Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

Not a single person here has ever claimed there is not an element of Neo-Nazism in Ukraine. But it's insignificantly diluted in reality, much like it is here in Australia.

How do you know?

 

[Baldur]

Yeah, Russia is basically a combo of the worst and most right wing aspects of Australia and the US but loved by cooked gen xers who still identify as lefties for whatever reason.

I think its projected self-hatred, they hate themselves, most likely for good reason. But rather than admitting this they project this hate onto the societies they live in. The societies opposed to the societies they live in then become objects of uncritical love.

 

[jatz14]

Very good post Ferball.

You are absolutely right in pointing out the horrible hypocricy that reigns on this thread with all those here who (rightly) condemn Putin as a criminal dictator, but fail to notice that Biden and NATO support Israel's genocide in the Middle East.

Yet somehow they want us to believe that Zelensky, Biden and US/NATO are the 'good guys'

And you are absolutely correct in your description of Ukraine: the Zelensky regime is not a democracy, but is a police state which has cancelled elections, banned all left wing political opposition parties, and imprisons anyone who opposes the war.

As your comments also illustrate, it is based on xenophobia (primarily anti Russian), but also anti-Roma.

Another bonkers take from the usual.

First, these are unrelated events, either would have occurred regardless of the other.
Second, reactions to events in the middle east have no bearing on events in Ukraine. Your attempt to link the 2 is merely an admission you have no valid arguments.
Third, all people are immoral to some degree, this doesn't invalidate any good they do. I judge American participation in Ukraine by events in Ukraine, how good or evil they are elsewhere is entirely irrelevant.
Even if Zelensky is a criminal, this neither invalidates his efforts to defend Ukraine, nor justifies the invasion. Putin is clearly a criminal, yet you never bring that up to criticise Russia, nor justify actions against Russia.
I do not mention Israel in this thread, so you assume, in that vacuous info free way you have, what I and others must think. The Israel government, like the Russian government, is a war criminal, and like the Russian government, should be stopped. That America is helping stop Russia is good, that it's doing little if anything to stop Israel is bad. It, and we, should do more, in both case.

I do not talk about it here, because this is the thread discussing Russian crimes, and the international attempt to curtail them.

What you are doing, blatantly, pathetically, uselessly, is taking 2 different events, and trying to draw some equivalence between them, in order to use 1 event to make arguments in the other event, because you cannot mount a coherent argument otherwise.


You have tried to paint Ukraine and the US as evil in fighting of Russian aggression, and that this evil justifies supporting a war of aggression, and it hasn't worked.

So now you switch to Israel. It's ok to oppose Ukraine defending itself because Israel is bad. Ukraine shouldn't get military help, because Israel is. Zelenski is bad, because Putin said he is, or more accurately, Zelenski is bad because American mouthpieces paid by Putin, said he is, so Russia should win the war.

It's pathetic.

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[IlovethePies]

Second, reactions to events in the middle east have no bearing on events in Ukraine. Your attempt to link the 2 is merely an admission you have no valid arguments.

And this is where you are utterly wrong. Events in the Middle East are totally interconnected with the events in Ukraine. They are part of the same war, in which US imperialism is tobogganing to disaster as it tries to redivide the world in its own interests.

Russia has a presence in both Syria and Iran. The US is attempting to subordinate the Middle East to its control, via its proxy Israel.

Russia is an impediment. Hence, war against Iran is completely related to breaking Russia's hold in the Middle East.

...and the dismemberment of Russia is a fundamental goal of US/NATO imperialism. So anything that weakens Russia is gold coin for US imperialism.

The war in Ukraine is not really going to plan for US/NATO. The Ukrainian army is being bled white, and the front is moving in favour of Russia.

So the US is now hell bent on opening up a new front, by giving Israel the green light to launch an attack on Iran.

You need to stop thinking of the world as a set of unrelated events, confined to limited geographical spaces.

Such thinking belongs to a different period of history.

Today, the world is totally interconnected economically, socially and politically. Every major event, anywhere in the world, has repercussions and consequences across the globe.

Events in Ukraine (identified by key US imperialist strategists as a pivot point in Eurasia) are totally bound up with events in the Middle East (a key geostrategic region due to its resources, and geographical proximity to both Russia and Europe.

If you reject this, then you have no hope of cognising anything in contemporary reality.

 

[IlovethePies]

Even if Zelensky is a criminal, this neither invalidates his efforts to defend Ukraine, nor justifies the invasion. Putin is clearly a criminal, yet you never bring that up to criticise Russia, nor justify actions against Russia.
I do not mention Israel in this thread, so you assume, in that vacuous info free way you have, what I and others must think. The Israel government, like the Russian government, is a war criminal, and like the Russian government, should be stopped. That America is helping stop Russia is good, that it's doing little if anything to stop Israel is bad. It, and we, should do more, in both case.



On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

I don't assume anything about what you think in relation to Israel. I mention Israel solely to point out that the US and NATO - who support Netanyahu - simultaneously support Zelensky.

So on the one hand, as you yourself have just admitted, the US government is supporting the war criminals in Tel Aviv. Yet you want us to think that the US has noble intentions in supporting Zelensky?

You said: "Even if Zelensky is a criminal, this neither invalidates his efforts to defend Ukraine, nor justifies the invasion"

Certainly, Zelensky's criminality does not justify Putin's invasion, because as I have said in a previous post, Putin is just as much a criminal as Zelensky.

However, how can you glibly say that even if Zelensky is a criminal, it is OK to support his efforts to "defend Ukraine" If he is a criminal, then perhaps it is necessary to analyse what this war is about, rather than just give him your uncritical support?

 

[Blue1980]

Another bonkers take from the usual.

First, these are unrelated events, either would have occurred regardless of the other.
Second, reactions to events in the middle east have no bearing on events in Ukraine. Your attempt to link the 2 is merely an admission you have no valid arguments.
Third, all people are immoral to some degree, this doesn't invalidate any good they do. I judge American participation in Ukraine by events in Ukraine, how good or evil they are elsewhere is entirely irrelevant.
Even if Zelensky is a criminal, this neither invalidates his efforts to defend Ukraine, nor justifies the invasion. Putin is clearly a criminal, yet you never bring that up to criticise Russia, nor justify actions against Russia.
I do not mention Israel in this thread, so you assume, in that vacuous info free way you have, what I and others must think. The Israel government, like the Russian government, is a war criminal, and like the Russian government, should be stopped. That America is helping stop Russia is good, that it's doing little if anything to stop Israel is bad. It, and we, should do more, in both case.

I do not talk about it here, because this is the thread discussing Russian crimes, and the international attempt to curtail them.

What you are doing, blatantly, pathetically, uselessly, is taking 2 different events, and trying to draw some equivalence between them, in order to use 1 event to make arguments in the other event, because you cannot mount a coherent argument otherwise.


You have tried to paint Ukraine and the US as evil in fighting of Russian aggression, and that this evil justifies supporting a war of aggression, and it hasn't worked.

So now you switch to Israel. It's ok to oppose Ukraine defending itself because Israel is bad. Ukraine shouldn't get military help, because Israel is. Zelenski is bad, because Putin said he is, or more accurately, Zelenski is bad because American mouthpieces paid by Putin, said he is, so Russia should win the war.

It's pathetic.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

The idea Ukraine needs to be a perfect victim is insane.

They were invaded for no good reason by Russia, end of story.

Zelensky has to back the US, I hate what Israel are doing and what America are doing to support it, but wtf would Zelensky slag off his biggest ally in defending themselves against Russia?

The Nazi shit in Ukraine is BS, the US has a Nazi problem and might be under a guy who will give them free will to do as the please in a couple of weeks, maybe Russia should invade them too. (Instead of just sowing seeds of its destruction via misinformation)

 

[barreness]

This was a nice litmus test of how you would respond. The stuff about invading Belarus was sarcastic, there is no justification for any NATO state to invade Belarus.

Belarus is happy being a vatnik state right now, nobody is going to change that apart from the people themselves if they ever decide they've had enough of Lukashenko effectively acting as an employee of Putin.

The people of Ukraine have for a long time wanted Ukraine rid of Russian opporession & subjugation. Not the US, not the EU. The people of Ukraine. I can see this doesn't sit well with you so the way that you deal with it (and identically how Putin & co deal with it) is to blame it on the US.

It is so obvious.

Some of the country wanted the Nationalists in charge some didn't, the nation was split. After the success of Euromaidan and the ascension of the US's hand picked leaders there were counter protests in Crimea and the south eastern oblasts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters), between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while between 42% and 50% opposed it.[298][299][300] The biggest support for the protest was found in Kyiv (about 75%) and western Ukraine (more than 80%).[298][301] Among Euromaidan protesters, 55% were from the west of the country, with 24% from central Ukraine and 21% from the east.

 

[barreness]

No they did not apply in 2004. This isn't true. They became a security partner and declared eventually they would like to join NATO. That should come as no surprise - former communist bloc states that joined NATO have fared much better than Ukraine in almost all areas and the people of Ukraine have for a long time in a majority wanted to be part of Europe.

"Declared eventually they would like to", that my man in trying to join NATO

They didn't give 3000 nukes back, these were never the possessions of the so called Russian federation.

They were soviet nukes, the Russian federation was the successor state to the USSR, this really isn't debated by anyone

They were theirs and Ukraine were much more reluctant to turn them over than other states like Kazakhstan. Remembering many of these weapons were manufactured in Ukraine including the authorisation systems Ukraine had the means to adapt them to their own needs. They gave them up only because the US encouraged them to on the guarantee that Russia would not invade Ukraine and/or respect its territorial integrity. As well as nukes cruise & ballsitic missiles were transferred, TU160 bombers. This absolutely was a mistake in hindsight.

The rocket industry was based in Ukraine, staffed by scientists and engineers from all over the Soviet Union. They lost most of the industrial capacity and knowledge when the Union was disbanded, I wonder why?

So you agree both Russia and the US(nor anyone sane) didn't want Ukraine with a shitload of nukes? It's pretty obvious why they stationed them there, proximity to other nuclear armed states in western europe

Are the nukes stationed in Turkey Turkish? or are they US nukes? Could they launch them if idk Iran invaded them?

Back to debunked US conspiracy theories again. You obviously can not accept the fact that Ukraine does not want to be a puppet state of Russia anymore and that this was the choice of the people and the government, not the US.

Sure, there was a significant grass roots protest movement, the US also hand picked the leaders.

If there was no US interference I'd guess the Russian response would have been different

Ukraine has one of the most advanced nuclear industries in the world. All of the above it could easily manage if required to.

Lol, no they don't. It's all legacy soviet tech, Ukraine as an independent state hasn't built a reactor, they sold their highly enriched stockpile for more fuel rods because they have no enrichment facilities

As did the structure of Ukraine. Tell us how the structure of the so called Russian federation in the mid 90s was any different to the structure of Ukraine at the same time. Russia was more rife with corruption than anything with USSR era oligarchs using their contacts to buy state assets for next to nothing, eventually selling them back to the state for a huge profit (eg Roman Abramovich)/

Because Russia had proven to be a safe pair of hands over the last 50 odd years in not launching a nuke, as the succesor state to the USSR and with the leadership structure still based in Moscow the US (and anyone sane) thought those bombs were better in the hands of the Russians

The decision to arm Russia with Ukranian security assets absolutely was the wrong decision in every way. Russia is clearly an unstable state after the break up of the USSR with too much power vested in those who have connections from the USSR era.

Ah yes the nation with two revolutions in the last 2 decades were clearly the right option for world destroying munitions

What happened in 2022 was that Ukraine actually applied to join NATO for the first time. Considering the events of the 100% unjustified fascist Putin invasion of Ukraine this has to be the least surprising news of all time.

Sure, when we use your very specific criteria

More likely that the Independent People's Republics of Bryansk, Kursk & Belgorod return back to Ukranian rule after they were illegally transferred in the early USSR days along with Smolensk, Checyhna & Dagestan denazifying themselves out of the so called Russian federation.

So Georgia attacking their autonomous regions was a crime and Transnistria should get self govt right? Crimea held an election and joined Russia yes?

This is silly, we all know Russia isn't giving up land