe.

Explain, dear Eagleman, what you disagree with, rather than abusing me.

 

[Mobbs]

Oh plus a friend from central Ukraine now in Moldova, two friends from Sumy still in Sumy, and various buddies in Russia in places including Tambov, SPb, Perm, Kras, rural Altay, plus one Ukrainian contact now in China and a Kazakh in Kostanay. And one pro-Russian Donbas-born Ukrainian now in Georgia.

 

[Mobbs]

Huh.... every one of these sources is pro-Zelensky, pro-US.

Even Sibirmedia & Taiga? lol

 

[Visions]

Nice fantasy, did you get from Russian press or the global times?

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Reckon Scott Ritter has to be in there somewhere......

 

[IlovethePies]

Oh plus a friend from central Ukraine now in Moldova, two friends from Sumy still in Sumy, and various buddies in Russia in places including Tambov, SPb, Perm, Kras, rural Altay, plus one Ukrainian contact now in China and a Kazakh in Kostanay. And one pro-Russian Donbas-born Ukrainian now in Georgia.

So, you are going to base your assessment of a global, historic conflict on the basis of the opinions of various friends from Eastern Europe and in Russia.
OK.
I will base mine on a scientific appraisal.

 

[EagleMan87]

Explain, dear Eagleman, what you disagree with, rather than abusing me.

Why bother? You actually think that the invading country, Russia, is the victim of the vast geopolitical machinations of the West.

You conveniently leave out any proof, and complain that anyone disagreeing is brainwashed by the MSM.

We've heard it all before, and it's boring.

 

[Mobbs]

Explain, dear Eagleman, what you disagree with, rather than abusing me.

Gimme sec.

Zelensky is a stooge of US and NATO imperialism who is offering up the male population of Ukraine as cannon fodder for the geopolitical interests of US and European imperialism.

Refuted with Hitchens's Razor.

In doing so, he and a layer of Ukrainian financial oligarchs are making millions and living in the lap of luxury.

Refuted with Hitchens's Razor.

Extreme right wing Ukrainian nationalists/fascists are supporting Zelensky.

Refuted with Hitchens's Razor.

The war in Ukraine is a proxy war of US/NATO against Russia.

Refuted with Hitchens's Razor.

The aim is: the overthrow of Putin (most likely by elements within Russia who oppose Putin and see their future in collaboration with US and NATO governments).

Refuted with Hitchens's Razor.

Dismembering Russia into impotent statelets, which can be easily plundered for markets, raw materials and cheap labour by US/European corporations.

Refuted with Hitchens's Razor.

 

[IlovethePies]

Why bother? You actually think that the invading country, Russia, is the victim of the vast geopolitical machinations of the West.

You conveniently leave out any proof, and complain that anyone disagreeing is brainwashed by the MSM.

We've heard it all before, and it's boring.

Only boring because it is outside your framework.
You'd rather just hear opinions that reinfornce your framework.
OK, i can understand that.
Sometimes it is difficult to break out of one's limitations.

 

[Mobbs]

I will base mine on a scientific appraisal.

Let's go

 

[RonSon]

Zelensky is a stooge of US and NATO imperialism who is offering up the male population of Ukraine as cannon fodder for the geopolitical interests of US and European imperialism.

In doing so, he and a layer of Ukrainian financial oligarchs are making millions and living in the lap of luxury.

Extreme right wing Ukrainian nationalists/fascists are supporting Zelensky.

The war in Ukraine is a proxy war of US/NATO against Russia.

The aim is: the overthrow of Putin (most likely by elements within Russia who oppose Putin and see their future in collaboration with US and NATO governments).

Dismembering Russia into impotent statelets, which can be easily plundered for markets, raw materials and cheap labour by US/European corporations.

Why did Putin attack Ukraine if this is a giant NATO plot to overthrow him?

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Stop lying. Russian language is NOT banned in the public sphere.

No, the Russian language was not banned from Ukraine

Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov recently doubled down on an inaccurate statement he’s made before: that Ukraine ba

www.politifact.com

The official language is Ukranian. The actual law says government officials can communicate in any language if it suits both parties.

Incredible you are repeating blatant Russian lies this far into the war. Just like your lies about Ukranian nationalism it's obvious what sort of poster you are.

I haven't got too many posters on ignore - maybe a couple of Richmond imposters on that board who are especially grating - but I put her on ignore some time back and it makes this thread far more readable. She's just a shit stirring contrarian constantly trying to derail the sharing of incoming information. Life's too short to put myself through any more of her bollocks - let me know if there's ever anything even remotely of interest.

 

[Chief]

I just like the flame-thrower drones.

 

[IlovethePies]

Why did Putin attack Ukraine if this is a giant NATO plot to overthrow him?

Great question.
In 2014, in the Maidan coup, fascist political tendencies (funded and supported by the CIA and Germany) overthrew an elected government.
This was actually the date when the war between Russia and Ukraine began.
The pro-NATO government installed after the coup immediately banned the Russian language in certain regions, and threatened the Russian population in Ukraine.
This led quickly to a civil war in the Donbass, with the Ukrainian army bombarding regiions in East Ukraine, which Russia then intervened to defend.
The aim of the pro-NATO government in Ukraine was to enter NATO, and thereby place NATO forces on the border of Russia.
Putin had made clear on multiple occasions that his government would regard the integration of Ukraine into NATO as a red line that it could not accept.
Once Zelensky was elected, he systematically moved towards integrating Ukraine into NATO.
He was acting on the instructions of the US government, which since 2014 has been preparing for war against Russia and the overthrow of Putin.
This crossed Putin's line, hence he invaded - hoping in this way to establish a deal where Ukraine would not join NATO.
When the Zelensky regime refused to negotiate (under instructions from Biden), Russia invaded.
This completely fell into the trap of the US, which since then has continued to arm Ukraine and escalate provocations, with the aim of exhausting Russia, and overthrowing the Putin regime.

The narrative of the “unprovoked war” in Ukraine falls apart

The declaration by NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg that the Ukraine war began in 2014 completely contradicts the narrative repeated endlessly by the White House and US media.

www.wsws.org

Mod Edit: wsws.org

World Socialist Web Site - Bias and Credibility

LEFT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Overall, we rate the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) as strongly Left Biased based on promoting anti-capitalist, socialist viewpoints. We also rate them as Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to the use of some sources that promote conspiracy theories.

 

[Visions]

How do you know that your assumptions are not fantasy? Did you get them from "the Age", or the ABC, or US press...?

Complains that pro western sources are unreliable.

Great question.
In 2014, in the Maidan coup, fascist political tendencies (funded and supported by the CIA and Germany) overthrew an elected government.
This was actually the date when the war between Russia and Ukraine began.
The pro-NATO government installed after the coup immediately banned the Russian language in certain regions, and threatened the Russian population in Ukraine.
This led quickly to a civil war in the Donbass, with the Ukrainian army bombarding regiions in East Ukraine, which Russia then intervened to defend.
The aim of the pro-NATO government in Ukraine was to enter NATO, and thereby place NATO forces on the border of Russia.
Putin had made clear on multiple occasions that his government would regard the integration of Ukraine into NATO as a red line that it could not accept.
Once Zelensky was elected, he systematically moved towards integrating Ukraine into NATO.
He was acting on the instructions of the US government, which since 2014 has been preparing for war against Russia and the overthrow of Putin.
This crossed Putin's line, hence he invaded - hoping in this way to establish a deal where Ukraine would not join NATO.
When the Zelensky regime refused to negotiate (under instructions from Biden), Russia invaded.
This completely fell into the trap of the US, which since then has continued to arm Ukraine and escalate provocations, with the aim of exhausting Russia, and overthrowing the Putin regime.

http://[URL='https://www.wsws.org/e...rticles/2023/05/11/gfgh-m11.html[/URL[/COLOR]

]

Then proceeds to tell everyone that an anti US capitalism source is the truth that we must believe in.....

 

[EagleMan87]

Great question.
In 2014, in the Maidan coup, fascist political tendencies (funded and supported by the CIA and Germany) overthrew an elected government.

Proof?

This was actually the date when the war between Russia and Ukraine began.
The pro-NATO government installed after the coup immediately banned the Russian language in certain regions, and threatened the Russian population in Ukraine.

Lies.

No, the Russian language was not banned from Ukraine

Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov recently doubled down on an inaccurate statement he’s made before: that Ukraine ba

www.politifact.com

This led quickly to a civil war in the Donbass, with the Ukrainian army bombarding regiions in East Ukraine, which Russia then intervened to defend.

Ah, just like they intervened in a 'civil war' in Georgia, which just so happened to lead to an increase in Russian territory.

The aim of the pro-NATO government in Ukraine was to enter NATO, and thereby place NATO forces on the border of Russia.
Putin had made clear on multiple occasions that his government would regard the integration of Ukraine into NATO as a red line that it could not accept.
Once Zelensky was elected, he systematically moved towards integrating Ukraine into NATO.
He was acting on the instructions of the US government, which since 2014 has been preparing for war against Russia and the overthrow of Putin.
This crossed Putin's line, hence he invaded - hoping in this way to establish a deal where Ukraine would not join NATO.

And why would Putin not want Ukraine joining a defensive alliance, hmm? I wonder!

When the Zelensky regime refused to negotiate (under instructions from Biden), Russia invaded.

After Russia had violated Ukraine's sovereignty already in Crimea, and sent their little green men into Donbas and Luhansk. And also after Russia had violated their previous treaties with Ukraine.

This completely fell into the trap of the US, which since then has continued to arm Ukraine and escalate provocations, with the aim of exhausting Russia, and overthrowing the Putin regime.

Those darn, nefarious Americans! Making Putin do all of that...SMH

 

[Visions]

Those darn, nefarious Americans! Making Putin do all of that...SMH

Yet despite wanting Putin to be overthrown, the US hampers Ukraine from actually fighting the war by restricting attacks on Russian military infrastructure with missiles when Russian missiles with US installed parts still rain on Ukrainian civilian structures.

 

[Chief]

fratricidal war

Who are the frats in this thing?

 

[IlovethePies]

An article for those open minded enough to for a moment consider that US propaganda might need verification:

The narrative of the “unprovoked war” in Ukraine falls apart

The declaration by NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg that the Ukraine war began in 2014 completely contradicts the narrative repeated endlessly by the White House and US media.

www.wsws.org

Mod Edit: wsws.org

World Socialist Web Site - Bias and Credibility

LEFT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Overall, we rate the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) as strongly Left Biased based on promoting anti-capitalist, socialist viewpoints. We also rate them as Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to the use of some sources that promote conspiracy theories.

 

[IlovethePies]

Who are the frats in this thing?

Russian and Ukrainian workers.
The history of Russia and Ukraine is totally intermeshed.
The Ukrainian and Russian workers and youth are brothers, who are being sent to die in a war for profits.
Zelensky and Putin are leaders of criminal regimes which defend the profit interests of a Ukrainian and Russian capitalist oligarchy respectively.

 

[Chief]

Russian and Ukrainian workers.
The history of Russia and Ukraine is totally intermeshed.
The Ukrainian and Russian workers and youth are brothers, who are being sent to die in a war for profits.
Zelensky and Putin are leaders of criminal regimes which defend the profit interests of a Ukrainian and Russian capitalist oligarchy respectively.

So, when the Irish fought against the English, was that fratricidal? What about the English and the French?

 

[IlovethePies]

So, when the Irish fought against the English, was that fratricidal? What about the English and the French

The english and the french conflct was the Middle Ages. not relevant to now.
In fact, at the time of the Norman invasion of Britain, neither the concept of France nor Britain as nation states existed.

The problem with your analysis is that you are viewing things in terms of nationality, rather than class.
When the Irish fought the British, it was a question of an oppressed nation (Ireland), opposed to the domination of British colonialism.

Fast forward to 2024. Both Putin and Zelensky are representatives of capitalist regimes which exist only to defend the profit interests of major sections of the wealthy elite.

The youth forced into the army, always drawn from the impoverished, vulnerable layers of society, are the cannon fodder for the interests of these elites.

The youth are indoctrinated with nationalist, racist venom in order to motivate them to kill their brothers.

 

[jatz14]

Zelensky is a stooge of US and NATO imperialism who is offering up the male population of Ukraine as cannon fodder for the geopolitical interests of US and European imperialism.

In doing so, he and a layer of Ukrainian financial oligarchs are making millions and living in the lap of luxury.

Extreme right wing Ukrainian nationalists/fascists are supporting Zelensky.

The war in Ukraine is a proxy war of US/NATO against Russia.

The aim is: the overthrow of Putin (most likely by elements within Russia who oppose Putin and see their future in collaboration with US and NATO governments).

Dismembering Russia into impotent statelets, which can be easily plundered for markets, raw materials and cheap labour by US/European corporations.

Settle down Vlad, we know your upset.

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[jatz14]

...sorry...i'm not into identity politicas...but yes...female soldiers are also being offered up as cannon fodder.

Who's cannon would that be?

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