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- Sep 13, 2024
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Max Holmes is a very average footballer, not a fair comparison.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Confirmed Bailey Smith: 4-way trade: B. Smith (WB) & pick 45 to Geel / pick 38 to Carl / Macrae (WB) to StK / pick 17 & Kennedy (Carl) to WB
- Thread starter Pleasedontfail11
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Max Holmes is a very average footballer, not a fair comparison.
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
I agree with this.
This is untrue.
MLB and NFL both have compensation systems
MLB even forces the acquiring team to forfeit draft picks to when they recruit free agents.
This idea that players can "freely walk" is also untrue. NBA has rules that provided a team is willing to match the salary being offered by a different club, they're forced to stay. For instance, Dangerfield and Cameron would be compelled to stay with Adelaide and GWS because their clubs matched Geelong's salary.
But all leagues have mechanisms which give priority to the drafting club when a player remains out of contract, or otherwise stronger ties to a drafting club other than a three-year (formerly two) contract with no other protections.
- MLB teams have control of their players for six years, provided they're put on their 40-man roster (ie if they're still stuck in the minor leagues, they have to be among your best 15 or so minor league players, as rosters are 25 players deep)
- NBA teams can go over the salary cap to re-sign, or even match free agents, to players that they drafted ("Bird rights"). They can also offer more money and longer contracts for players they drafted than other teams can offer them, even if they come out of contract.
- NFL contracts give far more power to clubs in terms of being able to cut players. Also, the rules are incredibly complex, but you can prevent a player from leaving you by 'franchise tagging' them.
The comedy in all this is that Smith, with fewer years of service to the Dogs than if he was an eight-year free agent, would gather a better compensation pick than what Cats are currently offering. Dogs actually agree with you, but it also highlights how inadequate that Cats' trade offer is for trading for a player who, two years short of being a free agent, will (in theory) give two more years' service to the Cats than a Josh Battle or Harry Perryman type, who are two years closer to form dropping off or retirement.
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- Mar 19, 2020
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No doubt he would play the mental health card like a complete and utter tool
I think Geelongs getting too much blame here for the fact Bailey Smith is a complete and utter pencil of a human also. If he wants to leave, pick a club who can afford you as opposed to one who is nowhere near it
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- #4,954
restraint of trade type court case, similar to the bosman case. the afl are desperate to avoid 'free' moves because it would break the equalisation of the draft and FA compensation
Bosman ruling - Wikipedia
The AFL have a loophole though, i'm fairly sure the players have an agreement with the league too that mitigates this risk somewhat.
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
The same AFLPA that agrees with the AFL's legitimate interest in restraint of trade that they operate a national draft, and literal 17 year olds might be expected to move across the country?
AFLPA are on record for saying a lot of things, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have a legal leg to stand on, the AFL's interest in competitive balance is legitimate and protects them from restraint of trade. You can make similar legal arguments about free agency only being avaliable after eight years of a career.
RFA exists in many other sports. In the big 4 US Leagues there is RFA
- Mar 19, 2020
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As if Geelong is going to sue the AFL. The people who give them 30 mill pr year and have full rights to change that.restraint of trade type court case, similar to the bosman case. the afl are desperate to avoid 'free' moves because it would break the equalisation of the draft and FA compensation
Bosman ruling - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The AFL have a loophole though, i'm fairly sure the players have an agreement with the league too that mitigates this risk somewhat.
No different to someone in China trying to sue the CCP. Sure, give it a try but good luck with it
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
I cannot believe how Geelong fans love throwing around "restraint of trade" and "he's out of contract" as if it actually means something.
An 18 year old finally being old enough to play in an adult league, is also, at one point in time, an out-of-contract player that is having their trade restrianed by being forced to go through a national draft.
If some sort of rules prevent free movement of Bailey Smith, why isn't there some sort of rules that prevent literally every player who nominated the national draft this year that might have a preference to play for one club over another?
Or even still, Harley Reid is earning far less money for the first three years of his career than if he was willing to play for the club that was going to offer him the most money and best contract this time last year. How is that also not restraint of trade? Of course North or whoever would have offered him a 10 year contract with $1 million guaranteed per year. How is the fact that Harley Reid not earning that unfair to Harley Reid?
An 18 year old finally being old enough to play in an adult league, is also, at one point in time, an out-of-contract player that is having their trade restrianed by being forced to go through a national draft.
If some sort of rules prevent free movement of Bailey Smith, why isn't there some sort of rules that prevent literally every player who nominated the national draft this year that might have a preference to play for one club over another?
Or even still, Harley Reid is earning far less money for the first three years of his career than if he was willing to play for the club that was going to offer him the most money and best contract this time last year. How is that also not restraint of trade? Of course North or whoever would have offered him a 10 year contract with $1 million guaranteed per year. How is the fact that Harley Reid not earning that unfair to Harley Reid?
- Jun 19, 2006
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Smith 19 coaches votes. Holmes 73. These are not comparable seasons.
- Apr 5, 2016
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We did have a contract on offer for Bailey though?
"Restraint of trade" is classic BF Trade Week bingo.
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
Jazz match $63M offer sheet for Hayward
The Utah Jazz have retained Gordon Hayward after matching the Charlotte Hornets' four-year, $63 million offer sheet to the restricted free agent, according to multiple media reports.
What are we doing here if Geelong fans can't even get basic facts right?
Eh, there you go. Turns out we copied everything in the NFL/NBA except the trash talking.Jazz match $63M offer sheet for Hayward
The Utah Jazz have retained Gordon Hayward after matching the Charlotte Hornets' four-year, $63 million offer sheet to the restricted free agent, according to multiple media reports.www.espn.com
What are we doing here if Geelong fans can't even get basic facts right?
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
and even the NBA's rules are more onerous. They're more concerned about a player just getting the money that some club, somewhre, in the league is willing to pay him.
When GWS and Adelaide matched Geelong's contract amount, Cameron and Dangerfield players weren't then under the automatic control for an identical contract. All it meant that they weren't able to freely move and had to be traded for or go through the draft (as is the case with Smith).
If people want to copy the American rules of all players who are out of contract are also free agents, they also have to copy over the greater team-control rules that that bring along with it, like matched free agents literally then being "forced" to sign a contract with the team that matched them, as is the case with the above example.
- Apr 5, 2016
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I've not once said Max Holmes didn't deserve his best and fairest, nor did I say Bailey Smith had a better year, clearly Holmes had a better season. The comparison was more so around the languages used to describe Smiths form in 2023. He very clearly wasn't mediocre.
- Mar 19, 2020
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Oh yes. The AFL will certainly see it that way for sure.....
You don't have to copy this or that wholesale, you can always pick and choose.
If it were my say-so, I'd make draftee contracts longer for top-20 and top-40 draftees, move FA compo between draft rounds, and make any player a FA at the end of any contract.
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- #4,970
it would be smith suing WB and the AFL for not allowing him to leave when out of contract - the AFL and the AFLPA don't want that to happen, they'll do everything they can behind the scenes to avoid it. Geelong have no standing.
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
The "fracturing" of Smith and Dogs' relationship is entirely Smith's doing. The Dogs have been nothing but supportive in allowing him to develop as a player and rehab his knee. Your argument is that this pushes down Smith's trade value, but why? The Dogs did nothing wrong, they shouldn't be willing to accept a lesser trade haul because of it.
Bevo doesn't have a toxic relationship with any of his players, lol, or at the very least, no more than an average coach and an average amount of players. You've literally just made this up.
Again, any relationship between Smith and Bevo is entirely Smith's doing.
To literally take Smith through to free agency. It is literally Bailey Smith's preferred contract among all of the Dogs' contracted offers to only have two years. Dogs would also like to offer Bailey Smith a five year deal. We improved our own contract to our own club's detriment and to Bailey Smith's benefit by offering him a short-term contract that would literally mean that he could freely move clubs as a free agent the first year that he was eligible, lining up the two dates.
The fact that Geelong fans have pretended the above fact doesn't exist continues to perplex.
How is this a fundamentally different point to the fact that the Dogs were the one that was willing to pull the trigger on drafting Smith and then "turned him" into the player that Geelong wanted to recruit six years later? It's impossible to know how good of a player that Smith would have been outside of the Dogs, but the idea that Geelong were the ones that turned Kelly into a star is no different an argument to be that the Dogs were the one that turned Smith into a player that Geelong would want to offer millions of dollars to win future football games.
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because there's precendent in the EU, it utterly changed how contracts work in professional sporting leagues including soccer, basketball, ice hocket and more.
Bosman ruling - Wikipedia
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
Right, so Geelong fans want to pick and choose the fact that players have complete freedom of movement, but not pick and choose the parts that give clubs more generous rules for retaining the talent that they correctly identify and develop through the draft.
I wonder why that is.
- Feb 11, 2011
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I’m sure this trade gets done.
But if it doesn’t, a team with 2 first round picks like a st kilda, Melbourne or Carlton would have to consider taking him in the draft.
You’d at the very least want to have a meeting.
But if it doesn’t, a team with 2 first round picks like a st kilda, Melbourne or Carlton would have to consider taking him in the draft.
You’d at the very least want to have a meeting.
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
Smith's form was patchy, kicking was poor, but he still had a clear, outright BOG performance in the 12th last game of footy in a winning team (Round 10 vs Adelaide), something that many other players in the league have never done in their career, let alone among the most recent 12 games that they have played.
No Dogs fan denies that he's patchy and inconsistent, but an inconsistent player who averages a certain output is worth more, because it's far easier to raise a person's floor and get them to play closer to their ceiling week-to-week, rather than find a consistent player but raise their ceiling and get them playing beyond a capability they've never demonstrated in the past.
All of this is exactly why Geelong are literally offering him the large contract they are, which seems to get lost in all this - we don't really need to debate how good or bad Smith is, because, the value of Geelong's contract does that for us. It literally cannot be true that Smith is a bad player yet worth his contract.
The same Geelong fans are trying to downplay his ability or expected future output, but not a single one of them is suggesting that Geelong are offering him far too generous a contract. In fact, it is being argued by Geelong fans that by virtue of the fact that Geelong are offering him the best contract among all 18 clubs, that he should be allowed to smoothly get to Geelong - suggesting that they are completely fine with Smith receiving that contract, a representation of how good of a player they expect him to be next year.
It's all utterly ridiculous, isn't it.
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