Confirmed Bailey Smith: 4-way trade: B. Smith (WB) & pick 45 to Geel / pick 38 to Carl / Macrae (WB) to StK / pick 17 & Kennedy (Carl) to WB

[Iago]

Of which there was clearly no influence from the nature of his and his managements from Geelong.

We're being driven to believe that Geelong broke no rules in terms of tampering in how they're allowed to talk to players, the and the negotiations were nothing but Geelong offering terms of a contract, stating and intention to trade and confirming the fact that if they don't trade for him, they will have to let the draft play out.

We weren't born yesterday

If the draft was able top operate effectively and Smith didn't tamper to the fact that he should be willing to equally play at any club that drafts him, should he not want to be at the Dogs, given that he hasn't reached free agent rights, if the Dogs don't want to accept Geelong's trade offer, than the equilibrium point should be much closer to his actual value.

Because in theory there should be a much higher chance of any club drafting him before Geelong's first pick, because he's a good enough player to be worth that pick, so if purely on player value vs. draft pick value, Smith would never reach the very pick that Geelong are offering up in the trade. St Kilda would much rather Smith with a top 10 pick than the relativley large possibility of drafting another Hunter Clark or Nick Coffield with the equivalent pick.

I don't remember, how did Alex Keath get from the Crows to the Bulldogs? And did he purchase any property anywhere near Whitten Oval? Did every club in Victoria have an opportunity to trade for him or did he nominate for the Dogs?
Is it not a given that all clubs talk to players throughout the year in terms of targeting them for trades?

 

[LeppaMessiah]

This is getting dangerously close to a breach of international human rights law if this deal doesn’t get done soon.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

A world that another club drafts him?

So not the real one then?

 

[threenewpadlocks]

So not the real one then?

So we're circling back.

In theory, he has to be avaliable to all clubs in a draft because he's not a free agent
In practical terms, he can go to where he wants

The difference between the theory and the practical terms is where the Cats as a big club are wedging the Dogs as a small club, which is both unfair in a general sense of unfairness as well as resulting in the AFL's broader draft/free agency compensation/salary cap list management principles being ineffective/

 

[theiaofseed]

So not the real one then?

You sure about that?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Richmond St Kilda Essendon GWS

I'd be extremely confident none of them take him

 

[CatToTheFuture]

You sure about that?

About 99%

 

[threenewpadlocks]

17 is not a trash pick like that’s trying to sell

And Bailey Smith isn't some dud player that won't return to his pre-ACL form.

 

[WillHayward]

Are the Dogs the new Bombers?

They seem intent on over complicating things and trying to act tough and waste everyone's time.

 

[Pencil case]

Are the Dogs the new Bombers?

They seem intent on over complicating things and trying to act tough and waste everyone's time.

Yeah you’re right, we should just give away all our players for nothing.

Sam Darcy would look good at Sydney, would your future fourth get it done while we’re at it?

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I don't remember, how did Alex Keath get from the Crows to the Bulldogs?

Dogs paid a future second and pick 45 at the time, an amount that the Crows were happy with given the uncertainty of whether he would continue his his form that he had only demonstrated for one season, having only played 30 career AFL games at the time that we recruited him

I don't remember, how did Alex Keath get from the Crows to the Bulldogs? And did he purchase any property anywhere near Whitten Oval?

No, he didnt

Did every club in Victoria have an opportunity to trade for him or did he nominate for the Dogs?

Yes.

Dogs were understanding that they had to pay an appropriate amount that the draft picks(s) could represent the contract amount to the player.

I don't think you understand that we weren't actually offering Keath that much money when he moved over, so it didn't represent a highly valuable player.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Are the Dogs the new Bombers?

They seem intent on over complicating things and trying to act tough and waste everyone's time.

Where are Adelaide getting 17 from??

Dawson worth pick 8 to 12 imo.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

So we're circling back.

In theory, he has to be avaliable to all clubs in a draft because he's not a free agent
In practical terms, he can go to where he wants

The difference between the theory and the practical terms is where the Cats as a big club are wedging the Dogs as a small club, which is both unfair in a general sense of unfairness as well as resulting in the AFL's broader draft/free agency compensation/salary cap list management principles being ineffective/

The reason Geelong can “wedge” him is that he is out of contract.
Bulldogs have had YEARS to manage and nurture their relationship with Smith but have failed to do so.

That’s either a failure of the club, or an indication that they’ve had enough and think they’ll be better off without him.

Whichever it is, THAT is what has weakened their bargaining position. Not anything nefarious.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Are the Dogs the new Bombers?

They seem intent on over complicating things and trying to act tough and waste everyone's time.

I don't think it's the dogs, they haven't really been doing the talking. Their fans have

 

[threenewpadlocks]

The reason Geelong can “wedge” him is that he is out of contract.

And theoretically Geelong have no rights to recruit a non-free agent, non-out of contract player, unless he happens to be drafted by Geelong.

Dogs still have the right to decide to either accept a trade (in which Geelong and Smith have to also agree on a contract), or accept that he's out of contract and send him to the draft, with all possibilities, including theoretically Dogs redrafting him, as part of that process.

Smith is entitled to request a trade to Geelong but it is just that - a request. There is no rules-based manner in which he's entitled to be at Geelong.

Bulldogs have had YEARS to manage and nurture their relationship with Smith but have failed to do so.

I'm not suggesting for a second that Smith doesn't have a right to have a preference to not re-sign with the Dogs at the time that he comes out of contract.

But as part of that decision making process not to resign with the Dogs, is to, in theory, means that if his preferred club of choice can't convince the Dogs of a trade, he has to go to whatever club drafts him and there's no in theory legal position for him to avoid that.

Whichever it is, THAT is what has weakened their bargaining position. Not anything nefarious.

But the point remains was if he was truly committed to accepting that he would give 100% effort to whatever club drafted him, the equilibrium point would be much more favourable to the Dogs.

• The Dogs get something in a trade if they trade him. There is an interest in getting something more than the draft.
• If the Dogs don't trade him, in theory, he would go much earlier than pick 17 in the national draft, because his output is more likely to be better than pick 16 (or higher) in the draft.
• Cats' current offer is pick 17 alone.
• There would be a middle ground between the two as an equilibrium if there was genuine threat that the Cats wouldn't be able to draft him with the pick they were offering.

 

[WillHayward]

Other clubs need to stop rolling over to please Geelong's shenanigans.

This cotton on thing is taken for granted and it shouldn't be.

The bloke can still work for cotton on and play at another club.

Geelong are clearly doing something off the books and there is still something very suspicious about the pick 7/Bowes thing last season that needs scrutiny.

Saints should offer pick 8 to Dogs imo.

 

[Turbo911]

And Bailey Smith isn't some dud player that won't return to his pre-ACL form.

No one 100% knows or can guarantee that. Chance is it should be fine but the fine print would have disclaimers on that



If there were 2 identical cars & one had an engine rebuild & one is fine - would you expect to pay full price for the one that did an engine?

Yeah it’s been rebuilt & could be fine but there is also a chance it may have an issue

 

[Turbo911]

Other clubs need to stop rolling over to please Geelong's shenanigans.

This cotton on thing is taken for granted and it shouldn't be.

The bloke can still work for cotton on and play at another club.

Geelong are clearly doing something off the books and there is still something very suspicious about the pick 7/Bowes thing last season that needs scrutiny.

Saints should offer pick 8 to Dogs imo.

Would bringing back the COLA make things better for you?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

The bloke can still work for cotton on and play at another club.

In fact he is. Like right now. For literal years. No change to the agreement but suddenly people care.

It's a review of the agreement annually by the AFL with a view that is something changes materially from the Dogs agreement then it'll suddenly find itself in the cap.

 

[Doggies7]

Are the Dogs the new Bombers?

They seem intent on over complicating things and trying to act tough and waste everyone's time.

Other clubs need to stop rolling over to please Geelong's shenanigans.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

And theoretically Geelong have no rights to recruit a non-free agent, non-out of contract player, unless he happens to be drafted by Geelong.

Dogs still have the right to decide to either accept a trade (in which Geelong and Smith have to also agree on a contract), or accept that he's out of contract and send him to the draft, with all possibilities, including theoretically Dogs redrafting him, as part of that process.

Smith is entitled to request a trade to Geelong but it is just that - a request. There is no rules-based manner in which he's entitled to be at Geelong.

I'm not suggesting for a second that Smith doesn't have a right to have a preference to not re-sign with the Dogs at the time that he comes out of contract.

But as part of that decision making process not to resign with the Dogs, is to, in theory, means that if his preferred club of choice can't convince the Dogs of a trade, he has to go to whatever club drafts him and there's no in theory legal position for him to avoid that.

But the point remains was if he was truly committed to accepting that he would give 100% effort to whatever club drafted him, the equilibrium point would be much more favourable to the Dogs.

• The Dogs get something in a trade if they trade him. There is an interest in getting something more than the draft.
• If the Dogs don't trade him, in theory, he would go much earlier than pick 17 in the national draft, because his output is more likely to be better than pick 16 (or higher) in the draft.
• Cats' current offer is pick 17 alone.
• There would be a middle ground between the two as an equilibrium if there was genuine threat that the Cats wouldn't be able to draft him with the pick they were offering.

I’m not saying Geelong has any “right” to him. They’re simply negotiating with the dogs in the hope of getting him.

Dogs are free to hold out and send him to the draft. That’s an option. Right now though it seems they’re okay to let him move to Geelong, but are haggling over the price. That’s their prerogative.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

No one 100% knows or can guarantee that. Chance is it should be fine but the fine print would have disclaimers on that



If there were 2 identical cars & one had an engine rebuild & one is fine - would you expect to pay full price for the one that did an engine?

Yeah it’s been rebuilt & could be fine but there is also a chance it may have an issue

Ashcroft just won a Norm Smith with not only coming off an ACL but not being able to do a pre-season before being thrown back into AFL play.

If the ACL was such a concern that would have been a consideration in the amount of money you were paying him.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I’m not saying Geelong has any “right” to him. They’re simply negotiating with the dogs in the hope of getting him.

Dogs are free to hold out and send him to the draft. That’s an option. Right now though it seems they’re okay to let him move to Geelong, but are haggling over the price. That’s their prerogative.

That's fine. We can agree on that.

But if the understanding is that Smith would find his way to Geelong as part of the draft anyway, it means that the discussion of him theoretically being available to draft by all clubs is all academic, Smith is manipulating and tampering with the in-theory fairness of a draft process as there is a reason that other clubs are being dissuaded from drafting him.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

That's fine. We can agree on that.

But if the understanding is that Smith would find his way to Geelong as part of the draft anyway, it means that the discussion of him theoretically being available to draft by all clubs is all academic, Smith is manipulating and tampering with the in-theory fairness of a draft process as there is a reason that other clubs are being dissuaded from drafting him.

I might be misremembering, but didn’t he also use that tactic to get to the dogs in the first place? And isn’t it a fairly routine happening these days?
Esava wanted Port, we dealt with Port. Jordan Clark wanted Freo, we dealt with Freo. Tim Kelly wanted WC, we dealt with WC.

 

[WillHayward]

Man I love IASIP.

But I can hold two seemingly incongruous ideas simultaneously when they aren't actually incongruous.

Dogs faffing around over Macrae.

Cats seem to think they entitled to some very questionable deals.