Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

Settle down Vlad, we know your upset.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

The fact that you randomly are posting to tell me to settle down tells me that you are the one who needs to.

 

[IlovethePies]

If this means the US gets to nuke them back, then it has its upside.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

You are quite unhinged.

 

[jatz14]

Nothing serious to debate with you Chief if you are capable of calling Russian conscripts dragooned into a fratricidal war by the Putin government as "orcs".
You have made your bigotry quite clear.
How many dead on both sides??
Both Putin and Zelensky are criminals.
The cannon fodder is both the Ukrainian AND the Russian workers and youth.

Except one is guilty of starting this war, and one is guilty of not letting the guy that started the war, win it.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[IlovethePies]

Except one is guilty of starting this war, and one is guilty of not letting the guy that started the war, win it.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

See above. You need to find equilibrium.

 

[jatz14]

You are quite unhinged.

You seemed to be one of that cardre that gets excited that Putin might use Nukes, entirely Ukraine's fault of course, how dare they not be over run already.

I was just trying to join the mood, see some more positives in it.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Chief]

The problem with your analysis

It's not an analysis.

Just trying to work out how you're using this term.

 

[Chief]

The aim of the pro-NATO government in Ukraine was to enter NATO, and thereby place NATO forces on the border of Russia.

Russia already had NATO countries on its borders.

It has more now.

Why didn't Putin invade those?

 

[Chief]

When the Irish fought the British, it was a question of an oppressed nation (Ireland), opposed to the domination of British colonialism.

Fair enough.

Fast forward to 2024. Both Putin and Zelensky are representatives of capitalist regimes which exist only to defend the profit interests of major sections of the wealthy elite.

The youth forced into the army, always drawn from the impoverished, vulnerable layers of society,

True. The war deaths/100,000 people in Moscow are 5% of those in other areas.

Ukrainian war deaths seem pretty evenly spread, though. What with the bombing of civilian houses and the rapes and murders and all that.

are the cannon fodder for the interests of these elites.

The youth are indoctrinated with nationalist, racist venom in order to motivate them to kill their brothers.

So when Russia rolls tanks in, the Ukrainians should... what should they have done?

 

[IlovethePies]

Just trying to work out how you're using this term.

Ok, sorry if my language is not clear.
The problem with how you are viewing things is that you see everything from a nationalist standpoint.
But nations and different nationalities, do not reflect reality.
there is a global economy, in which workers of all nationalites are linked together in a production process.
Their social interests are completely opposed to those of the wealthy ruling elite. The wealthy elite uses the nation state apparatus (parliament, intelligence agencies, etc) to protect its interests. They also deliberately incite divisions in the working class through racism and xenophobia. (Divide and rule)
The working class is an international class, unified by the methods of transnational production and by social media.
Its interests (right to decent wages, education, health care, housing ) are the same throughout the world.
If the working class united internationally against all the governments that seek to divide them, then we could transform the world.

 

[IlovethePies]

Fair enough.



True. The war deaths/100,000 people in Moscow are 5% of those in other areas.

Ukrainian war deaths seem pretty evenly spread, though. What with the bombing of civilian houses and the rapes and murders and all that.


So when Russia rolls tanks in, the Ukrainians should... what should they have done?

It is Ukraine who is rollling tanks into Russia at the moment...German ones... the first time since WW2

 

[Chief]

Mind you, Russian economy is already ****ed. The war is keeping it looking alive.

Massively inefficient and propped up by oil and gas sales.

Oligarchs exporting money instead of reinvesting it.

Russia has been a wreck for a long time.

Now draining their regions of people in their prime earning years.

Utter disaster of a place.

 

[Chief]

It is Ukraine who is rollling tanks into Russia at the moment...German ones... the first time since WW2

Yes but the tanks wouldn't be there without the Russian tanks having rolled in a couple of years ago.

At THAT time, what should the Ukrainians have done?

 

[Chief]

German ones... the first time since WW2

Also, is that a Nazi reference?

 

[IlovethePies]

Also, is that a Nazi reference?

If you are accusing me of Nazi references, rich of you given your use of the term "orc"
but yes, stand accused.
We are witnessing German tanks rolling into Russia
And what do we draw from this?
If we have any sense of critical thought, we think:
so NATO/Ukraine is now going down the same path as Hitler, operation Barbarossa.
So maybe...just maybe...we should start to question the underlying political, geostrategic motivations of this war.
If we don't, we're just going to repeat the same inane US propaganda:
that Putin is an "evil monster" and Zelensky is a "democratic freedom fighter" (let's just ignore his fascist supporters!!)

 

[IlovethePies]

Eagleman laughs at my posts, but never explains why he does so
Maybe not Eagleman, rather Cuckooman

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes but the tanks wouldn't be there without the Russian tanks having rolled in a couple of years ago.

At THAT time, what should the Ukrainians have done?

Not a question what Ukraine should have done.
A question of what the workers in Ukraine and Russia need to do.
Unite.
Turn their guns against the real enemies: the Putin government in Russia, and the Zelensky government in Ukraine.

 

[Chief]

What did the Zelenskyy government do that would stop Ukrainian people from defending themselves?

 

[EagleMan87]

Proof?

Lies.

No, the Russian language was not banned from Ukraine

Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov recently doubled down on an inaccurate statement he’s made before: that Ukraine ba

www.politifact.com

Ah, just like they intervened in a 'civil war' in Georgia, which just so happened to lead to an increase in Russian territory.

And why would Putin not want Ukraine joining a defensive alliance, hmm? I wonder!

After Russia had violated Ukraine's sovereignty already in Crimea, and sent their little green men into Donbas and Luhansk. And also after Russia had violated their previous treaties with Ukraine.

Those darn, nefarious Americans! Making Putin do all of that...SMH

I replied to your post, ya goof.

Eagleman laughs at my posts, but never explains why he does so
Maybe not Eagleman, rather Cuckooman

 

[Chief]

so NATO/Ukraine is now going down the same path as Hitler, operation Barbarossa.

OK so it was a Nazi reference.

 

[IlovethePies]

OK so it was a Nazi reference.

Yes, it was a reference to the fact that imperialist tanks are now rolling into Russian territory, and this is the first time since Nazi tanks did so.

What do you mean by "Nazi reference" ?

My reference is to the historical record.

I am attempting to alert those who can be alerted that we are witnessing events resembling those that took place 83 years ago, and which led to the annihilation of 28 million Soviet citizens.

You tell me why the sight of Panzers once again rollng into Russia shouldn't "sound alarm bells"?

 

[IlovethePies]

I replied to your post, ya goof.

why did you laugh at the last one, cuckoo?

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Russia already had NATO countries on its borders.

It has more now.

Why didn't Putin invade those?

It's funny ... whenever this is brought up .... absolute crickets ...

 

[IlovethePies]

What did the Zelenskyy government do that would stop Ukrainian people from defending themselves?

huh??? ..the Zelensky government created the conditions where the Ukrainian people would be used as cannon fodder in the interests of Ukrainian capitalists and their US financial backers.

Far from defending the Ukrainain people, Zelensky has signed off on sacrificing them on the altar of profit - for Ukrainian and US/German capitalists

 

[EagleMan87]

why did you laugh at the last one, cuckoo?

Because you compared a Ukrainian counter-attack to Operation Barbarossa, idiot.

 

[IlovethePies]

Because you compared a Ukrainian counter-attack to Operation Barbarossa, idiot.

I compared the trajectory of events to that of Operation Barbarossa
For an Eagles supporter, it is interesting how you perceive everything in black or white.
Maybe think about becoming a Pies supporter, or at least wearing a black and white guernsey to reflect your style of thinking.