Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

Blah blah blah

 

[Aussie in exile]

It is documented by Ukrainian news sources and pro-Ukrainian bloggers.
If i wanted to prove that Russian forces had committed no war crimes, I would quote /Russian bloggers and Russian news sources.

I have already explained that Putin's invasion was reactionary and criminal. When a war is criminal, it is inevitable that violent and horrific war crimes will be carried out.

But nothing in the role of the Russian army in Ukraine today resembles the barbarism and homicidal destruction carried out by the Wehrmacht in Operation Barbarossa.

Why do you still keep defending Putin and Russia of its illegal invasion of Ukraine.?

 

[Bloods86]

If i wanted to prove that Russian forces had committed no war crimes, I would quote /Russian bloggers and Russian news sources.

Yes we know you would quote (pro) Russian news sources and bloggers as evidence that Russia isn't doing bad things. That much is obvious.

You clearly get your news and analysis, either straight from the source (Russian state media), pro Russian/Putin sources or sources that are so far down the rabbit hole of "US/NATO always bad", that they'll downplay Russia's intent and actions to produce a level playing field of blame in this conflict, or as you do, pretend it wasn't Russia's fault, they just fell for it. A "Look what you made them do" ethnic cleansing.

 

[wannabejack]

...

But nothing in the role of the Russian army in Ukraine today resembles the barbarism and homicidal destruction carried out by the Wehrmacht in Operation Barbarossa.

It’s not as bad, so the barbarism and homicidal destruction in Ukraine is almost acceptable hey?

 

[Aussie in exile]

It’s not as bad, so the barbarism and homicidal destruction in Ukraine is almost acceptable hey?

He won't know how to answer that.

 

[Zidane98]

There were videos on Telegram ya plonker.

They were faked too comrade. Just like Russia never had a thing to do with murdering 298 civilians on MH17. It's all a ruse to frame peaceful Putin.

 

[Zidane98]

Blah blah blah

Surely even you know the only reliable sources of news are WSWS, tass.ru, rt.com, ria Novosti, The Grayzone (TM) etc etc.

 

[Chief]

Surely even you know the only reliable sources of news are WSWS, tass.ru, rt.com, ria Novosti, The Grayzone (TM) etc etc.

And Tim Pool.

 

[Bloods86]

And Tim Pool.

Glenn Greenwald, Jimmy Dore, Second Thought etc etc

 

[IlovethePies]

Surely even you know the only reliable sources of news are WSWS, tass.ru, rt.com, ria Novosti, The Grayzone (TM) etc etc.

You were right about wsws. The only absolutely reliable news source in the world, due to its political program.

However, rt.com is about as reliable as Kyiv Independent, Ukrinform and that Ukrainian Twitter account you or one of your like minded posters linked here.

Grayzone is certainly more independent than any of the news sources you have ever referred to here.

As for Novosti, I would rate it on a par with Kyev Independent and Ukrinform, along with tass.ru, rt.com.

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes we know you would quote (pro) Russian news sources and bloggers as evidence that Russia isn't doing bad things. That much is obvious.

You clearly get your news and analysis, either straight from the source (Russian state media), pro Russian/Putin sources or sources that are so far down the rabbit hole of "US/NATO always bad", that they'll downplay Russia's intent and actions to produce a level playing field of blame in this conflict, or as you do, pretend it wasn't Russia's fault, they just fell for it. A "Look what you made them do" ethnic cleansing.

The problem with your post is that it is completely false.

 

[IlovethePies]

It’s not as bad, so the barbarism and homicidal destruction in Ukraine is almost acceptable hey?

...and that is as usual another false argument, which abound like flies around the carcass of a dead horse on this thread- the one that the posters here have flogged to death.

The posters here just cannot get their head around a very simple concept: that explanation of events does not imply any agreement with or justification for these events.

I have always backed up my arguments with an explanation of how reactionary and how right wing Putin's invasion of Ukraine was. It played into the hands of US/NATO.

To explain that Putin's invasion is not the same type of historical phenonomen as the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union simply does NOT imply that I think that Putin's invasion is ok.

 

[IlovethePies]

They were faked too comrade. Just like Russia never had a thing to do with murdering 298 civilians on MH17. It's all a ruse to frame peaceful Putin.

Wrong, they were posted by Ukrainian users.
Telegram is used widely by Ukrainian citizens, government and military, until yesterday, when Ukraine banned government and military officials from using it.
However, civilian pro-Ukrainian propagandists will be free to continue, and they no doubt are the ones you will continue to use to buttress your arguments.

 

[Mobbs]

Wrong, they were posted by Ukrainian users.
Telegram is used widely by Ukrainian citizens, government and military, until yesterday, when Ukraine banned government and military officials from using it.
However, civilian pro-Ukrainian propagandists will be free to continue.

They re-asserted an existing rule preventing social apps being added to military use mobile phones.
Where did you hear/read it being worded the way you did?

 

[IlovethePies]

They re-asserted an existing rule preventing social apps being added to military use mobile phones.
Where did you hear/read it being worded the way you did?

Ukraine bans officials from using Telegram on state-issued devices

Decision comes after evidence was shared showing Russia’s ability to access Telegram messages and personal data.

www.aljazeera.com

And in case you believe al jazeera is one of those "fake news websites", here is another:

https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/ukraine-bans-official-use-telegram-app-over-fears-russian-spying-2024-09-20/

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes we know you would quote (pro) Russian news sources and bloggers as evidence that Russia isn't doing bad things. That much is obvious.

You clearly get your news and analysis, either straight from the source (Russian state media), pro Russian/Putin sources or sources that are so far down the rabbit hole of "US/NATO always bad", that they'll downplay Russia's intent and actions to produce a level playing field of blame in this conflict, or as you do, pretend it wasn't Russia's fault, they just fell for it. A "Look what you made them do" ethnic cleansing.

I made a very flippant reply to your post above, and now I regret it.
Your claims that I get information from Russian state media and/or pro Russian/Putin sources are indeed completely false.

So is your claim that I am trying to "pretend that it wasn't Russia's fault", but I should try to respond to this more seriously.

It was indeed Putin's fault that he responded to NATO provocations by invading Ukraine. However, as a representative of the Russian capitalist class, it was the only move he had.

If he simply allowed the ongoing provocations to continue, and the integration of Ukraine into NATO, this would have resulted in NATO using Ukraine as a platform for ongoing destablilisation and military incursions into Russia.

This is the fate of every pro-capitalist regime which is the target of US imperialism. It has no way out, other than to seek a deal (as Putin did by invading Ukraine and hoping that the US would come to the negotiating table), or else to totally capitualte and allow itself to be removed and replaced by a government of the US' liking.

The issue is that Putin is defends capitalism and the nation state system. Therefore, the only solution he can seek is one within this framework.

But it is the nationstate system itself that is leading to world war.

So any government (imperialist such as the US, or the target of imperialism such as Russia) will necessarily carry out the most horrific crimes of mass murder and violence against the workign class.

That is why Lenin and the Bolsheviks were the decisive factor in stopping WW1. Their political aim was the abolition of the world nation state system. The capitalist governments were terrified by a government which refused to play within their rules, and they were terrified that the workers within their own countries would catch on to the idea. Hence, they rapidly organised a cease fire.

 

[Mobbs]

Ukraine bans officials from using Telegram on state-issued devices

Decision comes after evidence was shared showing Russia’s ability to access Telegram messages and personal data.

www.aljazeera.com

And in case you believe al jazeera is one of those "fake news websites", here is another:

https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/ukraine-bans-official-use-telegram-app-over-fears-russian-spying-2024-09-20/

Actually the reports confirm what I'd heard anyway, so apparently we don't even disagree here.

I'm trying to find the post where a milblogger said its not new, but hard to scan for it when its only cyriillic text and I don't know what channel I saw it on.

 

[Zidane98]

You were right about wsws.

WSWS reliability rating

The only absolutely reliable news source in the world, due to its political program.

Kyiv Independent

Media reliability rating for Kyiv independent

Ukrinform and that Ukrainian Twitter account you or one of your like minded posters linked here.

Grayzone is certainly more independent than any of the news sources you have ever referred to here.

LOL

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/06/02/grayzone-russia-iran-support/

Grayzone is a known promoter of Kremlin disinformation

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE​

A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.

• Overall, we rate The Grayzone Far-Left Biased and Questionable based on the promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and consistent one-sided reporting.

---

Detailed Report​

Reasoning: Propaganda, Conspiracies, False Claims
Bias Rating: FAR LEFT
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: USA
MBFC’s Country Freedom Rating: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: Medium Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY


History


Founded in 2015 by Max Blumenthal, The Gray Zone is a far-left news and opinion website that produces long-form journalism. Max Blumenthal is a writing fellow of the Nation Institute. He also is a journalist, author, and filmmaker who is a regular contributor to the Questionable Russian news sites, RT and Sputnik. According to their about page, “The Grayzone is an independent news website dedicated to original investigative journalism and analysis on politics and empire.”


Read our profile on the United States government and media.

Funded by / Ownership​

The left-leaning website Alternet sponsored the Grayzone until 2018. In 2018, The Grayzone became independent, with Max Blumenthal as the owner. Donations generate revenue.

Analysis / Bias​

The Grayzone produces in-depth journalism from a far-left perspective such as this The US is turning oil-rich Nigeria into a proxy for its Africa wars. All stories reviewed were properly sourced from mostly credible media and information sources.


Max Blumenthal edits The Grayzone, and therefore, the website reflects his political views. He is a strong supporter of Venezuela and firmly against the USA policies of sanctions and regime change UN expert details crushing human toll of US sanctions on Venezuela. Blumenthal and The Grayzone are vehemently opposed to Israeli occupation and treatment of Palestinians Trump’s fake ‘peace plan’ is permanent apartheid for Palestine. Another common theme is anti-corporate bias, such as How big corporations and Bill Gates took over the UN food Summit.

---

---

The Grayzone publishes questionable material, stating that a Chemical Attack did not occur in Douma, Syria OPCW investigator testifies at UN that no chemical attack took place in Douma, Syria. They have also promoted conspiracy theories, such as claiming that Pete Buttigieg is a CIA agent. There is no evidence to support this claim. Finally, according to Radio Free Asia, The Grayzone content is frequently shared by the Chinese Communist Party media outlets “CCP propaganda is also increasingly laundered through Western influencers and denialist fringe media outlets like The Grayzone,” the report said, adding that, between December 2019 and February 2021, The Grayzone was cited at least 313 times in Chinese state media.”


Finally, The Grayzone promotes conspiracy theories involving George Soros funding regime changes, and the editor Max Blumenthal claims that Bill Gates ran a Covid simulation before it occurred. This is false. In general, The Grayzone promotes a socialist left perspective that promotes conspiracy theories and pro-Russian/Chinese propaganda.

Failed Fact Checks​

• A third-party fact-checker has not directly fact-checked them.

Overall, we rate The Grayzone Far-Left Biased and Questionable based on the promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and consistent one-sided reporting. (D. Van Zandt 9/25/2021) Updated (07/04/2024)


Source: https://thegrayzone.com/


Last Updated on July 4, 2024 by Media Bias Fact Check


So, pretty much an unreliable news source, especially on Russia. Unsurprising you rate them highly...

As for Novosti, I would rate it on a par with Kyev Independent and Ukrinform, along with tass.ru, rt.com.

I won't bother embarrassing you with Novosti's credibility rating. We do understand - you probably don't get access to any unbiased media outlets where you live that aren't filtered out by the state. This is the likely reason why you make the laughable argument that the sources you quoted are more reliable than Ukraine which actually has fair and free media which probably makes citizens like you jealous.

 

[IlovethePies]

WSWS reliability rating

View attachment 2118738



Media reliability rating for Kyiv independent

View attachment 2118739





LOL

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/06/02/grayzone-russia-iran-support/

Grayzone is a known promoter of Kremlin disinformation

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE​

A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.

• Overall, we rate The Grayzone Far-Left Biased and Questionable based on the promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and consistent one-sided reporting.

---

Detailed Report​

Reasoning: Propaganda, Conspiracies, False Claims
Bias Rating: FAR LEFT
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: USA
MBFC’s Country Freedom Rating: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: Medium Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY


History


Founded in 2015 by Max Blumenthal, The Gray Zone is a far-left news and opinion website that produces long-form journalism. Max Blumenthal is a writing fellow of the Nation Institute. He also is a journalist, author, and filmmaker who is a regular contributor to the Questionable Russian news sites, RT and Sputnik. According to their about page, “The Grayzone is an independent news website dedicated to original investigative journalism and analysis on politics and empire.”


Read our profile on the United States government and media.

Funded by / Ownership​

The left-leaning website Alternet sponsored the Grayzone until 2018. In 2018, The Grayzone became independent, with Max Blumenthal as the owner. Donations generate revenue.

Analysis / Bias​

The Grayzone produces in-depth journalism from a far-left perspective such as this The US is turning oil-rich Nigeria into a proxy for its Africa wars. All stories reviewed were properly sourced from mostly credible media and information sources.


Max Blumenthal edits The Grayzone, and therefore, the website reflects his political views. He is a strong supporter of Venezuela and firmly against the USA policies of sanctions and regime change UN expert details crushing human toll of US sanctions on Venezuela. Blumenthal and The Grayzone are vehemently opposed to Israeli occupation and treatment of Palestinians Trump’s fake ‘peace plan’ is permanent apartheid for Palestine. Another common theme is anti-corporate bias, such as How big corporations and Bill Gates took over the UN food Summit.

---

---

The Grayzone publishes questionable material, stating that a Chemical Attack did not occur in Douma, Syria OPCW investigator testifies at UN that no chemical attack took place in Douma, Syria. They have also promoted conspiracy theories, such as claiming that Pete Buttigieg is a CIA agent. There is no evidence to support this claim. Finally, according to Radio Free Asia, The Grayzone content is frequently shared by the Chinese Communist Party media outlets “CCP propaganda is also increasingly laundered through Western influencers and denialist fringe media outlets like The Grayzone,” the report said, adding that, between December 2019 and February 2021, The Grayzone was cited at least 313 times in Chinese state media.”


Finally, The Grayzone promotes conspiracy theories involving George Soros funding regime changes, and the editor Max Blumenthal claims that Bill Gates ran a Covid simulation before it occurred. This is false. In general, The Grayzone promotes a socialist left perspective that promotes conspiracy theories and pro-Russian/Chinese propaganda.

Failed Fact Checks​

• A third-party fact-checker has not directly fact-checked them.

Overall, we rate The Grayzone Far-Left Biased and Questionable based on the promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and consistent one-sided reporting. (D. Van Zandt 9/25/2021) Updated (07/04/2024)


Source: https://thegrayzone.com/


Last Updated on July 4, 2024 by Media Bias Fact Check


So, pretty much an unreliable news source, especially on Russia. Unsurprising you rate them highly...


I won't bother embarrassing you with Novosti's credibility rating. We do understand - you probably don't get access to any unbiased media outlets where you live that aren't filtered out by the state. This is the likely reason why you make the laughable argument that the sources you quoted are more reliable than Ukraine which actually has fair and free media which probably makes citizens like you jealous.

This reply is laughable.
You simply quote totally pro-imperialist media bias checkers. Anything that opposes in any remote way US propaganda is considered by them to be "extreme left".

the fact that you rely on them to form your own opinion is pathetic.