Rumour Bluemour Discussion XXXV - 'Loopy' Season has begun

[Soapy V]

Then we don’t have any assistants happy to challenge him on this or he doesn’t listen to or trust them.

If a coach is like this, what good are better assistants?

I don't know the answer.

All the comments to me from people involved are he is strong, very much has a plan/philosphy and sticks with it regardless. The game plan and key points never change. He backs his senior group 100% and won't change

That can be good or bad.

The question I have is does he adapt to changes in the game and even during a game? The Zorko "tag" on the weekend for me was another example of him ignoring the obvious. He sets them up and should have had someone on him. After the first qtr he should have done something

I remember the Pies game. At 3 qtr time we were well ahead and the only way they would come back was if Daicos turned the game. He did and NO one went near him. Why?

These are just some examples. Is it Voss or the whole coaching staff?

Voss will be coach next year. He has many good qualities.

My question is can he change and adapt and improve? The game moves on so fast these days. All year we have heard the same statements and key words that mean bugger all. I am told it's very similar behind doors.

Everything I see and listen to is about how the game is becoming more run and numbers, taking game on and hitting moving targets. We STILL bomb it long to a contest and it doens't change. We have not changed from a contested 1 on 1 style and going down the line etc. The 6-6-6, holding the ball interpretation and stand on mark have changed the game dramatically. Trying to make it a contested game for 4 quarters is near impossible now

There are strong rumours that many players are frustrated and don't believe in what we are doing. Every week, it's about toughness, defensive work and consistency. Yet, nothing seems to improve and we have gone backwards dramatically

My concern (and fear) is we may be ruining an opportunity. I still believe we have the players if used properly and we get the best out of them

 

[Soapy V]

Houston would be great in our system atm
he would run, catch up to our grouped together mids/wings, have no one leading up and when we turn it over it would be 25-35m deeper in (still to shallow for a decent forward entry) our forward half.

100% it gives us more time to defend the turn over!

FFS we need a big body full back & small forwards more than anything else, Houston is a great player but totally pointless the way we are playing & his age is concerning.

This is the KEY for me.

 

[BigFrizz36]

The concern is more how we get Houston. Saints will probably get pick 8 for Battle and offer that to Port and use 7 on a midfielder. Can't see Port being interested in our 1st or future 1st in comparison. Unless Houston nominates us and only us and is steadfast you'd have to have the Saints as favourites.

 

[skadoosh]

Does Houston have footy IQ or is he a long bomber?

 

[Soapy V]

The concern is more how we get Houston. Saints will probably get pick 8 for Battle and offer that to Port and use 7 on a midfielder. Can't see Port being interested in our 1st or future 1st in comparison. Unless Houston nominates us and only us and is steadfast you'd have to have the Saints as favourites.

I undertand both sides. Houston is a gun and will help us straight away. No doubt

Issue I have is AFL is not about ONE player. Even less so these days
We need a KPD, small forward & more run

He will cost us around 2 x first round picks which could be TWO 10 year plus guns and restrict our SC to get more players or even sign TDK? He is 28 so while he can play for anotehr 5 years the reality is he will have 2-3 years maximum at his highest level

What is better?
Houston or 2 x first round kids and signing another Elijah type plus having ability to bring in a FA or 2 next year?

It's an all in now strategy IMO. If we did it you would want a Flag in next 2 years

 

[Accidental genius]

Does Houston have footy IQ or is he a long bomber?

We will turn him into a long bomber and he will like it ...

 

[Earls Smother]

Houston would be great in our system atm
he would run, catch up to our grouped together mids/wings, have no one leading up and when we turn it over it would be 25-35m deeper in (still to shallow for a decent forward entry) our forward half.

100% it gives us more time to defend the turn over!

FFS we need a big body full back & small forwards more than anything else, Houston is a great player but totally pointless the way we are playing & his age is concerning.

Its possible we will continue to shit the bed, we need to err on the side of youth not an older player, u always have to plan for the next window while trying to get thru the one that’s open now.

So a player that adds something we need, shouldn't be considered because the rest of the team ahead of him on the ground are shit?

Our running half backs are a real weakness compared to say Whitfield, Ash, and Cumming. Collingwood's running backline has been the key for them.

If we had our pick of any player we wanted, then fine, we wouldn't choose Houston. He wants to come, he fills a need, we try to get it done. People would have said why get Pearce, Clape and Manton in '95 to add to a shithouse ageing team.

 

[myblueroan]

I don't know the answer.

All the comments to me to people involved are he is strong, very much has a plan/philosphy and sticks with it regardless. The game plan and key points never change. He backs his senior group 100% and won't change

That can be good or bad.

The question I have is does he adapt to changes in the game and even during a game? The Zorko "tag" on the weekend for me was another example of him ignoring the obvious. He sets them up and should have had someone on him. After the first qtr he should have done something

I remember the Pies game. At 3 qtr time we were well ahead and the only way they would come back was if Daicos turned the game. He did and NO one went near him. Why?

These are just some examples

Voss will be coach next year. He has many good qualities.

My question is can he change and adapt and improve? All year we have heard the same statements and key words that mean bugger all. I am told it's very similar behind doors.

Everything I see and listen to is about how the game is becoming more run and numbers, taking game on and hitting moving targets. We have not changed from a contested 1 on 1 style and going down the line etc

There are strong rumours that many players are frustrated and don't believe in what we are doing. Every week, it's about toughness, defensive work and consistency. Yet, nothing seems to improve and we have gone backwards dramatically

My concern (and fear) is we may be ruining an opportunity. I still believe we have the players if used properly and we get the best out of them

Huge fear for many of us Soapy.

It's a stoic brand. I rarely want to watch a replay of us..and even then it's only the 1 or 1 and a half q' where we find flow and speed. It's reeally not that enjoyable as a brand to watch.
We are slow to respond tactically..if at all. Frustrating!! Players used poorly o.o.p. is bewildering at times.
Forwards coaching is underwhelming at best.
Coaches all very comfortable with themselves? Head of football sounds like he needs some learnings.

.

 

[Blue Pulse]

Unless there is a tweak to the game plan, we could get in whoever and it won't make a difference

It's not just a lack of bravery to take the inside kick...

It's a lack of movement, they literally provide nothing far more often than not. They gravitate to the wing and then pretty much hold their place...

We just don't spread well enough when we have possession and that saps confidence and incentive to look inside. Some times, they do try to take the inside kick... but the target is surrounded by opposition players so it requires an absolute pin point kick... not sustainable.

Exactly what we need is not Houston, rather, a big change up to our midfield mix... we have no goal kicking mids and too much reliance on Cripps - a problem that has existed for what feels like forever...

Bingo, unless we tweak our game plan and move away slightly from the crash and bash pressure game, it won't matter who we get in. Two big forwards who are unable to lead into space more than 4 times a game, small crumbing forwards who don't kick goals. A kick out from goal plan that doesn't involve just kicking long to a contest.

 

[Ninja Worrier]

How the * do the saints get pick 8 for battle, what a * joke

 

[Soapy V]

Huge fear for many of us Soapy.

It's a stoic brand. I rarely want to watch a replay of us..and even then it's only the 1 or 1 and a half q' where we find flow and speed. It's reeally not that enjoyable as a brand to watch.
We are slow to respond tactically..if at all. Frustrating!! Players used poorly o.o.p. is bewildering at times.
Forwards coaching is underwhelming at best.
Coaches all very comfortable with themselves? Head of football sounds like he needs some learnings.

.

Good point. We are hard to watch. It's ugly

As I have said I thought last two games against WCE & St Kilda were our best games. We ran, had energy and everyone was involved. Players looked better and happier and we played good football.

This is why I am not yet criticising many players. Remember after WCE how many were saying how good Durdin is? IMO he has the ability but like all our small forwards but doesn't have a chance the way we play

Then for the final we went back to what has failed. I really struggle to understand it

 

[bradfisher14]

Still waiting for the Bluemours...

 

[Blue Pulse]

I don't know the answer.

All the comments to me from people involved are he is strong, very much has a plan/philosphy and sticks with it regardless. The game plan and key points never change. He backs his senior group 100% and won't change

That can be good or bad.

The question I have is does he adapt to changes in the game and even during a game? The Zorko "tag" on the weekend for me was another example of him ignoring the obvious. He sets them up and should have had someone on him. After the first qtr he should have done something

I remember the Pies game. At 3 qtr time we were well ahead and the only way they would come back was if Daicos turned the game. He did and NO one went near him. Why?

These are just some examples

Voss will be coach next year. He has many good qualities.

My question is can he change and adapt and improve? The game moves on so fast these dyas. All year we have heard the same statements and key words that mean bugger all. I am told it's very similar behind doors.

Everything I see and listen to is about how the game is becoming more run and numbers, taking game on and hitting moving targets. We STILL bomb it long to a contest and it doens't change. We have not changed from a contested 1 on 1 style and going down the line etc. The 6-6-6, holding the ball interpretation and stand on mark have changed the game dramatically. Trying to make it a contested game for 4 quarters is near impossible now

There are strong rumours that many players are frustrated and don't believe in what we are doing. Every week, it's about toughness, defensive work and consistency. Yet, nothing seems to improve and we have gone backwards dramatically

My concern (and fear) is we may be ruining an opportunity. I still believe we have the players if used properly and we get the best out of them

Hard to argue any of this Soapy, some of the on field moves or non moves would get an amateur coach in trouble. With regards to the players being frustrated, it appears that way the way they are going about it. Frustrated or burnt out, one of the two, hence why the young players coming in from the VFL added a bit of Zing to the side

 

[myblueroan]

It's not just a lack of bravery to take the inside kick...

It's a lack of movement, they literally provide nothing far more often than not. They gravitate to the wing and then pretty much hold their place...

We just don't spread well enough when we have possession and that saps confidence and incentive to look inside. Some times, they do try to take the inside kick... but the target is surrounded by opposition players so it requires an absolute pin point kick... not sustainable.

Exactly what we need is not Houston, rather, a big change up to our midfield mix... we have no goal kicking mids and too much reliance on Cripps - a problem that has existed for what feels like forever...

I like this but for me it's midfield and.

 

[Accidental genius]

I think one of our main issues is the way we play in the middle part of the ground (between the arcs) going both ways.

Its hard to know if it is the players or how they are instructed to play.

When oppo rebound we get caught out big time when they spread. We cant cover and defend well enough so the ball goes into our d50 at a rate of knots and our defenders look terrible.

When we are transitioning out of our d50 I feel our mid/wingers all congregate to one wing/boundary line and this makes it so much easier for the oppo defenders to cover our players.

We need to spread more into space and provide more options for our ball carriers out of d50...make their decision making a lot easier...otherwise they are prone to making errors and this can lead to more turnover.

The next issue our mids have is when they do get the ball between the arcs the next phase of kicking into f50 is also an issue...still not sure if this is a lack of movement from the forwards or our mids/wingers preferring to bomb it long and hope for the best...

If we fix these issues I think we have enough skillful half backs to kick accurately to a player in space.

So in a nutshell less about getting stars on big coin like houston and more about fixing how we play or perhaps we need better wingers/mids rather than half backs ?

I cant believe I am giving away all this free advice...whilst our coaching group collect their huge pay packets every fortnight.

 

[Coops93]

Elite ball user off HBF? We have those...

Saad
Newman
McGovern
Boyd

The idea that we already have elite kicking half backs so don't need him is kind of hilarious considering one of our biggest weaknesses for years has been inability to transition the ball from defence to attack. Houston is on another world to any of those guys.

Saad isn't the elite kick we make him out to be, he very often takes the dinky 20m sideways kick, contrary to his run his kicking is actually not very aggressive at all. It's kind of funny hearing the WOOF calls as he kicks a dainty 17m kick on the 45.

Newman is a good kick, not elite, and can make the odd really bad decision. Not knocking him, I like him, he's just not on Houstons level.

McGovern similar to Newman. I think on basic efficiency stats it looks very good, but 2nd level stats show it's not really. For example, kicks over 40m are labelled effective kicks and he does kick long a lot so that'll make the efficiency look amazing.

Boyd is interesting, early in the season he was the no.1 kick, but then fell away quickly. I think he's probably close to as good of a kick, but his decision making and field vision don't allow full access to his raw skill.

That's where Houston separates himself from anyone on our list, not only is he an elite kick, he sees the field better than anyone else and has the decision making to know what to try and pull off - and 90% of the time he does.

 

[Soapy V]

The idea that we already have elite kicking half backs so don't need him is kind of hilarious considering one of our biggest weaknesses for years has been inability to transition the ball from defence to attack. Houston is on another world to any of those guys.

My question is, is it ability or game style?

IMO at their best Saad, Boyd, Docherty, McGovern, Weitering are all very good ball users if used properly. Cowan is a very good kick, as is Cincotta and Wilson.

I am not sure Hawks defenders are elite kicks but the way they run and turn defence into attack seems to breed confidence and trust

When we have the ball we look up and see no options and just bomb it down the line

 

[Pablito]

How the * do the saints get pick 8 for battle, what a * joke

Where'd you hear this? Not reported anywhere

 

[Beyond Blue]

The concern is more how we get Houston. Saints will probably get pick 8 for Battle and offer that to Port and use 7 on a midfielder. Can't see Port being interested in our 1st or future 1st in comparison. Unless Houston nominates us and only us and is steadfast you'd have to have the Saints as favourites.

Houston will either get to Carlton or stay at Port IMO. A few weeks back when it was mentioned in the media that the Saints were interested he quickly came out and said he was committed to Port.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

What does Lukosius cost? He’s a bloody good kick of the footy and a good size (195cm)

Just reading an article on Smith - no way he goes anywhere but Geelong.

He already a brand ambassador for Cotton On & given his social media status & clothing range (shit as it may be) they could justify paying him hundreds of thousands more for a very long time.
Precedent is there and they could argue market value all day long - they pay nobody’s with no real skill a fortune for their social media reach - he can actually do something well & has reach.

Agree, it will be hard to argue the marketing component because he already has a deal but they still need to pay market rate within the salary cap


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Stamos]

Where'd you hear this? Not reported anywhere

Nowhere.
It won't be decided until they submit the contract.
Pretty unlikely to be Band 1 by all media reports.

 

[Coops93]

Daisy Thomas, Mitch Mcgovern, Zac Williams, Adam Cerra. Only Saad has been a success & justifies a first rounder. Even if we swap pick 11 for a 2nd rounder coming back

Thomas was probably a mistake but did get cruelled by injuries his first couple years with us, easy in hindsight but at the time he was arguably a top 10 player, a whiff but not sure it broke us in any way and was perhaps justifiable as we were looking to push into premiership contention. Williams I'll agree was a mistake though, hopefully his small forward form continues, and we get some value late but it's not looking great overall.

McGovern was 2x 2nd rounders. Has he paid that off? Probably. What value to do you really get for kids in the mid 20s-30s? The strike rate is quite low, based on pure numbers the trade is a definite win.

Cerra was a 21 yr old mid coming off a career best year and we only gave up 1x first round pick and a future 3rd. If anything, that deal was decent value considering he was a 2x top 5 BnF finisher, including a top 3, at that young age. Was our best player last season until late. Up until this yr was trending towards being a great get.

Of the 4 you named there the 2 free agents are busts but the draft pick trades have been successes.

We have seen this type of trade as the solution for 20 years. It does not work. Look, how Sydney, Geelong, Hawthorn mainly recruit role players for needs & they don't pay this type of salary or first rounders
Grundy 2nd Rounder and Pick 46
Ollie Henry - pick 25
Jack Bowes - paid to take.

Sydney invested in Buddy Franklin on a bigger contract than we've ever given anyone. Before that they heavily overinvested in Kurt Tippett who was on their books for years after he left. They also have an academy so access to value players that are better than those around them is a regular occurrence.

Geelong took on Dangerfield for 2x first round picks and a lot of $. They also paid 3x first round picks for Jeremy Cameron. Are they big names? Possibly 2 of the 3 biggest name moves in 10 yrs. Yeah, they get bargains, but how good do those bargains look without the elite around them? They aren't patched together by everyone else's discards, they've brought in some of the most premium names in the game and built around them.

 

[carlton_99]

My question is, is it ability or game style?

IMO at their best Saad, Boyd, Docherty, McGovern, Weitering are all very good ball users if used properly. Cowan is a very good kick, as is Cincotta and Wilson.

I am not sure Hawks defenders are elite kicks but the way they run and turn defence into attack seems to breed confidence and trust

When we have the ball we look up and see no options and just bomb it down the line

It's the movement up the ground - spot on. If everyone ahead of the ball just groups up on the wing you are going to make the kick look average. We have great ball users off the HB we need the players up the ground to lead, create space for each other etc.

 

[Coops93]

My question is, is it ability or game style?

IMO at their best Saad, Boyd, Docherty, McGovern, Weitering are all very good ball users if used properly. Cowan is a very good kick, as is Cincotta and Wilson.

I am not sure Hawks defenders are elite kicks but the way they run and turn defence into attack seems to breed confidence and trust

When we have the ball we look up and see no options and just bomb it down the line

It's a good question and I'm not sure of the answer. I'd say some of it is gameplan but there's for sure times are open in the corridor or the switch is on but we don't have the confidence to pull the trigger. Some chicken and egg going on imo.

The same could be said of Port when Houston & Farrell haven't played. Suddenly their plans out of defence looked rubbish and they couldn't move the ball. Elite kickers make up for a lot of sins.

 

[Ninja Worrier]

Where'd you hear this? Not reported anywhere

True, it's just the chatter online, I'd be shocked if battle got them pick 8