Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[ferball]

Hes on twitter! You can tweet or DM him.

Go hard thy protector of anti-russuan slander

Edit, hete is his profile

x.com

x.com

So you want me to support Elon Musk by getting a twitter account?

No thanks.

I'm just pointing out that is racist shit from a country that allows pogroms in the 21st century.

No I said they woulding be funding Ukraine, which quite obviously meant in this war, if Putin hadn't invaded.

Hell, if Putin hadn't invaded Ukraine in '14 it would still be the military is was prior.

Russia aren't attacking us, Putin is a coward he will only ever attack smaller nations he thinks can't fight back.

Putin didn't invade Ukraine in 2014. he supplied military support to locals. (Like the military support the US provided in response. Even Trump gave Ukraine half a billion dollars worth of weapons in 2019.) None of that would have happened without significant local agreement. Ask yourself why that might be the case before you take sides in what was (back then) essentially a minor civil war.

 

[ferball]

Again, not what I am talking about.

Just the Russian Government. That's all.

The Russian Government invaded another country. That's all. Everything you mentioned is consistent with what happens when a country invades its neighbour. Israel attacking Lebanon isn't the purest expression of Jewish culture and neither is the Russian invasion or that war crime.

When people start conflating the actions of a state with the actions of an entire ethnic group then they're following a path toward dehumanisation of that ethnic group and all the risk that entails and it happens on this thread and the other one about this conflict all the time.

 

[ferball]

Why are you in favour of Russia invading a sovereign country?

Am I?

 

[ferball]

I want you to demonstrate your commitment to the cause by getting on twitter and telling these awful Ukrainians how racist they are.

So brave

Its his business if he wants to be a racist jerk. You're the one promoting his ideas in this thread tho. Ironic you're criticising my courage when ol' mate is in Kyiv. Not even on the front line in his own country. He's a coward isn't he? He talks a big game but he's not putting his body on the line.

Yes he did.

Once you've washed the cum out your mouth and had a good crack at those Ukrainians report back.

Homophobia? Classy. I thought it was only Putin and Russia that were sposed to hate Queer folk.

Your w***er mate Jay probably supports this shit:

 

[Chief]

The Russian Government invaded another country. That's all. Everything you mentioned is consistent with what happens when a country invades its neighbour. Israel attacking Lebanon isn't the purest expression of Jewish culture and neither is the Russian invasion or that war crime.

When people start conflating the actions of a state with the actions of an entire ethnic group then they're following a path toward dehumanisation of that ethnic group and all the risk that entails and it happens on this thread and the other one about this conflict all the time.

OK this is going nowhere. Agree to disagree about what I'm actually saying.

 

[ferball]

OK this is going nowhere. Agree to disagree about what I'm actually saying.

I honestly don't understand what your point is.

 

[Chief]

I honestly don't understand what your point is.

I got that.

 

[wannabejack]

...
Putin didn't invade Ukraine in 2014. he supplied military support to locals. ...

In February and March 2014, Russia invaded the Crimean Peninsula, part of Ukraine, and then annexed it. (used “little green men” to give it plausible deniability).
annexed : to take possession of an area of land or a country, usually by force or without permission.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Am I?

Your posts suggest you are.

 

[Aussie in exile]

The Russian Government invaded another country. That's all. Everything you mentioned is consistent with what happens when a country invades its neighbour. Israel attacking Lebanon isn't the purest expression of Jewish culture and neither is the Russian invasion or that war crime.

When people start conflating the actions of a state with the actions of an entire ethnic group then they're following a path toward dehumanisation of that ethnic group and all the risk that entails and it happens on this thread and the other one about this conflict all the time.

The Russian government invading another country is just as bad as the Chinese invading here, would you agree?

 

[ferball]

In February and March 2014, Russia invaded the Crimean Peninsula, part of Ukraine, and then annexed it. (used “little green men” to give it plausible deniability).
annexed : to take possession of an area of land or a country, usually by force or without permission.

Ukraine annexed Crimea as well. It wanted independence 30 years ago.

 

[ferball]

Your posts suggest you are.

I think that's in your head.

The Russian government invading another country is just as bad as the Chinese invading here, would you agree?

Invading another country is pretty sus behaviour.

I honestly think none of this would have happened without US interference in Ukraine (starting in the 00s.) They provoked this situation.

That doesn't mean its justified what Putin did, but its not surprising and I personally wonder if this was what certain elements in the US state dept wanted. A US think tank (Rand) prepared briefing papers about ways to stress Russia pre covid and one of the options they examined was continuing to provide lethal assistance to Ukraine. They thought driving Russia to spend more on its military would stress its economy (which is not really logical, if anything it'd stimulate the economy provided the war didn't start.)

The major risk they saw with this strategy was provoking an invasion.

 

[wannabejack]

Ukraine annexed Crimea as well. It wanted independence 30 years ago.

Crimea was a part of Ukraine “30 years ago”. So no annexation occurred.

..in a controversial referendum in January 1991, an over- whelming majority of the Crimean populace approved a proposal to reestablish a Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. Since then, Crimea has been an autonomous republic, but within Ukraine.

 

[ferball]

Crimea was a part of Ukraine “30 years ago”. So no annexation occurred.

..in a controversial referendum in January 1991, an over- whelming majority of the Crimean populace approved a proposal to reestablish a Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. Since then, Crimea has been an autonomous republic, but within Ukraine.

Three years later Crimea voted in a pro Russian president and changed their constitution to enable more autonomy.

Ukraine responded in 1995 by invading Crimea, outlawing their autonomous government with an act of parliament and exiling the elected president.

 

[wannabejack]

Three years later Crimea voted in a pro Russian president and changed their constitution to enable more autonomy.

Ukraine responded in 1995 by invading Crimea, outlawing their autonomous government with an act of parliament and exiling the elected president.

Crimean Peninsula has been part of Ukraine since 1954.
How is it possible for Ukraine to "invade" itself.

 

[ferball]

Crimean Peninsula has been part of Ukraine since 1954.
How is it possible for Ukraine to "invade" itself.

In 1992 Crimea started to move from autonomy to independence declaring itself the Republic of Crimea. Eventually Ukraine denied Crimea its aspirations to freedom by sending thousands of police and soldiers in 1995, writing a new constitution for Crimea from Kyiv then sending special forces to the President's residence and sending him into exile.

Crimea had a 300 year treaty with Russia that ended in 1954 when the Head of the USSR, who was also head of the Ukrainian Communist Party broke the treaty and made Crimea part of Ukraine for essentially administrative reasons. None of the USSR, UKraine or Russia have ever facilitated Crimea's desire for independence, all of them have occupied the peninsula for their own reasons since the remnants of the Golden Horde signed the treaty with Russia 250+ years ago.

 

[wannabejack]

In 1992 Crimea started to move from autonomy to independence declaring itself the Republic of Crimea. Eventually Ukraine denied Crimea its aspirations to freedom by sending thousands of police and soldiers in 1995, writing a new constitution for Crimea from Kyiv then sending special forces to the President's residence and sending him into exile.

Crimea had a 300 year treaty with Russia that ended in 1954 when the Head of the USSR, who was also head of the Ukrainian Communist Party broke the treaty and made Crimea part of Ukraine for essentially administrative reasons. None of the USSR, UKraine or Russia have ever facilitated Crimea's desire for independence, all of them have occupied the peninsula for their own reasons since the remnants of the Golden Horde signed the treaty with Russia 250+ years ago.

Look, you can quote your “history” but stop using erroneous language.

“Ukraine annexed Crimea” and “Ukraine responded in 1995 by invading Crimea”.
It’s only russia that have invaded and annexed Crimea.

Your “300 year treaty” ended when “in 1783 Catherine II (the Great) annexed the peninsula, and it became Russian territory.”
russia seems to have a history of annexing Crimea.

 

[ferball]

Look, you can quote your “history” but stop using erroneous language.

“Ukraine annexed Crimea” and “Ukraine responded in 1995 by invading Crimea”.
It’s only russia that have invaded and annexed Crimea.

Okay they denied the local population the right to proper self determination. Why have you got the word "history" in quotation marks. Don't you believe that stuff happened?

Your “300 year treaty” ended when “in 1783 Catherine II (the Great) annexed the peninsula, and it became Russian territory.”
russia seems to have a history of annexing Crimea.

Yeah I might have been getting the 300 year treaty confused with something else.

But really it was no surprise they annexed it back then. Do you know much about the Golden Horde? Its last remnants ruled Crimea when the Russians took it in 1783.

Not that it matters. Acting as if the Ukraine has some right to Crimea is a bit like acting as if Russia does. But it was Ukraine that denied them their right to self determination in the 1990s.

 

[Zidane98]

Plummeting oil prices. Saudi increasing production despite Putin's pleas.

It's going just great for Russia.

 

[Chief]

Okay they denied the local population the right to proper self determination.

And the Russians moved the local population out.

Not that we want to bring up these pesky little facts.

 

[barreness]

Ukraine had never previously attempted to join.

You keep repeating this and I keep linking this, move on man. It's not hard to find out

In April 2005, Viktor Yushchenko returned to Ukraine's military doctrine the mention of Ukraine's strategic goal – "full membership in NATO and the European Union." The new text read as follows: "Based on the fact that NATO and the EU are the guarantors of security and stability in Europe, Ukraine is preparing for full membership in these organizations."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations#Presidency_of_Leonid_Kuchma_(1994–2005)

They were a NATO security partner. Just like Russia was until Putin became a rampaging fascist intent on creating a new USSR 2.0 lite edition.

There is an interesting what if history argument here

Considering all security assurances Ukraine signed with Russia were effectively useless and only to suit Russia (ironically with the US helping Russia get its hand on Ukranian military equipment on this) NATO membership for Ukraine is now an inevitability.

Yeh, no one wanted Ukraine to keep those nukes, for obvious reasons

Ukrainians want to and will be like Poland. They want to be like the Baltics. They don't want to be like Belarus.

Part of the greater Polish Lithuanian commonwealth? Unironically this could end up being something for a west Ukrainian province

 

[barreness]

I dont think we need to go down the path of 'it's done in the past' bit.

Fair

Putin is the one in charge.

Yes

However you seem to be implying that it's Russian Culture to wreak genocide on your neighbours, that might upset a certain poster once he comes back from telling a Ukranian off for being racist to Russians bombing his city.

It's in all empire's cultures to impose their will on their smaller neighbours, shit we do it with the island states surrounding Australia.

I hate it and think we need a cultural revolution, don't think anyone can say it's not predictable though

 

[barreness]

Throughout history empires (by whatever name) were common. You may have missed since the end of WW2 countries have been getting out of the Empire business.

lol

Except for Russia, first as the Soviet Union and now as Russia under Putin. If Putin is allowed Ukraine, why not France Algeria back, or England India back? Countries would rightly laugh if any European countries even said they think they should have any empire again.

Yet Russian apologists think they have some right, every other country (rightly) gave up on the decades after the Second World War.

Why should Ukraine (/Georgia/Moldova) suffer for Putin stuck 75 years behind the rest of the world?

France is an interesting example, currently being purged from their African colonies, only to be replaced by Russia, hmmmmmmm


I note you avoid mention of the US empire with 800 military bases in 80 countries spanning the entire globe, definitely not an empire so they say

 

[barreness]

Its mystery to me as to why you are in favour on Russia invading a soveraigh country?
Would you feel the same way if the Chinese attacked us?

I would feel the same way as if they invaded Taiwan, not my/our business.

Depends how it changed my day to day life?