Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

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[IlovethePies]

^ The US, Britain and France are not armining Ukraine with their missiles to help "defend Ukraine". They are arming Zelensky's regime with long range weaponry to attack Russia and escalate the conflict

The war in Ukraine is a proxy war of US and European imperialism against Russia. The independence, freedom, well being of the Ukrainian people is utterly irrelevant to the geostrategic machinations of US and European capitalism.

Trump has just appointed Ret. Gen. Keith Kellogg, an ex-advisor to Mike Pence, as his special envoy on Ukraine. Here is what Kellog said to Congress in 2023 about the war in Ukraine: "Senator, I believe that if you can defeat a strategic adversary not using any US troops, then you're at the acme of professionalism. Because letting the Ukrainians do that takes a strategic adversary off the table, and then we can focus on our primary adversary, which is China at this time. "

It turns out after all that Trump might very well go back entirely on what were always his fake anti-war promises, and that he will continue Biden's policy of fighting a war against Russia with the Ukrainian army.

 

[IlovethePies]

Boris Johnson declares out loud in an interview: "We're waging a proxy war! We're waging a proxy war but we're not giving our proxies the ability to do the job." Johnson has let the cat out of the bag. Claims that the war in Ukraine is a proxy war of imperialism against Russia were once attributed to Russian propaganda.

Now we know for sure that it wasn't Russian propaganda...it was in fact the truth. From the horse's mouth.

 

[IlovethePies]

Latest "assistance" from the US to Ukraine:

US tells Ukraine to lower the conscription age to 18, so that the "manpower shortage" can be stemmed.
"Support" for Ukraine means demanding ever more rivers of Ukrainian bloodshed.

 

[wannabejack]

Boris Johnson declares out loud in an interview: "We're waging a proxy war! We're waging a proxy war but we're not giving our proxies the ability to do the job." Johnson has let the cat out of the bag. Claims that the war in Ukraine is a proxy war of imperialism against Russia were once attributed to Russian propaganda.

Now we know for sure that it wasn't Russian propaganda...it was in fact the truth. From the horse's mouth.

Boris Johnson said “Mate, let's face it... We're waging a proxy war!”
You’re the one adding the “of imperialism” bit in.
“An imperial war is a war fought to expand an empire”. russia is the only country involved in this war trying to “expand an empire”.

There would be no proxy war if russia didn’t invade Ukraine to expand the russian empire.

 

[IlovethePies]

Boris Johnson said “Mate, let's face it... We're waging a proxy war!”
You’re the one adding the “of imperialism” bit in.
“An imperial war is a war fought to expand an empire”. russia is the only country involved in this war trying to “expand an empire”.

There would be no proxy war if russia didn’t invade Ukraine to expand the russian empire.

Well, at least you're finally admitting that it is a proxy war. The truth makes its way slowly, but eventually it will come crashing through.

 

[IlovethePies]

This is why Ukranians are fighting for their future and despite all the odds stacked against it are able to repel fascists invaders.


Should Russia take over a similar fait awaits Ukraine where Russian language, culture will be forced upon the citizens of Ukraine. Anyone who isn't onboard with that will subject to the horrors of torture, rape, summary executions.

An advancing Russian empire is the biggest threat to peace & security since Hitler & Nazi Germany in WW2.

Never has a post contained more lies than this one.

Here is the truth:

a) Fascists exist in both the Russian and the Ukrainian armies, likewise in both the Russian and the Ukrainian governments.
b) Russia is not seeking to "advance an empire". Russia is seeking guarantees from NATO that Ukraine will not be used as a platform to undermine, destabilise, militarily attack Russia and overthrow the Putin regime.
c) The biggest threat to peace and security are the NATO powers, and primarily the US, which aim at nothing less than the dismemberment of Russia and the seizure and control of all its critical mineral wealth and other raw materials.
d) The only parallels with Hitler are those between the US government and its NATO allies. Their attempt to colonise Russia resembles that of Operation Barbarossa.
e) The Putin government is a dictatorial and criminal regime, but just as much so is that of Zelensky. Both the Putin and Zelensky regimes represent the interests of criminal capitalist oligarchs who profited out of the liquidation of the former Soviet Union. This war represents a struggle between these two bands of criminal oligarchs, with the US and NATO supporting the Ukrainian oligarchs with the aim of seizing the wealth of the Russian oligarchs who stand behind Putin.

 

[wannabejack]

Well, at least you're finally admitting that it is a proxy war. The truth makes its way slowly, but eventually it will come crashing through.

I’ve never said this war was not a proxy war.
The reason it has become a proxy war involving other countries supporting Ukraine is that without this support Ukraine would eventually become part of the new russian empire.
There was no proxy war until russia invaded!
“success in aiding Ukraine cannot be separated from Russia’s broader ambitions in dealing with Belarus, Moldovia, and NATO European states—especially those nearest Russia and Belarus.”

"Besides the recent arrival of at least 10,000 North Korean soldiers on the Russian side, the evolving roles of China, Japan, and South Korea raise the question of whether a widening proxy war is being fought in Ukraine. By all indications, the answer is yes: The war is setting a new precedent for Indo-Pacific nations to compete for their interests on the global stage."

 

[IlovethePies]

I’ve never said this war was not a proxy war.
The reason it has become a proxy war involving other countries supporting Ukraine is that without this support Ukraine would eventually become part of the new russian empire.
There was no proxy war until russia invaded!
“success in aiding Ukraine cannot be separated from Russia’s broader ambitions in dealing with Belarus, Moldovia, and NATO European states—especially those nearest Russia and Belarus.”

"Besides the recent arrival of at least 10,000 North Korean soldiers on the Russian side, the evolving roles of China, Japan, and South Korea raise the question of whether a widening proxy war is being fought in Ukraine. By all indications, the answer is yes: The war is setting a new precedent for Indo-Pacific nations to compete for their interests on the global stage."

Hang on....there was no proxy war anywhere until the master puppeteer launched the puppets. By definition a proxy war is a war that the nation behind the scenes wants to take place, but does not want to be the one carrying it out. Therefore it gets its proxies to do it.

 

[Chadwiko]

^ The US, Britain and France are not armining Ukraine with their missiles to help "defend Ukraine". They are arming Zelensky's regime with long range weaponry to attack Russia and escalate the conflict

Well first things first, they're not "long range". They're short/medium range when we're talking about 'missiles'.

Secondly; what do you think those missiles are targeting in Russia? They're targeting the bases and resources Russia is using to mount it's invasion on Ukraine!

The war in Ukraine is a proxy war of US and European imperialism against Russia.

This nonsense would be a lot more believable if it wasn't Russia who started the war by invading Ukraine.

 

[IlovethePies]

Well first things first, they're not "long range". They're short/medium range when we're talking about 'missiles'.

Secondly; what do you think those missiles are targeting in Russia? They're targeting the bases and resources Russia is using to mount it's invasion on Ukraine!




This nonsense would be a lot more believable if it wasn't Russia who started the war by invading Ukraine.

When you have realised that the reasons for a war cannot be reduced in an infantile manner as to who fired the first shot, get back to me.

Hint: This thread is about the backdrop of the war in Ukraine.

 

[Chadwiko]

When you have realised that the reasons for a war cannot be reduced in an infantile manner as to who fired the first shot, get back to me.

Hint: This thread is about the backdrop of the war in Ukraine.

I'm well versed in the backdrop for the war.

I'm equally well versed in the nonsense excuses and attempts at justification that pro-Russian vatniks like to roll out. And none of them hold water.

 

[Chief]

Now we know for sure that it wasn't Russian propaganda...it was in fact the truth. From the horse's mouth.

What position does he hold in government these days?

 

[Jamolad]

^ The US, Britain and France are not armining Ukraine with their missiles to help "defend Ukraine". They are arming Zelensky's regime with long range weaponry to attack Russia and escalate the conflict

They are allowing Ukraine to attack military stockpiles, logistics, staging grounds and infrastructure, weakening Russia's ability to attack Ukraine (a defensive act), and hastening the point at which realistic negotiations can take place by forcing Russia to the table with sensible demands (bringing forward a peaceful resolution and ending the senseless loss of life of the working class on both sides).

I'm all for it. Strangely you aren't?

 

[IlovethePies]

What position does he hold in government these days?

Did anyone in the British government call him out for admitting that it's a proxy war?

 

[jatz14]

Boris Johnson declares out loud in an interview: "We're waging a proxy war! We're waging a proxy war but we're not giving our proxies the ability to do the job." Johnson has let the cat out of the bag. Claims that the war in Ukraine is a proxy war of imperialism against Russia were once attributed to Russian propaganda.

Now we know for sure that it wasn't Russian propaganda...it was in fact the truth. From the horse's mouth.

They are waging a proxy war now. It's a proxy war that started when Russia invaded Ukraine. I mean, your so close.

And it's a proxy war being fought at this point, as an alternative to a real war.

That's why Europe is fighting a proxy war in Ukraine, because in the face of unchecked Russian aggression, the risk they end up fighting a real war if Russia is allowed to roll over Ukraine is too great.

So, which do you prefer?

A proxy war to stop Russian aggression, or a real one?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[wannabejack]

Hang on....there was no proxy war anywhere until the master puppeteer launched the puppets. By definition a proxy war is a war that the nation behind the scenes wants to take place, but does not want to be the one carrying it out. Therefore it gets its proxies to do it.

The problem with using the term proxy war is that there is some grey area in the definition.
From Wikipedia
In political science, a proxy war is an armed conflict where at least one of the belligerents is directed or supported by an external third-party power. In the term proxy war, a belligerent with external support is the proxy; both belligerents in a proxy war can be considered proxies if both are receiving foreign military aid from a third party country.

The one time I used the term proxy war was when I replied to your post.
Both “belligerents” are proxyies because both are receiving foreign military aid (support) from third party countries .
So the one time I’ve used the term proxy war I’ve used the support part of it.
Your comment that “the master puppeteer launched the puppets” denies the Ukrainians their ability to act for themselves and belittles their own right to self-defence.

 

[Chief]

Did anyone in the British government call him out for admitting that it's a proxy war?

Dunno, it's the first I've heard his quote.

I don't disagree that it's a proxy war, but if that proxy war in defence of an existing state then it's also worthwhile.

Dunno why Putin is ignoring all of the other NATO states on his border if that is his problem. That's never been adequately explained.

 

[Zidane98]

China is fighting democracy to the last Russian.

And for Black Friday 40% off specials on vatnik derived oil & gas.

 

[Jamolad]

Did anyone in the British government call him out for admitting that it's a proxy war?

You keep spelling "poxy" wrong.

poxy
/ˈpɒksi/
adjective informal•British
of poor quality; worthless.
"they've won one poxy trophy"

Or if you prefer slang: something rotten, lousy

Russia is waging a poxy war.

 

[Chadwiko]

Did anyone in the British government call him out for admitting that it's a proxy war?

Did anyone in the Russian government call out Putin for starting a pointless war?

And if so, were they standing near a window on the 18th floor of a building when they did it?

 

[GhostofJimJess]

They are allowing Ukraine to attack military stockpiles, logistics, staging grounds and infrastructure, weakening Russia's ability to attack Ukraine (a defensive act), and hastening the point at which realistic negotiations can take place by forcing Russia to the table with sensible demands (bringing forward a peaceful resolution and ending the senseless loss of life of the working class on both sides).

I'm all for it. Strangely you aren't?

I'm amazed by the fact that you have to point this out to these imbeciles.

 

[Zidane98]

Really incredible that anyone calls Ukraine firing cruise missiles at Russian military targets that are attacking Ukraine as a deliberate escalation because western states supplied them considering Putin regularly spends half a billion on individual missile attacks on civilian Ukranian targets - including missiles supplied by Iran & N Korea.

You have to be some special kind of Pro Russian vatnik argue as such.

 

[IlovethePies]

China is fighting democracy to the last Russian.

And for Black Friday 40% off specials on vatnik derived oil & gas.

Russia is not fighting democracy, it is fighting NATO, and if you think NATO cares about democracy then you are either born yesterday or lying.

It is true that Russia and China are aligning, because they face a common enemy: US and NATO imperialism. It is the policies of Washington above all, London, Bonn and Paris that are driving China and Russia together.

 

[Zidane98]

Russia is not fighting democracy, it is fighting NATO, and if you think NATO cares about democracy then you are either born yesterday or lying.

It is true that Russia and China are aligning, because they face a common enemy: US and NATO imperialism. It is the policies of Washington above all, London, Bonn and Paris that are driving China and Russia together.

China isnt aligning with Russia.

It's turning Russia into a larger version of North Korea.

China knows that Putin's imperialism is destined to fail. It is there to pick up the pieces. Take over from Russia in central Asia. Make Russia dependent on China for supplies. Take resources off Russia on the cheap. Return Vladivostok to Chinese rule or install a puppet government.

China values its trading relation with the west far greater. They are no friend of Russia.

 

[Zidane98]

Also let's stop with the NATO claims. Quite simply they are complete & utter bs. It's embarrassing: