Don't think Jsos leaves, so if he stays, it won't be at the expense of Hewett or Kennedy
IMHO, both are locks best 22
IMHO, both are locks best 22
Rumour Bluemour Discussion XXXV - 'Loopy' Season has begun
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This. Fogarty isn’t in the side to do anything Dow is good at so I wouldn’t be changing him.
Also same with Walsh over Hollands, Walsh is a ball hunter and that isn’t what we need in Holland’s role. I don’t think Holland’s is safe but I wouldn’t have Walsh doing what he currently is, he is too good for that. I remember last year Isaac Smith talking about how some days playing on the wing you know you aren’t going to see hardly any of the ball because that’s not your role. People at times think he was in or out of form on how many touches he was getting but it often had absolutely nothing to do with form just the role he was expected to play
The Blue Weirdo
Premiership Player
But if either of George or Kennedy were injured, JSOS could be an adequate replacement(Jimm's point).(prefer him than Ed, who'll be gone any way)
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4flagsin5yrs
Premiership Player
Cripps, Walsh, Cerra
Hewett or Kennedy
Rotations of Doc, Cuners, Fog
Sure, Jack could play through the middle if required or a suitable match up presented itself
But Jim's real point is Kennedy is expendable, which I don't believe is factual, nor will he be let go in favour of Dow, which was also suggested
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Jack is a Free Agent.
He won't be requesting a trade. If he wants to go to another club, he just goes.
So Docherty is being rested and Dow is named in the starting 18.
Is the bench an indicator of who is probably going to make way come finals time?
I think the big question will be where Docherty plays. I think that will be the indicator of who goes out of the team once we hit full strength. Will it be back, onball or wing. If it's back then Cincotta goes out, if it's wing it's probably Hollands and if it's middle it's probably Dow.
As for this week's team I think the bench will be Fisher, Cincotta, Pittonet and Fogarty meaning Hollands Cuningham and Marchbank go out.
Form comes into the equation but my gut suggests that Cincotta will go out for Docherty in round 1 of finals and that will be our finals 22 however Dow, Cottrell or Fisher wouldn't want to have a down game either as Docherty can come back in and play half back, wing or on ball at a high level.
I think the final spot all comes down to Docherty. He plays three positions at elite level, he will replace whoever is out of form in one of those three spots.
As for Kennedy I think he will be on standby for the finals series should one of our heavy hitting mids go down.
Silvagni could be facing a similar prospect. Not getting through the VFL game was a big hit for him. Otherwise I think he replaces one of the rucks and he still might.
Be interesting to see whether we turn up for this game. Players are playing to keep form and keep their spots but could be more focused on finals. GWS are playing to stay in finals as a loss likely sees them bundled out.
If we lose this game we are most likely going to play GWS again the following week. Win this game and there is a good chance we play the Bulldogs. At a guess I think our finals series goes Bulldogs, Melbourne, Lions and either Port or Collingwood in the grand final. Should we make it that far. It's an interesting run, should beat the Bulldogs easily, have just beaten Melbourne, Lions up there looks the hardest of the lot and of course both Port and Collingwood are teams we have also beaten.
Our VFL side missing finals is a real kick in the guts, we really needed them in as well so that the returning players had a game to play in.
Is the bench an indicator of who is probably going to make way come finals time?
I think the big question will be where Docherty plays. I think that will be the indicator of who goes out of the team once we hit full strength. Will it be back, onball or wing. If it's back then Cincotta goes out, if it's wing it's probably Hollands and if it's middle it's probably Dow.
As for this week's team I think the bench will be Fisher, Cincotta, Pittonet and Fogarty meaning Hollands Cuningham and Marchbank go out.
Form comes into the equation but my gut suggests that Cincotta will go out for Docherty in round 1 of finals and that will be our finals 22 however Dow, Cottrell or Fisher wouldn't want to have a down game either as Docherty can come back in and play half back, wing or on ball at a high level.
I think the final spot all comes down to Docherty. He plays three positions at elite level, he will replace whoever is out of form in one of those three spots.
As for Kennedy I think he will be on standby for the finals series should one of our heavy hitting mids go down.
Silvagni could be facing a similar prospect. Not getting through the VFL game was a big hit for him. Otherwise I think he replaces one of the rucks and he still might.
Be interesting to see whether we turn up for this game. Players are playing to keep form and keep their spots but could be more focused on finals. GWS are playing to stay in finals as a loss likely sees them bundled out.
If we lose this game we are most likely going to play GWS again the following week. Win this game and there is a good chance we play the Bulldogs. At a guess I think our finals series goes Bulldogs, Melbourne, Lions and either Port or Collingwood in the grand final. Should we make it that far. It's an interesting run, should beat the Bulldogs easily, have just beaten Melbourne, Lions up there looks the hardest of the lot and of course both Port and Collingwood are teams we have also beaten.
Our VFL side missing finals is a real kick in the guts, we really needed them in as well so that the returning players had a game to play in.
This 100%. Exactly.
The Blue Weirdo
Premiership Player
I agree, don't want lose Kennedy, like to keep Dow too(but it seems unlikely)
I'm looking forward to seeing how the Cripps, George, Cerra, Walsh and Dow dynamic works this week, they all offer a point of difference.
The Blue Weirdo
Premiership Player
Nice artwork.
Our midfield is unbalanced if they're both in the 22 (along with Cripps, who is obviously a lock).
We will have to agree to disagree
Nope, Doc/Cunners/Fog produce nothing as mid fielders- Docs clangers/turnovers go thru the roof, Cunner/Fog don’t produce.
When all mids fit Doc isn’t in there - he’s an AA half back FFS.
Check the stats - I’m not making this up, it is very clearly established that they do very little during there rotation
Every player offers a point of difference
It comes back to deficiencies, namely defensively
As a collective, that areas has improved dramatically, and now one of our strengths
The rotations have been a big part of our improvement. Docherty has been really good in the middle, not sure about the clangers, he always has some and inside mids usually have more. Honestly, I think Docherty's best footy has been on the wing this season.
The stats aren't where our rotation mids bring value to the team. Cuningham and Fogarty go in there, they don't get much of it, they apply a bit of pressure but what they do is manage the other mid's workloads. They give our main mids a rest so they don't run out of gas and that's been a big part of the reason why we have been such a good finishing side after being such a poor finishing side.
Rotations are important for that reason. I was really critical of Voss for being a bit precious about who he allowed in the middle and not rotating enough. Then that all changed and then we turned around in a big way.
Would be good if our rotation mids had a bigger impact in there and list management wise, going forward this is an area we could look at but what they have brought is rotations and physical pressure which adds a fair bit to the side.
I'm interested in seeing how Dow goes with Cerra and Walsh in the side full time. That's a lot of run and break away speed around the stoppages. Form permitting that makes us really dangerous.
As for Docherty, he will come back either wing, back flank or middle, depending where the weaker option is.
4flagsin5yrs
Premiership Player
Never understood why it has to be Hewett OR Bam Bam.
They don't need to be on the field at the same time and moreover, GH can play HB, MK can play HF/FP.
And Kennedy isn't slow for the 1,000th time.....
(everbody is slow with a heavily interrupted pre season and ongoing injury - that's not Bam Bam any more...)
Noting speed of thought (aka footy nous) more than compensates for that 0.2 or 0.3 seconds difference over a (rather useless stat) of a straight line 20m.
As for the Kennedy, Cripps, Hewett Dilemma. They are all important to our team. Probably not going to see them in the same side too often but because they are all playing a physical role and getting injured often you will see them all regularly during the season.
These guys have played a lot of games they shouldn't have. Played with injuries, played sore. Well with all three going into next season that does not happen with all three fit which means you get to the end of the season in much better shape. Chances of at least one of the three being injured is also fairly high as we have seen.
I think also Kennedy could fill in for Jack Martin as well to a point.
You don't have to get rid of one off the list because they all don't fit into a make believe best 22. Hewett plays 15 games, Cripps plays 18 games, Kennedy plays 15 games for example. That is probably how 2024 looks for us. No different to how Andrew Russell had Hawthorn's starts rotating towards the end of their dynasty.
Same goes for our running mids. Dow, Cerra, Walsh and Docherty can play that hard running inside mid role. The game has changed to favor this sort of player now it's opened up so having more runners is good. Probably not going to see them all in the side playing the one role either. Docherty will get rested more as he is 30 years old next season and will play wing and half back more often. Dow will keep improving. Cerra and Walsh will be our main driving forces in there.
Structure is important. Don't want to be too tall or too short or too slow in defence, forward and midfield is the same. You can't be too quick.
These guys have played a lot of games they shouldn't have. Played with injuries, played sore. Well with all three going into next season that does not happen with all three fit which means you get to the end of the season in much better shape. Chances of at least one of the three being injured is also fairly high as we have seen.
I think also Kennedy could fill in for Jack Martin as well to a point.
You don't have to get rid of one off the list because they all don't fit into a make believe best 22. Hewett plays 15 games, Cripps plays 18 games, Kennedy plays 15 games for example. That is probably how 2024 looks for us. No different to how Andrew Russell had Hawthorn's starts rotating towards the end of their dynasty.
Same goes for our running mids. Dow, Cerra, Walsh and Docherty can play that hard running inside mid role. The game has changed to favor this sort of player now it's opened up so having more runners is good. Probably not going to see them all in the side playing the one role either. Docherty will get rested more as he is 30 years old next season and will play wing and half back more often. Dow will keep improving. Cerra and Walsh will be our main driving forces in there.
Structure is important. Don't want to be too tall or too short or too slow in defence, forward and midfield is the same. You can't be too quick.
Because it's unbalanced, and we get spread by the opposition.
If they're rotating with one always off, it limits our other rottations.
Can they really play those other roles? How often has Hewett played in our backline this year?
How often has Kennedy played forward. He did play back in a game or two. It did not go well.
That does not work because you are removing a player who is a very good half back (Saad, Fisher, Williams, Boyd etc) for a player who is a very good midfielder but not a very good half back. It's about team and that weakens us as a team.
You would not play 3+ Harry McKays up forward or 3+ Weitering's down back despite the fact they are really good because it would stuff the balance and make us too slow. Same in the middle.
Kennedy, Cripps and Hewett aren't treacle but they are slow. The agility, burst speed and end to end speed is a level below Walsh, Cerra, Dow and Docherty and that is the other thing too. Cripps, Hewett and Kennedy aren't two way runners. Not at a high level anyway. They generally stay more at home or run defensively. The do the distance but they don't do it at speed so when we get moving it quickly or the opposition get moving it quickly the ball gets past them a bit. When in the team, these guys get a licence to stay forward of the ball a bit more so that is an example of how having an unbalanced midfield stuffs our team defence.
It does also muck our rotations up a lot as well. We put ourselves in a situation where we nearly have to have one on the bench at all times. Can't really send any of them forward. It's been years since Kennedy went forward and had an impact.
The big thing is, we have had this huge winning streak and one of the changes is that Cripps, Kennedy and Hewett have not played a full game together in any of them.
Balance and structure in the midfield. Better forward pressure and faster defence has been the core changes in our improvement. More speed over the board as well.
I don't think playing players for the sake of it is the right thing to do. For the first time in nearly 40 years we are picking a team where a whole heap of really good players are going to miss out. Nothing we can do about that. Just pick the right team, a balanced and form team with fitness and touch.
This is the same situation Hawthorn had with Josh Kennedy.
We are starting to have these troubles because our list has become a premiership quality list. Where's Thy? Genuine depth!
JustaBattler
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Balance is just another word for putting a pretty dress on personal preference, bias or prejudice.
4flagsin5yrs
Premiership Player
No you're not removing a player and yes, of course it's horses for courses.
GH played at HB a lot at Sydney, with distinction.
Noting these days the lines between HB, mid, wing, HF are pretty blurred.
MK hasn't played forward this season - probably should have frankly. Hopefully will.
It's well know he's terrific overhead and a very good shot at goal (far better than JSOS by quite a margin).
Voss erred in playing him at HB earlier this season, that was daft.
Cripps very able to spend time forward too (big, big unit, tough match up).
I'd back GH or Bam Bam against Libba any day of the week in speed. No one ever blabs on about him being slow....
It's simply wrong to say the midfield is unbalanced with those three in the 22.
It's how they're used that is the key.
Not at all. It's the opposite.
Looking for the best 'team', not squeezing in players.
You're comparing a single player to a combination of players.
And I'm not sure that the Dogs are the gold standard for getting their midfield balance right this year.
I don’t disagree with rotations at all, it’s been a key. It’s the personnel I disagree with - centre rotations latest games
Doc 11-0, 8-1, 9-0, 18-1 46-2 - 4%
Cun 4-0 4-0 4-0 7-0 19-0 0%
Fog 4-1 2-0 4-1 10-2 20%
Yes they provide defensive pressure, but so would anyone else in that position.
Kills me when I see them line up at CB & the talk Doc that makes our mids better.
Amazing footballer but he is a liability at CB
Dow 6-3, 15-3, 15-4 6-3 (3/3 q4 last week) 56/14 25%
Hew 17-0, 18-1,15-1, 21-2 71/4 5.6%
Crippa 22-2, 18-1, 15-1, 16-2, 23-2 79/9 12.5%
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Flaggers_23
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First post - enjoying this discussion.
We tend to have one back/fwd/wing/mid rotation, obviously during the game players may pinch hit in different roles when required but since Voss took over that's what we have done.
7 Forwards
7 Defenders
3 Wings
4 Midfielders
Cripps, Cerra, Walsh are locks for the midfield. Hewett and Kennedy battle out for the fourth and final spot with Hewett getting the nod in my opinion given he is currently in form. Kennedy is the sub and Dow unfortunately misses out but hopefully the VFL plays finals so he can stay in form if required.
We tend to have one back/fwd/wing/mid rotation, obviously during the game players may pinch hit in different roles when required but since Voss took over that's what we have done.
7 Forwards
7 Defenders
3 Wings
4 Midfielders
Cripps, Cerra, Walsh are locks for the midfield. Hewett and Kennedy battle out for the fourth and final spot with Hewett getting the nod in my opinion given he is currently in form. Kennedy is the sub and Dow unfortunately misses out but hopefully the VFL plays finals so he can stay in form if required.
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