Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

Not a single person here has ever claimed there is not an element of Neo-Nazism in Ukraine. But it's insignificantly diluted in reality, much like it is here in Australia.

How do you know?

 

[Baldur]

Yeah, Russia is basically a combo of the worst and most right wing aspects of Australia and the US but loved by cooked gen xers who still identify as lefties for whatever reason.

I think its projected self-hatred, they hate themselves, most likely for good reason. But rather than admitting this they project this hate onto the societies they live in. The societies opposed to the societies they live in then become objects of uncritical love.

 

[jatz14]

Very good post Ferball.

You are absolutely right in pointing out the horrible hypocricy that reigns on this thread with all those here who (rightly) condemn Putin as a criminal dictator, but fail to notice that Biden and NATO support Israel's genocide in the Middle East.

Yet somehow they want us to believe that Zelensky, Biden and US/NATO are the 'good guys'

And you are absolutely correct in your description of Ukraine: the Zelensky regime is not a democracy, but is a police state which has cancelled elections, banned all left wing political opposition parties, and imprisons anyone who opposes the war.

As your comments also illustrate, it is based on xenophobia (primarily anti Russian), but also anti-Roma.

Another bonkers take from the usual.

First, these are unrelated events, either would have occurred regardless of the other.
Second, reactions to events in the middle east have no bearing on events in Ukraine. Your attempt to link the 2 is merely an admission you have no valid arguments.
Third, all people are immoral to some degree, this doesn't invalidate any good they do. I judge American participation in Ukraine by events in Ukraine, how good or evil they are elsewhere is entirely irrelevant.
Even if Zelensky is a criminal, this neither invalidates his efforts to defend Ukraine, nor justifies the invasion. Putin is clearly a criminal, yet you never bring that up to criticise Russia, nor justify actions against Russia.
I do not mention Israel in this thread, so you assume, in that vacuous info free way you have, what I and others must think. The Israel government, like the Russian government, is a war criminal, and like the Russian government, should be stopped. That America is helping stop Russia is good, that it's doing little if anything to stop Israel is bad. It, and we, should do more, in both case.

I do not talk about it here, because this is the thread discussing Russian crimes, and the international attempt to curtail them.

What you are doing, blatantly, pathetically, uselessly, is taking 2 different events, and trying to draw some equivalence between them, in order to use 1 event to make arguments in the other event, because you cannot mount a coherent argument otherwise.


You have tried to paint Ukraine and the US as evil in fighting of Russian aggression, and that this evil justifies supporting a war of aggression, and it hasn't worked.

So now you switch to Israel. It's ok to oppose Ukraine defending itself because Israel is bad. Ukraine shouldn't get military help, because Israel is. Zelenski is bad, because Putin said he is, or more accurately, Zelenski is bad because American mouthpieces paid by Putin, said he is, so Russia should win the war.

It's pathetic.

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[IlovethePies]

Second, reactions to events in the middle east have no bearing on events in Ukraine. Your attempt to link the 2 is merely an admission you have no valid arguments.

And this is where you are utterly wrong. Events in the Middle East are totally interconnected with the events in Ukraine. They are part of the same war, in which US imperialism is tobogganing to disaster as it tries to redivide the world in its own interests.

Russia has a presence in both Syria and Iran. The US is attempting to subordinate the Middle East to its control, via its proxy Israel.

Russia is an impediment. Hence, war against Iran is completely related to breaking Russia's hold in the Middle East.

...and the dismemberment of Russia is a fundamental goal of US/NATO imperialism. So anything that weakens Russia is gold coin for US imperialism.

The war in Ukraine is not really going to plan for US/NATO. The Ukrainian army is being bled white, and the front is moving in favour of Russia.

So the US is now hell bent on opening up a new front, by giving Israel the green light to launch an attack on Iran.

You need to stop thinking of the world as a set of unrelated events, confined to limited geographical spaces.

Such thinking belongs to a different period of history.

Today, the world is totally interconnected economically, socially and politically. Every major event, anywhere in the world, has repercussions and consequences across the globe.

Events in Ukraine (identified by key US imperialist strategists as a pivot point in Eurasia) are totally bound up with events in the Middle East (a key geostrategic region due to its resources, and geographical proximity to both Russia and Europe.

If you reject this, then you have no hope of cognising anything in contemporary reality.

 

[IlovethePies]

Even if Zelensky is a criminal, this neither invalidates his efforts to defend Ukraine, nor justifies the invasion. Putin is clearly a criminal, yet you never bring that up to criticise Russia, nor justify actions against Russia.
I do not mention Israel in this thread, so you assume, in that vacuous info free way you have, what I and others must think. The Israel government, like the Russian government, is a war criminal, and like the Russian government, should be stopped. That America is helping stop Russia is good, that it's doing little if anything to stop Israel is bad. It, and we, should do more, in both case.



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I don't assume anything about what you think in relation to Israel. I mention Israel solely to point out that the US and NATO - who support Netanyahu - simultaneously support Zelensky.

So on the one hand, as you yourself have just admitted, the US government is supporting the war criminals in Tel Aviv. Yet you want us to think that the US has noble intentions in supporting Zelensky?

You said: "Even if Zelensky is a criminal, this neither invalidates his efforts to defend Ukraine, nor justifies the invasion"

Certainly, Zelensky's criminality does not justify Putin's invasion, because as I have said in a previous post, Putin is just as much a criminal as Zelensky.

However, how can you glibly say that even if Zelensky is a criminal, it is OK to support his efforts to "defend Ukraine" If he is a criminal, then perhaps it is necessary to analyse what this war is about, rather than just give him your uncritical support?

 

[Blue1980]

Another bonkers take from the usual.

First, these are unrelated events, either would have occurred regardless of the other.
Second, reactions to events in the middle east have no bearing on events in Ukraine. Your attempt to link the 2 is merely an admission you have no valid arguments.
Third, all people are immoral to some degree, this doesn't invalidate any good they do. I judge American participation in Ukraine by events in Ukraine, how good or evil they are elsewhere is entirely irrelevant.
Even if Zelensky is a criminal, this neither invalidates his efforts to defend Ukraine, nor justifies the invasion. Putin is clearly a criminal, yet you never bring that up to criticise Russia, nor justify actions against Russia.
I do not mention Israel in this thread, so you assume, in that vacuous info free way you have, what I and others must think. The Israel government, like the Russian government, is a war criminal, and like the Russian government, should be stopped. That America is helping stop Russia is good, that it's doing little if anything to stop Israel is bad. It, and we, should do more, in both case.

I do not talk about it here, because this is the thread discussing Russian crimes, and the international attempt to curtail them.

What you are doing, blatantly, pathetically, uselessly, is taking 2 different events, and trying to draw some equivalence between them, in order to use 1 event to make arguments in the other event, because you cannot mount a coherent argument otherwise.


You have tried to paint Ukraine and the US as evil in fighting of Russian aggression, and that this evil justifies supporting a war of aggression, and it hasn't worked.

So now you switch to Israel. It's ok to oppose Ukraine defending itself because Israel is bad. Ukraine shouldn't get military help, because Israel is. Zelenski is bad, because Putin said he is, or more accurately, Zelenski is bad because American mouthpieces paid by Putin, said he is, so Russia should win the war.

It's pathetic.

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The idea Ukraine needs to be a perfect victim is insane.

They were invaded for no good reason by Russia, end of story.

Zelensky has to back the US, I hate what Israel are doing and what America are doing to support it, but wtf would Zelensky slag off his biggest ally in defending themselves against Russia?

The Nazi shit in Ukraine is BS, the US has a Nazi problem and might be under a guy who will give them free will to do as the please in a couple of weeks, maybe Russia should invade them too. (Instead of just sowing seeds of its destruction via misinformation)

 

[barreness]

This was a nice litmus test of how you would respond. The stuff about invading Belarus was sarcastic, there is no justification for any NATO state to invade Belarus.

Belarus is happy being a vatnik state right now, nobody is going to change that apart from the people themselves if they ever decide they've had enough of Lukashenko effectively acting as an employee of Putin.

The people of Ukraine have for a long time wanted Ukraine rid of Russian opporession & subjugation. Not the US, not the EU. The people of Ukraine. I can see this doesn't sit well with you so the way that you deal with it (and identically how Putin & co deal with it) is to blame it on the US.

It is so obvious.

Some of the country wanted the Nationalists in charge some didn't, the nation was split. After the success of Euromaidan and the ascension of the US's hand picked leaders there were counter protests in Crimea and the south eastern oblasts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters), between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while between 42% and 50% opposed it.[298][299][300] The biggest support for the protest was found in Kyiv (about 75%) and western Ukraine (more than 80%).[298][301] Among Euromaidan protesters, 55% were from the west of the country, with 24% from central Ukraine and 21% from the east.

 

[barreness]

No they did not apply in 2004. This isn't true. They became a security partner and declared eventually they would like to join NATO. That should come as no surprise - former communist bloc states that joined NATO have fared much better than Ukraine in almost all areas and the people of Ukraine have for a long time in a majority wanted to be part of Europe.

"Declared eventually they would like to", that my man in trying to join NATO

They didn't give 3000 nukes back, these were never the possessions of the so called Russian federation.

They were soviet nukes, the Russian federation was the successor state to the USSR, this really isn't debated by anyone

They were theirs and Ukraine were much more reluctant to turn them over than other states like Kazakhstan. Remembering many of these weapons were manufactured in Ukraine including the authorisation systems Ukraine had the means to adapt them to their own needs. They gave them up only because the US encouraged them to on the guarantee that Russia would not invade Ukraine and/or respect its territorial integrity. As well as nukes cruise & ballsitic missiles were transferred, TU160 bombers. This absolutely was a mistake in hindsight.

The rocket industry was based in Ukraine, staffed by scientists and engineers from all over the Soviet Union. They lost most of the industrial capacity and knowledge when the Union was disbanded, I wonder why?

So you agree both Russia and the US(nor anyone sane) didn't want Ukraine with a shitload of nukes? It's pretty obvious why they stationed them there, proximity to other nuclear armed states in western europe

Are the nukes stationed in Turkey Turkish? or are they US nukes? Could they launch them if idk Iran invaded them?

Back to debunked US conspiracy theories again. You obviously can not accept the fact that Ukraine does not want to be a puppet state of Russia anymore and that this was the choice of the people and the government, not the US.

Sure, there was a significant grass roots protest movement, the US also hand picked the leaders.

If there was no US interference I'd guess the Russian response would have been different

Ukraine has one of the most advanced nuclear industries in the world. All of the above it could easily manage if required to.

Lol, no they don't. It's all legacy soviet tech, Ukraine as an independent state hasn't built a reactor, they sold their highly enriched stockpile for more fuel rods because they have no enrichment facilities

As did the structure of Ukraine. Tell us how the structure of the so called Russian federation in the mid 90s was any different to the structure of Ukraine at the same time. Russia was more rife with corruption than anything with USSR era oligarchs using their contacts to buy state assets for next to nothing, eventually selling them back to the state for a huge profit (eg Roman Abramovich)/

Because Russia had proven to be a safe pair of hands over the last 50 odd years in not launching a nuke, as the succesor state to the USSR and with the leadership structure still based in Moscow the US (and anyone sane) thought those bombs were better in the hands of the Russians

The decision to arm Russia with Ukranian security assets absolutely was the wrong decision in every way. Russia is clearly an unstable state after the break up of the USSR with too much power vested in those who have connections from the USSR era.

Ah yes the nation with two revolutions in the last 2 decades were clearly the right option for world destroying munitions

What happened in 2022 was that Ukraine actually applied to join NATO for the first time. Considering the events of the 100% unjustified fascist Putin invasion of Ukraine this has to be the least surprising news of all time.

Sure, when we use your very specific criteria

More likely that the Independent People's Republics of Bryansk, Kursk & Belgorod return back to Ukranian rule after they were illegally transferred in the early USSR days along with Smolensk, Checyhna & Dagestan denazifying themselves out of the so called Russian federation.

So Georgia attacking their autonomous regions was a crime and Transnistria should get self govt right? Crimea held an election and joined Russia yes?

This is silly, we all know Russia isn't giving up land

 

[Zidane98]

Some of the country wanted the Nationalists in charge some didn't, the nation was split. After the success of Euromaidan and the ascension of the US's hand picked leaders there were counter protests in Crimea and the south eastern oblasts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters), between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while between 42% and 50% opposed it.[298][299][300] The biggest support for the protest was found in Kyiv (about 75%) and western Ukraine (more than 80%).[298][301] Among Euromaidan protesters, 55% were from the west of the country, with 24% from central Ukraine and 21% from the east.

You really do have Russian propaganda on recycle.


The Rada did not change after Euro Maidan apart from the interim leader (Turchynov) appointed by the Rada until elections were complete.


Yanukovych fled Ukraine to Russia (everyone knows why). This was determined to be abandoning his position of President, of which the Rada voted 328-0 in favor of. Elections were then announced to be held in June.


It only changed after the June 2014 elections. Government was formed by a majority with Poroshenko the elected leader of Ukraine. This is an absolute fact that no amount of your repeating of pro Russian falsehoods can change.

And before you try the Yatsenyuk nonsense he was also offered the role of Prime Minister by Yanukovych on 25th January 2014. So it was hardly a surprise that he become acting Prime Minister after Turchynov was the President also, and it is of note that Turchynov was the acting PM before Yatsenyuk in 2014 and also in 2010 for the Yanukovych government. Turchynov can in no possible way be described as a hand picked leader of Ukraine.


In June Poroshenko's government was voted in. Party of Regions (Russian puppet political party) participated in this election and lost resoundingly.

The people of Ukraine decided the future of Ukraine. The time for your pro Russian propaganda has come to a close.

 

[Zidane98]

"Declared eventually they would like to", that my man in trying to join NATO

And what exactly would be the issue with this? The facts were joining was not on the agenda at the time and hasn't been until the Ukranian constitution was amended to allow it in 2019.

They were soviet nukes, the Russian federation was the successor state to the USSR, this really isn't debated by anyone

Please explain the process behind Russia being the successor state to the USSR. Did Russia reapply to join the UN after the USSR was dissolved? All other newly formed states from former dissolved states had to do this (Yugoslavia, Czekoslovakia etc).

The rocket industry was based in Ukraine, staffed by scientists and engineers from all over the Soviet Union. They lost most of the industrial capacity and knowledge when the Union was disbanded, I wonder why?

Not true, all of the major enterprises became state owned by Ukraine. Look at the success of Antonov for example, much better than the shambles that Russian manufacturers have become post USSR.

So you agree both Russia and the US(nor anyone sane) didn't want Ukraine with a shitload of nukes? It's pretty obvious why they stationed them there, proximity to other nuclear armed states in western europe

The US wanted security & stability in the region that would be provided by an absolute guarantee by Russia to not attack or invade Ukraine who did not want to give up their weapons.

This has proven to be a colossal mistake as it is proven that Russia is not a trustworthy power and cannot be relied upon as a security partner. The fact is the US would not have agreed to this if it was known how Russia would behave in 20-30 years time.

Are the nukes stationed in Turkey Turkish? or are they US nukes? Could they launch them if idk Iran invaded them?

Sure, there was a significant grass roots protest movement, the US also hand picked the leaders.

No they didn't, this is a lie and you are aware that this is a lie. We can only guess why you continue to post proven pro Russian falsehoods.

If there was no US interference I'd guess the Russian response would have been different

There was US interference, it helped Russia get its hands on Ukraine's weapons and as a result has allowed Russia to invade / attack Ukraine. For once, you get something right.

Lol, no they don't. It's all legacy soviet tech, Ukraine as an independent state hasn't built a reactor, they sold their highly enriched stockpile for more fuel rods because they have no enrichment facilities

Russia didn't develop nuclear technology either, it's also all legacy soviet tech. The so called Russian federation has only existed since 1991 and many constituent republics did not agree with being absorbed into the Russian federation either.

Ukraine does have enrichment facilities also

Energoatom sends first batch of Ukrainian-mined uranium to Canada

The first batch of uranium mined at the Eastern Mining and Enrichment Plant in Ukraine has been sent to Canada where it will be converted into natural uranium hexafluoride as part of the company's agreement with Cameco.;

www.world-nuclear-news.org

Because Russia had proven to be a safe pair of hands over the last 50 odd years in not launching a nuke, as the succesor state to the USSR and with the leadership structure still based in Moscow the US (and anyone sane) thought those bombs were better in the hands of the Russians

Russian Federation didn't exist until 1991. It has proven to be less than reliable as a security partner, that's obvious even to the most ardent of tankies like yourself.

Ah yes the nation with two revolutions in the last 2 decades were clearly the right option for world destroying munitions

As opposed to Russia which had a total economic meltdown in 1998 due to not being able to meet its obligations to post Soviet states in Central Asia.


The same Russia that is now isolated as a pariah state. Banned from countless international associations. We can all agree that the US convincing Ukranians to hand over their military tech in the Budapest agreement was a mistake that has directly lead to Russia invading Ukraine for the reasons of expanding Putin's empire.

Sure, when we use your very specific criteria

What's specific about applying to join NATO? You either do or you dont. Did Russia "join" NATO because they asked about joining in the early 2000s? No is the answer of course.

Ukraine has made no such application until September 2022 and this was only brought upon your nation invading Ukraine and Putin acting like a fascist madman.

So Georgia attacking their autonomous regions was a crime and Transnistria should get self govt right? Crimea held an election and joined Russia yes?

More Russian lies. The 2008 war started when Russian troops attacked Georgian villages.

Tranistria is illegally occupied by Russia, as is Crimea. You know this, we know this.

This is silly, we all know Russia isn't giving up land

Same as Ukraine.

 

[ferball]

The idea Ukraine needs to be a perfect victim is insane.

They were invaded for no good reason by Russia, end of story.

Zelensky has to back the US, I hate what Israel are doing and what America are doing to support it, but wtf would Zelensky slag off his biggest ally in defending themselves against Russia?

The Nazi shit in Ukraine is BS, the US has a Nazi problem and might be under a guy who will give them free will to do as the please in a couple of weeks, maybe Russia should invade them too. (Instead of just sowing seeds of its destruction via misinformation)

Its real.

You think the US has a potential Nazi problem ... well they're allies. The US spread fascism around the world for decades after ww2.

This is the sort of shit that was going on repeatedly, year after year before the invasion. I doubt its stopped since.

Anti-Roma pogroms in Ukraine: on C14 and tolerating terror - European Roma Rights Centre

By Bernard Rorke Three anti-Roma pogroms within a month mark a worrying escalation of racist violence by ...

www.errc.org

 

[IlovethePies]

The idea Ukraine needs to be a perfect victim is insane.

They were invaded for no good reason by Russia, end of story.

Zelensky has to back the US, I hate what Israel are doing and what America are doing to support it, but wtf would Zelensky slag off his biggest ally in defending themselves against Russia?

The Nazi shit in Ukraine is BS, the US has a Nazi problem and might be under a guy who will give them free will to do as the please in a couple of weeks, maybe Russia should invade them too. (Instead of just sowing seeds of its destruction via misinformation)

The "Nazi shit in Ukraine is" absolutely NOT " BS".
Yes the US has a Nazi problem (does that not ring alarm bells for you??)
And Ukraine does as well.

As Ferball has indicated, in fact ever since the end of WW2, the US has been involved in supporting and encouraging fascist militias/tendencies in Ukraine.

(The Ukrainian Insurgent Army, a fascist militia, continued to wage a war against the Soviet Union until 1956 - it was funded by the US.)

US support for fascist forces went into hyperdrive during and after Maidan 2014.

Finally, everyone here needs to evaluate their critical thinking skills. If Nazism is an issue in the US (the heart of global capitalism), how can we then possibly think that Nazism is not a problem in other countries which are closely allied with US imperialism?

 

[IlovethePies]

Add in Russia takes all the worst interpretations of parts of Christianity (anti-gays, anti-women, don't question authority), without any of the good parts (love thy neighbour, charity, community, anti-violence).

No, Russia takes in all the worst of capitalism.

Are you really suggesting that, in contrast, the US takes in "the good parts of Christianity (love thy neighbour, charity, community, anti-violence)???

 

[Andre]

No, Russia takes in all the worst of capitalism.

Are you really suggesting that, in contrast, the US takes in "the good parts of Christianity (love thy neighbour, charity, community, anti-violence)???

Ah, as usual with you it comes back to the US again. No, large parts of the US also take the worst of Christianity. These are called MAGA, support Trump and unsurprisingly support Russia.

Biden is barely capable of staying awake, Trump loved Putin, Obama let him cross red lines leading to the initial 2014 Crimea invasion and Bush Jr. was willing to let Russia do as they want, as long as they gave at least verbal support to his war on terror and Clinton was happy to drastically shrink the US military post-Cold War. There's been no wild US led anti-Russia campaign since Bush Sr. at the latest. And that was as the Cold War went through it's final splutters. Any cursory glance at the last few US presidents and then trying to construct some grand US led conspiracy to dominate Russia via Ukraine requires stronger drugs then any Doctor has ever prescribed me.

 

[IlovethePies]

Ah, as usual with you it comes back to the US again. No, large parts of the US also take the worst of Christianity. These are called MAGA, support Trump and unsurprisingly support Russia.

Biden is barely capable of staying awake, Trump loved Putin, Obama let him cross red lines leading to the initial 2014 Crimea invasion and Bush Jr. was willing to let Russia do as they want, as long as they gave at least verbal support to his war on terror and Clinton was happy to drastically shrink the US military post-Cold War. There's been no wild US led anti-Russia campaign since Bush Sr. at the latest. And that was as the Cold War went through it's final splutters. Any cursory glance at the last few US presidents and then trying to construct some grand US led conspiracy to dominate Russia via Ukraine requires stronger drugs then any Doctor has ever prescribed me.

You need a new doctor.

 

[Blue1980]

The "Nazi shit in Ukraine is" absolutely NOT " BS".
Yes the US has a Nazi problem (does that not ring alarm bells for you??)
And Ukraine does as well.

As Ferball has indicated, in fact ever since the end of WW2, the US has been involved in supporting and encouraging fascist militias/tendencies in Ukraine.

(The Ukrainian Insurgent Army, a fascist militia, continued to wage a war against the Soviet Union until 1956 - it was funded by the US.)

US support for fascist forces went into hyperdrive during and after Maidan 2014.

Finally, everyone here needs to evaluate their critical thinking skills. If Nazism is an issue in the US (the heart of global capitalism), how can we then possibly think that Nazism is not a problem in other countries which are closely allied with US imperialism?

Mmmhmmm, that is exactly why Russia have invaded, those swell anti-Nazi crusaders.

Nazism exists basically everywhere, I have no idea what your argument even is except USA = bad, so by default Russia = good.

 

[jatz14]

Its real.

You think the US has a potential Nazi problem ... well they're allies. The US spread fascism around the world for decades after ww2.

This is the sort of shit that was going on repeatedly, year after year before the invasion. I doubt its stopped since.

Anti-Roma pogroms in Ukraine: on C14 and tolerating terror - European Roma Rights Centre

By Bernard Rorke Three anti-Roma pogroms within a month mark a worrying escalation of racist violence by ...

www.errc.org

I dont get it?

You think the Russian invasion of Ukraine is justified because Roma have been treated badly in Ukraine?

Do you think that the historic poor treatment of Roma is related to Nazism? I hate to break it to you, but mistreatment of, and hostility towards Roma predates nazism by centuries. Nazism co-opted it as it co-opted much hatefulness, but using the existence of anti Roma sentiment in Ukraine as evidence for either Nazism or US involvement in the dissemination of Nazism in Ukraine is just a long winded way of saying you dont have a clue.

How much evidence of Roma persecution in Russia do I need to post for you to conclude Russia must be fascist due to the American spread of fascism, because there is lots available. Would this justify attacking Russia?

I mean, do you imagine that Russians, who hate the Roma, are going to treat them better? Or that Russia was upset at how they were being treated, and wanted to protect them?

 

[Jamolad]

Ukraine has Nazis...that's bad, invasion justified

Russia has Nazis...so what, who cares, nothing-burger, everyone does.

Roma get treated badly in Ukraine/Crimea...that's bad, good on Russia for invading them.

Roma get treated badly by Russians...nothing to see here.

Ukraine spoke of joining NATO 2 decades ago (though were ineligible to even begin the application process)...campaigners, kill them all.

Russia spoke of joining NATO 2 decades ago (but did not want to go through the application process, did not want to wait in line with a bunch of "countries that don't matter", just wanted to be granted automatic membership)...play-on, all is good.

Can't you just stick to your previous admissions that none of that, not the language crap, is even remotely close to the real reasons for Russia's invasion?

 

[Mobbs]

It's not really on thread topic but the Roma topic is currently alight in Chelyabinsk, where a taxi driver was murdered and I guess people put it down to "those Roma people" Riots, arrests, fleeing. Sorry on phone on train so rushed post.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[barreness]

Ukraine has Nazis...that's bad, invasion justified

Russia has Nazis...so what, who cares, nothing-burger, everyone does.

Roma get treated badly in Ukraine/Crimea...that's bad, good on Russia for invading them.

Roma get treated badly by Russians...nothing to see here.

Ukraine spoke of joining NATO 2 decades ago (though were ineligible to even begin the application process)...campaigners, kill them all.

Russia spoke of joining NATO 2 decades ago (but did not want to go through the application process, did not want to wait in line with a bunch of "countries that don't matter", just wanted to be granted automatic membership)...play-on, all is good.

I think most people accepted this was trolling by Russia, an explicitly anti Soviet/Russian organisation wasn't going to let them join

Can't you just stick to your previous admissions that none of that, not the language crap, is even remotely close to the real reasons for Russia's invasion?

Which is?

For strategic land, resources, and a buffer('neutral') state on their weak border?
Imperialists goals right.

 

[Zidane98]

It really is mind boggling that someone tries to use the issue of Roma people against Ukraine in a discussion about a war between Ukraine & Russia.


Maybe ask the Roma people of Ukraine instead of trying to use them in defending Russia's fascist actions in Ukraine may be a logical starting point.

Some simple investigating finds this

Minority communities and their future in Ukraine – the case of Roma

Today, all of Ukraine’s communities are fighting to protect the country from Russian aggression. This includes the Roma, an ethnic group that faces particular challenges in relation to their place in society. The integration of Roma, both now and after the end of the war, will be a key test...

neweasterneurope.eu

The Insider: “In ’41, we were hiding from the Germans in Russia. Now it’s the other way round”: Roma people recount life under Russian occupation

The Insider published a longread on the situation of Ukrainian Roma living in eastern Ukraine before 2014, after the start of hostilities by Russia in 2014, and after the start of Russia's full-scale invasion in February 2022. The article contains materials from ADC Memorial reports: Roma From...

adcmemorial.org

From this article

“But in several aspects, the situation in Ukraine was better than in Russia. For instance, children were seldom segregated in schools. I personally interviewed children who fled from the Donetsk region in 2014, and they all attended regular classes with other children in Ukraine.”


Also, for a candidate country to join the EU integration of Roma communities is a requirement. Russia doesn 't want Ukraine to join the EU. Once again, anyone that wants to support Roma people should be horrified about the Russian fascist invasion of Ukraine and encourage Ukraine's ascension to the EU which will undoubtedly improve the life of Ukraine's Roma community.

 

[Zidane98]

I think most people accepted this was trolling by Russia, an explicitly anti Soviet/Russian organisation wasn't going to let them join

More nonsense. Russia was a NATO security partner right up until 2020. There is nothing about NATO that is anti Russian unless you count peace & security for member states not being subjugated by Russian aggression /' empire expansion as against Russia.

Which is?

For strategic land, resources, and a buffer('neutral') state on their weak border?
Imperialists goals right.

I'm sure you've read many scripts about Putin's rants on his dream of a new "Great Russian" empire.


That empire isn't going to include Ukraine, never will again. Putin has ensured for many generations that Ukraine will not be a Russian puppet state again, nothing is surer.

And who can blame the Ukranians? If I were to choose between living in somewhere like Poland (EU integration, democracy, collective security) or Belarus (Russian puppet state where the president is effectively an employee of Putin) I guarantee 9 out of 10 will chose the path Poland has taken.

What amazes me is China are replacing Russia as the dominant power in Central Asia right now. They're doing it by building shitloads of infrastructure, opening up trade. In exchange China are getting political influence, cheap natural resources.

If Russia is to survive as a state it needs to drastically change the way it behaves on the international stage to something like what the Chinese do. Nobody can take a state like Russia seriously which simply invades & attacks any state that doesn't want to be controlled by it.

 

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And what exactly would be the issue with this? The facts were joining was not on the agenda at the time and hasn't been until the Ukranian constitution was amended to allow it in 2019.

It was 'on the agenda', you're just using your specific definition

Please explain the process behind Russia being the successor state to the USSR.

USSR centre was Moscow, so was the Russian Federation. The bulk of the population of the USSR was in the Russian federation. Not exactly 200IQ thoughts here

Did Russia reapply to join the UN after the USSR was dissolved? All other newly formed states from former dissolved states had to do this (Yugoslavia, Czekoslovakia etc).

The Soviet Union was a charter member of the United Nations and one of five permanent members of the Security Council. Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, its UN seat was transferred to the Russian Federation, the successor state of the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_and_the_United_Nations

I honestly don't get why you are arguing this point, but this applies to most of your posting

Not true, all of the major enterprises became state owned by Ukraine. Look at the success of Antonov for example, much better than the shambles that Russian manufacturers have become post USSR.

They built planes? Whats this got to do with nukes?

The US wanted security & stability in the region that would be provided by an absolute guarantee by Russia to not attack or invade Ukraine who did not want to give up their weapons.

Yeh, security and stability from some two bit newly independent state with thousands of nukes. Are you pro proliferation?

This has proven to be a colossal mistake as it is proven that Russia is not a trustworthy power and cannot be relied upon as a security partner. The fact is the US would not have agreed to this if it was known how Russia would behave in 20-30 years time.

I bet they would have, probably approved of a Russian invasion if Ukraine refused

No one can be trusted in geopolitics, that's the first step. Libya and Iraq got invaded after abandoning nuclear programs, does this prove the US is not a trustworthy security partner? Yep

No they didn't, this is a lie and you are aware that this is a lie. We can only guess why you continue to post proven pro Russian falsehoods.

I'm tired boss, i've linked all the articles before, cbf

There was US interference, it helped Russia get its hands on Ukraine's weapons and as a result has allowed Russia to invade / attack Ukraine. For once, you get something right.

Thanks mate

Russia didn't develop nuclear technology either, it's also all legacy soviet tech. The so called Russian federation has only existed since 1991 and many constituent republics did not agree with being absorbed into the Russian federation either.

Ukraine does have enrichment facilities also

Energoatom sends first batch of Ukrainian-mined uranium to Canada

The first batch of uranium mined at the Eastern Mining and Enrichment Plant in Ukraine has been sent to Canada where it will be converted into natural uranium hexafluoride as part of the company's agreement with Cameco.;

www.world-nuclear-news.org

For nuclear power my dude. It's a few percent for power, 90+% for bombs. Why do you think everyone is tracking Iran's % enrichment level

Russian Federation didn't exist until 1991. It has proven to be less than reliable as a security partner, that's obvious even to the most ardent of tankies like yourself.

Well they haven't launched a nuke yet, which was my argument. 'Security partner'? You'd be really annoying in meetings

As opposed to Russia which had a total economic meltdown in 1998 due to not being able to meet its obligations to post Soviet states in Central Asia.

Still didn't launch a nuke

The same Russia that is now isolated as a pariah state. Banned from countless international associations. We can all agree that the US convincing Ukranians to hand over their military tech in the Budapest agreement was a mistake that has directly lead to Russia invading Ukraine for the reasons of expanding Putin's empire.

I mean BRICS just met (with half the worlds population under them) and the UN sec gen rocked up. Is that a pariah state?

What's specific about applying to join NATO? You either do or you dont. Did Russia "join" NATO because they asked about joining in the early 2000s? No is the answer of course.

I think this was a troll tbh. But I'd say it's when NATO says yes you are on the pathway to joining

Ukraine has made no such application until September 2022 and this was only brought upon your nation invading Ukraine and Putin acting like a fascist madman.

More Russian lies. The 2008 war started when Russian troops attacked Georgian villages.

Nope, not according to the EU

https://www.reuters.com/article/wor...r-with-russia-eu-backed-report-idUSTRE58T4MO/
An independent report blamed Georgia on Wednesday for starting last year's five-day war with Russia

Tranistria is illegally occupied by Russia, as is Crimea. You know this, we know this.

Same as Ukraine.

Self determination ends where Russia begins it would appear

 

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More nonsense. Russia was a NATO security partner right up until 2020. There is nothing about NATO that is anti Russian unless you count peace & security for member states not being subjugated by Russian aggression /' empire expansion as against Russia.

Why was NATO formed? Think man, think

I'm sure you've read many scripts about Putin's rants on his dream of a new "Great Russian" empire.


That empire isn't going to include Ukraine, never will again. Putin has ensured for many generations that Ukraine will not be a Russian puppet state again, nothing is surer.

Well I'd say the bits Russia currently controls will be

And who can blame the Ukranians? If I were to choose between living in somewhere like Poland (EU integration, democracy, collective security) or Belarus (Russian puppet state where the president is effectively an employee of Putin) I guarantee 9 out of 10 will chose the path Poland has taken.

I'd think 10/10 would prefer not to die

What amazes me is China are replacing Russia as the dominant power in Central Asia right now. They're doing it by building shitloads of infrastructure, opening up trade. In exchange China are getting political influence, cheap natural resources.

Yes, why does that amaze you?

If Russia is to survive as a state it needs to drastically change the way it behaves on the international stage to something like what the Chinese do. Nobody can take a state like Russia seriously which simply invades & attacks any state that doesn't want to be controlled by it.

BRICS summit went well, China-India border dispute has been taken off the boil, Russia still not collapsed from economic sanctions. Going alright I'd have thought