Review Bad/Ugly vs Fremantle, R5 2020

[hey shorty]

My point is we didn't carry either - take even 50% of their contribution out of today's performance and we would not have been anywhere near Fremantle.

Statistics tell part of a story.

Last week Brad was statistically inferior yet played a better game.

 

[Scorpus]

5 tackles for Matt and 4 for Brad - so again, #1 and #3 today (McAdam also had 5). Also 17 handballs and 13 again respectively (next best was Doedee with 11).

I'm sure there will be a sh*t handball or three in that but take even those out and they are still ahead of the rest whilst laying more tackles than 90% of the side.

Adam Cerra + Andrew Brayshaw

40 disposals
46 pressure acts
10 tackles
7 score involvements
8 inside 50s
600+ meters gained
9 turnovers
85% DE

Matt + Brad Crouch

55 disposals
24 pressure acts
9 tackles
5 score involvements
7 inside 50s
570 meters gained
11 turnovers
71% DE

Beaten by two 40 game players

 

[Dewy006]

My point is we didn't carry either - take even 50% of their contribution out of today's performance and we would not have been anywhere near Fremantle.

Jesus, were we watching the same game?

Take them both out of the game and we don’t start them in the middle at the beginning of the last, and thus don’t lose the ensuing 4 clearances.

Take them out of the game and we remove Matt constantly demanding the ball from teammates despite being in a much worse position. We remove Brad from constantly giving it to Matt in a much worse position.

We remove the fact that Matt provides zero effort defensively and is often the last player seen jogging lazily from a stoppage whilst his direct opponent sprints forward.

We remove the fact they are soaking up crucial midfield minutes that should be going to other players we need to develop.

 

[StonesThrow]

I think the benefit of not watching a game live is that you can watch it without emotion especially towards the end of the game.

Thoughts:

I'll break it down into senior and junior players.

Senior:

Matt and Brad Crouch are not bad footballers and they didn't have bad games today (Brad made a couple of real howlers). They're decent but the problem is that they are also our best midfielders, which is a real concern. In a good team they would be very handy players. They're also now in a team that is devoid of any structure and confidence. Matt's biggest flaw is his pace and Brad's is his composure. I would say that Matt is superior as he has more composure and can hit targets more often. I would prefer to keep Matt but I'm getting worried that Brad will not even net us that much anymore.

Tex cannot play in this current team. Would be handy in a team that can kick to a forwards advantage even 25% of the time. Still a smart and talented footballer but cannot chase, jump or mark in a pack and when your team mates give you that sort of service, there is no room for you. Sorry big fella.

Laird actually played okay imo. He's still a shadow of his former self though and would be of no loss imo.

Talia solid as ever. Need him to stick around as long as possible.

Sloane looks to have lost the feel for the game. Is now on the wing, which I was an advocate for, but he is not getting involved enough. Unfortunate as he has his long term deal and it the captain.

Lynch I would keep despite his brain fades. I think our forward line is going to be horrendous apart from FOG in the next couple of years and Lynch still knows how to get on the end of the football. He at least tries to create and be dangerous. We can't get rid of all of our experiences players with our current coaching panel.

Smith also needs to stay. He still has it. Looks to be one of the few who really tries to get things moving in a team that is really shot. That's a sign of leadership imo. Was looking a bit desperate today but who can blame him.

Hartigan can stay while McAsey develops. Think McAsey has really struggled so far to the point where it can only be damaging. Hartigan can at least create a contest and there is no one else to come in. I'm not a big fan of Butts from what I have seen (haven't seen heaps). Played alright today.

Brown does a lockdown job every week and does it well. Not damaging offensively but I've accepted that.

Kelly is still a depth player but gets a pass considering the state of our 22.

Junior:

Doedee is our next captain IMO and soon. Composed and skilled.

I've said this from the start even when he was getting 7 possessions, but I think Jones really has something. Has some real pace and in time I think will be a classy little player. His decision making is increasingly improving. I think next year once he has some more strength and time around the ball, could push to be our best midfielder. I'm not sure why he's not kept around the ball though.

McHenry is one i'm not so sure on. Happy to keep playing him but I haven't a lot apart from intent.

ROB (still junior as he has actually played **** all) is still learning. Had one blinder earlier in the year which led me to think he'd win our bnf. Since then has found it tough. Today he was better. Still think he will be a very good first choice ruckman going forward but I also think he needs to work on his lower half strength as he gets out bodied too easily in the ruck for a guy that looks pretty big up top.

Murphy obviously not up to it.

Keayes had his best game. Has shown improvement, which I didn't think he had in him. Think he deserves more game time.

McAdam looked much better in his second game. He at least provides a point of difference.

Hamill VERY good for a skinny guy in his third game. As others have said this is the biggest outcome of the game for the club. Here we have a guy who is doing the opposite of the rest of the team (apart from Smith and Doedee) in being composed and taking the game on and it was his third game! Pretty crazy when you think about it. Has booked his place for the rest of the year. Has a lot of tools to be a very good player. Good find!

Frampton looks to me like a real nothing player and another depth player. Could be wrong.

Crocker meh. Not the worst but nothing to get excited about.

 

[ltdamn]

Statistics tell part of a story.

Last week Brad was statistically inferior yet played a better game.

Of course he played a better game last week. Matt Crouch didn't play. Stats-wise, he was hardly inferior - Brad again lead us for I50s with 5, and was second only to Smith with 427 meters gained.

Both Matt and Brad are amongst our leading players for I50s, centre clearances, all up clearances, contested possessions and metres gained so far this year.

Where they fall down in the stats is disposal efficiency - because 50% of Brad's and nearly the same for Matt are contested possessions, and they have a higher volume of overall possessions than anyone else in our team.

Blaming them for our form is like blaming the engine on the Titanic for hitting the iceberg.

 

[ltdamn]

Adam Cerra + Andrew Brayshaw

40 disposals
46 pressure acts
10 tackles
7 score involvements
8 inside 50s
600+ meters gained
9 turnovers
85% DE

Matt + Brad Crouch

55 disposals
24 pressure acts
9 tackles
5 score involvements
7 inside 50s
570 meters gained
11 turnovers
71% DE

Beaten by two 40 game players

Aside from pressure acts, I'm not sure what you think that proves?

Matt + Brad Crouch
Tackles in F50: 4
Clearances: 10
Centre Clearances: 3

Adam Cerra + Andrew Brayshaw
Tackles in F50: 2
Clearances: 4
Centre Clearances: 0

David Mundy was by far Fremantle's most damaging midfielder today. He had 7 clearances and 6 of those out of the centre.

 

[Eigot]

The Good : Pick 1 locked up tight, the list of required senior players continues to shrink.

ugly Murphy and M crouch would rather have 3 votes than crouch right now

 

[ltdamn]

Jesus, were we watching the same game?

Take them both out of the game and we don’t start them in the middle at the beginning of the last, and thus don’t lose the ensuing 4 clearances.

Take them out of the game and we remove Matt constantly demanding the ball from teammates despite being in a much worse position. We remove Brad from constantly giving it to Matt in a much worse position.

We remove the fact that Matt provides zero effort defensively and is often the last player seen jogging lazily from a stoppage whilst his direct opponent sprints forward.

We remove the fact they are soaking up crucial midfield minutes that should be going to other players we need to develop.

I think I put it pretty clear above, if you take them out of today's game you take out 3 of the 5 centre clearances we had, and 10 of the 25 overall clearances. We don't need less Crouch, we need more quality around them so they aren't our premier midfield assets. It's like saying we had a shit forward line in the mid 2000's because Scott Welsh didn't take enough hangers and kick a ton. They're not Brownlow medallists FFS, they are good players who are in a shithouse team and would be guns in a better side, but we are not bad because of them, far from it. There are a multitude of reasons we are bad, and taking out both Crouch brothers would be the fastest way to ensure we win this wooden spoon and probably the next one as well.

 

[Scorpus]

Aside from pressure acts, I'm not sure what you think that proves?

Matt + Brad Crouch
Tackles in F50: 4
Clearances: 10
Centre Clearances: 3

Adam Cerra + Andrew Brayshaw
Tackles in F50: 2
Clearances: 4
Centre Clearances: 0

David Mundy was by far Fremantle's most damaging midfielder today. He had 7 clearances and 6 of those out of the centre.

Brad and Matt are supposed to be our best midfielders. They were beaten by Fremantle's second and third string mids, who are third year players, for overall game impact from fewer touches.

It highlights how inefficient the Crouch brothers are and how they compare to sub 50 gamers.

So when you throw Mundy on top, it's no surprise we were beaten.

If you get the ball 55 times collectively I would expect more than 5 score involvements. Neale and Lyons in the Brisbane game had 11 from 55 touches as well as 750 meters gained, 11 clearances, 10 inside 50s and 32 pressure acts. That's what your top 2 mids should be doing with 50+ touches

 

[Scorpus]

I think I put it pretty clear above, if you take them out of today's game you take out 3 of the 5 centre clearances we had, and 10 of the 25 overall clearances. We don't need less Crouch, we need more quality around them so they aren't our premier midfield assets. It's like saying we had a sh*t forward line in the mid 2000's because Scott Welsh didn't take enough hangers and kick a ton. They're not Brownlow medallists FFS, they are good players who are in a shithouse team and would be guns in a better side but we are not bad because of them, far from it.

When you take two players out of the midfield you don't remove their contribution and replace it with nothing. Two other blokes step up.

 

[ltdamn]

When you take two players out of the midfield you don't remove their contribution and replace it with nothing. Two other blokes step up.

Who? Gibbs? If there's two other players on our list right now that can contribute that much of our overall midfield clearances, I50s, and contested possessions, then I am by all means in favour of trading out both Crouches and bringing them in. The fact is we have traded out any depth that we could replace them with over the years, including Lyons who was a clearance machine, because none of them were better than the Crouches and wouldn't displace them from our side.

 

[skam85]

Once we build a quality inside midfield Hamill could be that quality outside, running receiver. He looks promising.

it’s a sad indictment that Seed and Smith should be looking to him as to how they should be playing

 

[douglyzia]

Is it just me, or does anyone find it kind of ironic/humorous when commentators try to suggest we're desperate for a win when I, personally, can't be bothered and would actually be happy with the #1 draft pick?

At this stage, I just look for some signs (false hope?) that some of the younger players could be a part of the future.

 

[Miss Vanessa]

Aside from pressure acts, I'm not sure what you think that proves?

Matt + Brad Crouch
Tackles in F50: 4
Clearances: 10
Centre Clearances: 3

Adam Cerra + Andrew Brayshaw
Tackles in F50: 2
Clearances: 4
Centre Clearances: 0

David Mundy was by far Fremantle's most damaging midfielder today. He had 7 clearances and 6 of those out of the centre.

Brad Crouch had 28 touches. That’s good.
He turned the ball over 8 times. That’s bad.
Brad Crouch led us for possessions and had a team high 4 inside 50s. That’s good.
He had 3 score involvements. That’s bad.

We need Brad and Matt Crouch to work as as footballers, and their best is great. But today their ball use was terrible and they did very little that was remotely damaging. Unfortunately, this has been true all year.

 

[Sidthehat]

I didn't th

I think the benefit of not watching a game live is that you can watch it without emotion especially towards the end of the game.

Thoughts:

I'll break it down into senior and junior players.

Senior:

Matt and Brad Crouch are not bad footballers and they didn't have bad games today (Brad made a couple of real howlers). They're decent but the problem is that they are also our best midfielders, which is a real concern. In a good team they would be very handy players. They're also now in a team that is devoid of any structure and confidence. Matt's biggest flaw is his pace and Brad's is his composure. I would say that Matt is superior as he has more composure and can hit targets more often. I would prefer to keep Matt but I'm getting worried that Brad will not even net us that much anymore.

Tex cannot play in this current team. Would be handy in a team that can kick to a forwards advantage even 25% of the time. Still a smart and talented footballer but cannot chase, jump or mark in a pack and when your team mates give you that sort of service, there is no room for you. Sorry big fella.

Laird actually played okay imo. He's still a shadow of his former self though and would be of no loss imo.

Talia solid as ever. Need him to stick around as long as possible.

Sloane looks to have lost the feel for the game. Is now on the wing, which I was an advocate for, but he is not getting involved enough. Unfortunate as he has his long term deal and it the captain.

Lynch I would keep despite his brain fades. I think our forward line is going to be horrendous apart from FOG in the next couple of years and Lynch still knows how to get on the end of the football. He at least tries to create and be dangerous. We can't get rid of all of our experiences players with our current coaching panel.

Smith also needs to stay. He still has it. Looks to be one of the few who really tries to get things moving in a team that is really shot. That's a sign of leadership imo. Was looking a bit desperate today but who can blame him.

Hartigan can stay while McAsey develops. Think McAsey has really struggled so far to the point where it can only be damaging. Hartigan can at least create a contest and there is no one else to come in. I'm not a big fan of Butts from what I have seen (haven't seen heaps). Played alright today.

Brown does a lockdown job every week and does it well. Not damaging offensively but I've accepted that.

Kelly is still a depth player but gets a pass considering the state of our 22.

Junior:

Doedee is our next captain IMO and soon. Composed and skilled.

I've said this from the start even when he was getting 7 possessions, but I think Jones really has something. Has some real pace and in time I think will be a classy little player. His decision making is increasingly improving. I think next year once he has some more strength and time around the ball, could push to be our best midfielder. I'm not sure why he's not kept around the ball though.

McHenry is one i'm not so sure on. Happy to keep playing him but I haven't a lot apart from intent.

ROB (still junior as he has actually played fu** all) is still learning. Had one blinder earlier in the year which led me to think he'd win our bnf. Since then has found it tough. Today he was better. Still think he will be a very good first choice ruckman going forward but I also think he needs to work on his lower half strength as he gets out bodied too easily in the ruck for a guy that looks pretty big up top.

Murphy obviously not up to it.

Keayes had his best game. Has shown improvement, which I didn't think he had in him. Think he deserves more game time.

McAdam looked much better in his second game. He at least provides a point of difference.

Hamill VERY good for a skinny guy in his third game. As others have said this is the biggest outcome of the game for the club. Here we have a guy who is doing the opposite of the rest of the team (apart from Smith and Doedee) in being composed and taking the game on and it was his third game! Pretty crazy when you think about it. Has booked his place for the rest of the year. Has a lot of tools to be a very good player. Good find!

Frampton looks to me like a real nothing player and another depth player. Could be wrong.

Crocker meh. Not the worst but nothing to get excited about.

Agree with most of this. Think Lynch's late screw ups ruined a pretty solid game otherwise and would much rather him playing next year than text. Think are a little unfair on Frampton he competed better than he has and field kicking solid too. Would trade Laird and Mrouch.

 

[GreyCrow]

I think I put it pretty clear above, if you take them out of today's game you take out 3 of the 5 centre clearances we had, and 10 of the 25 overall clearances.

This is a fairly bland statement but it fails because they are stats in isolation

How do you know no other pair would get similar or better? Because we wont ever know

I would like to see the stats the brothers gave to each other

 

[Ravenous Crow]

Having just watched the game -

I am amazed that we lost. Our skills, ball movement and conversion were atrocious but there were long stretches where Fremantle could barely keep possession of the ball even when it was being force fed back to them. They're quite possibly even worse than us so maybe we're thieving the #1 pick here. Silver linings etc etc.

I'm just so worried about Jones and McHenry in comparison to their draft class. Jones absolutely should not get a pass on games like today. Little glimpses of pace in traffic does not make up for extremely low overall output and sloppy disposal the few times he does get it. And McHenry just hasn't shown signs of anything resembling first round talent; as much as this board doesn't like Murphy he's not that much older than McHenry and is playing the same type of game but better.

Hamill just on eye test looks like he could end up being our best get out of the super draft.

 

[StonesThrow]

Who? Gibbs? If there's two other players on our list right now that can contribute that much of our overall midfield clearances, I50s, and contested possessions, then I am by all means in favour of trading out both Crouches and bringing them in. The fact is we have traded out any depth that we could replace them with over the years, including Lyons who was a clearance machine, because none of them were better than the Crouches and wouldn't displace them from our side.

It's a pretty unpopular opinion at the moment to say that the Crouches shouldn't face a firing squad. They're decent, but not very damaging players in a team with a very poor midfield considering Sloane has fallen off a cliff.

 

[Scorpus]

Who? Gibbs? If there's two other players on our list right now that can contribute that much of our overall midfield clearances, I50s, and contested possessions, then I am by all means in favour of trading out both Crouches and bringing them in. The fact is we have traded out any depth that we could replace them with over the years, including Lyons who was a clearance machine, because none of them were better than the Crouches and wouldn't displace them from our side.

Matt Crouch this week

27 disposals (11 contested)
4 clearances
2 score involvements
15 pressure acts
194 meters gained
3 inside 50s
3 turnovers
0 goals
67% DE

Jones last week

11 disposals (7 contested)
3 clearances
4 score involvements
9 pressure acts
69 meters gained
0 inside 50s
2 turnovers
1 goal
73% DE

From Jones playing one quarter as a midfielder last week he nearly matched Matt's entire output from this week.

 

[Mutineer]

Who? Gibbs? If there's two other players on our list right now that can contribute that much of our overall midfield clearances, I50s, and contested possessions, then I am by all means in favour of trading out both Crouches and bringing them in. The fact is we have traded out any depth that we could replace them with over the years, including Lyons who was a clearance machine, because none of them were better than the Crouches and wouldn't displace them from our side.

These guys are obviously clueless, wouldn't be worrying about them if I was you.
Brayshaw Pick 2
Adam Cerra pick 5

Yeah they're real 2nd and 3rd stringers........My ass. Someone tell them they're only 2nd and 3rd stringers because a dual Brownlow Medalist is their No.1 Mid.....both already outstanding footballers.

 

[ltdamn]

Matt Crouch this week

27 disposals (11 contested)
4 clearances
2 score involvements
15 pressure acts
194 meters gained
3 inside 50s
3 turnovers
0 goals
67% DE

Jones last week

11 disposals (7 contested)
3 clearances
4 score involvements
9 pressure acts
69 meters gained
0 inside 50s
2 turnovers
1 goal
73% DE

From Jones playing one quarter as a midfielder last week he nearly matched Matt's entire output from this week.

How did he go this week? One day, no doubt he will be better than one or both of them. But he is not there yet. Your sample size of one quarter is too small to hold up the point you are making right now, but it might be in a year or two.

 

[StonesThrow]

Having just watched the game -

I am amazed that we lost. Our skills, ball movement and conversion were atrocious but there were long stretches where Fremantle could barely keep possession of the ball even when it was being force fed back to them. They're quite possibly even worse than us so maybe we're thieving the #1 pick here. Silver linings etc etc.

I'm just so worried about Jones and McHenry in comparison to their draft class. Jones absolutely should not get a pass on games like today. Little glimpses of pace in traffic does not make up for extremely low overall output and sloppy disposal the few times he does get it. And McHenry just hasn't shown signs of anything resembling first round talent; as much as this board doesn't like Murphy he's not that much older than McHenry and is playing the same type of game but better.

Hamill just on eye test looks like he could end up being our best get out of the super draft.

Unless I'm blind, Jones is doesn't spend much time around the ball. Had one poor pass today but overall hard to fault. Strength is his biggest constraint atm. Agree on McHenry though.

 

[skam85]

These guys are obviously clueless, wouldn't be worrying about them if I was you.
Brayshaw Pick 2
Adam Cerra pick 5

Yeah they're real 2nd and 3rd stringers........My ass. Someone tell them they're only 2nd and 3rd stringers because a dual Brownlow Medalist is their No.1 Mid.....both already outstanding footballers.

Matt and Brad have played more than twice the amount of games than Cerra and Brayshaw and were towelled up. That was the point

 

[Scorpus]

How did he go this week? One day, no doubt he will be better than one or both of them. But he is not there yet. Your sample size of one quarter is too small to hold up the point you are making right now, but it might be in a year or two.

You said who would we replace him with? Well last week when Matt wasn't playing we replaced him with Jones for part of the game. And yet their output was similar aside from Matt's uncontested ball.

This week it's no surprise that Jones had less impact on the game because we replaced his output with Matt

 

[ltdamn]

This is a fairly bland statement but it fails because they are stats in isolation

How do you know no other pair would get similar or better? Because we wont ever know

I would like to see the stats the brothers gave to each other

Your logic is sound but falls down when you try to identify those other two players on our list. Gibbs was brought in to compliment them but doesn't look like he will play again this year, and after that, who contributes that level of output? Knight? Galluci? Seedsman? Mackay? Atkins?