Can Carlton Win A Flag between now and 2009?

[Silvagnis]

Most teams that go from bottom to top in a few seasons do so because:

- they already have gun players when they bottom out
- they add guns when they bottom out
- they trade for guns when they bottom out

Which of these criteria do Carlton fill? 0/3 in my books atm, although the drafting results so far remain to be seen.

It's possible they can turn it around quickly but I don't see any evidence that they have the people to do it.

Which criteria did West Coast meet when they qualified for a PP with this team four years ago?

http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/game_stats?mid=2001173

Pretty crap team with only Cousins, Gardiner, Glass, Fletcher, Braun, Embley, Jones, Matera and Cox surviving to this year.

I don't expect a flag in four years, but it's funny that Carlton are considered the worst wooden spoon side ever when the Saints could only manage 2.5 wins five years ago.

 

[demoniac]

They are a couple of years - and drafts - into a full rebuild so if they hold their recruiting nerve the Blues should be in final's contention by 2008-9 and be looking to challenge for a flag in the ensuing years. It is difficult to see them winning a flag by 2009 as most of the talent on their list is 21 or under and they'll need to add further young talent to their list in at least the next couple of drafts so I can't see them having the experience and maturity necessary to win a flag as early as 2009.

Of course all bets are off if Parkin/Brittain/O'Sullivan return.

 

[JeffDunne]

Which criteria did West Coast meet when they qualified for a PP with this team four years ago?

http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/game_stats?mid=2001173

Pretty crap team with only Cousins, Gardiner, Glass, Fletcher, Braun, Embley, Jones, Matera and Cox surviving to this year.

I don't expect a flag in four years, but it's funny that Carlton are considered the worst wooden spoon side ever when the Saints could only manage 2.5 wins five years ago.

"Only" had these players?

W/C are an example of exactly what I was talking about.

- already had gun players (Cousins & Cox alone are standouts, Kerr also was on the list in 2001)
- drafted guns (Judd?)
- traded for guns (Stenglein?)

Now who do Carlton have in the class of these players?

 

[mediumsizered]

Look, if that makes you feel better good onya , cheating must be a hard thing to accept

It's amazing that a couple of finals appearances makes you feel better. Meanwhile the Swans jump ahead of you and win a premiership, with probably the 4th or 5th best list in the competition. But of course we shouldn't forget that the poor old Saints had injuries this year.

But if you are content with a couple of grand final appearances in the last 35 years and paying for Malcolm Blight's millionaire lifestyle, who are we to pass judgement, at least the Saints will always be able to claim the functions at their social club in the 70s and 80s were the best of any of the social clubs. At least you have been number one at something.

 

[The Fireman]

It's amazing that a couple of finals appearances makes you feel better. Meanwhile the Swans jump ahead of you and win a premiership, with probably the 4th or 5th best list in the competition. But of course we shouldn't forget that the poor old Saints had injuries this year.

Correct

But if you are content with a couple of grand final appearances in the last 35 years and paying for Malcolm Blight's millionaire lifestyle, who are we to pass judgement, at least the Saints will always be able to claim the functions at their social club in the 70s and 80s were the best of any of the social clubs. At least you have been number one at something.

I must admit it is tough doing it the honest way.

 

[mediumsizered]

"Only" had these players?

W/C are an example of exactly what I was talking about.

- already had gun players (Cousins & Cox alone are standouts, Kerr also was on the list in 2001)
- drafted guns (Judd?)
- traded for guns (Stenglein?)

Now who do Carlton have in the class of these players?

3 years ago Cox wasn't even getting a run in the ruck. The first time he filled the number one ruck duties was during the 2003 pre season when Gardner was not available. Yet here we are 3 seasons later and he was the number one ruckman for the season. How quick has he emerged? Kerr is now a quality player but was he in 2001? Or 2002, 2003? Who would have thought the number one draft pick from 2002 would still be struggling to have an impact on the competition? You just don't know what can happen in 3-4 years time, that is what the AFL competition is all about.

FWIW (although I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge it, because you can't see past GT) names like Fevola, Stevens, Waite, Murphy, Walker all have the potential to be guns in 3 years time. But that is the unknown and only time will tell.

 

[mediumsizered]

your a fool

4 years ago sydney played in the finals!!

sydney have been in the finals every year since 1996 except 2000 & 2002, in 2000 they won 10games, in 2002 they won 9

sydney were miles ahead of where carlton are

the bears / lions
prelim in 96
then the merge
finals 97

they had that one year at the bottom in 98

99 they made the prelim
00 they made the semis

it was clear that these clubs have been strong for some time

blues have been rubbish for ages, draft penalties, influx of seasoned duds to give rise to false hope in 04........couldn't be in a worse position

If Sydney were travelling so well 3-4 years ago, why did Eade get the flick?

 

[JeffDunne]

3 years ago Cox wasn't even getting a run in the ruck. The first time he filled the number one ruck duties was during the 2003 pre season when Gardner was not available. Yet here we are 3 seasons later and he was the number one ruckman for the season. How quick has he emerged? Kerr is now a quality player but was he in 2001? Or 2002, 2003? Who would have thought the number one draft pick from 2002 would still be struggling to have an impact on the competition? You just don't know what can happen in 3-4 years time, that is what the AFL competition is all about.

FWIW (although I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge it, because you can't see past GT) names like Fevola, Stevens, Waite, Murphy, Walker all have the potential to be guns in 3 years time. But that is the unknown and only time will tell.

While I agree with what you are saying, I fail to see where Carlton's existing guns are going to come from. It's not fair to discount players like Walker, let alone players like Murphy who are yet to play a game, but it's that next tier of players you lack. The fact Kouta is still your best player must be a concern.

Stevens aint going to get any better, and Fevola . . . I think we've seen enough to form an opinion on him.

Carlton will draft quality kids over the next couple of seasons but I'd be very surprised if they get you a flag shot in the next 4 years.

 

[mediumsizered]

Correct


I must admit it is tough doing it the honest way.

It should be made easier, though, when you only have to pay some of your creditors 7c in the dollar, just to survive in the competition. The only club in the 110 year history to reach such an abysmal financial state. If some of the creditors hadn't been so charitable you would probably now see soccer being played at Linton St.

 

[The Fireman]

It should be made easier, though, when you only have to pay some of your creditors 7c in the dollar, just to survive in the competition. The only club in the 110 year history to reach such an abysmal financial state. If some of the creditors hadn't been so charitable you would probably now see soccer being played at Linton St.

Going down the path of cheating could have made it easier for us, but how could we live with that?
It must eat you away inside.

 

[mediumsizered]

Stevens aint going to get any better, and Fevola . . . I think we've seen enough to form an opinion on him.

Tell us how Gehrig was going 4 years ago. In fact how was he going until the infamous night out with Stevie Lawrence? Very lucky to still have a football career, whilst Lawrence was chopped, and finally turned it around at 28 years of age. I think the statistics will tell you that Fevola has achieved more by age 24 than Gehrig had. 178 goals in the last 3 seasons, at an average of just under 3 per game, in a team that has finished 15th, 11th and 16th would leave him only behind Gehrig, Lloyd and probably Neitz in consistency.

 

[JeffDunne]

Tell us how Gehrig was going 4 years ago.

2nd in our B&F. Should have been AA.

In fact how was he going until the infamous night out with Stevie Lawrence? Very lucky to still have a football career, whilst Lawrence was chopped, and finally turned it around at 28 years of age.

Turned it around? Really?

I think the statistics will tell you that Fevola has achieved more by age 24 than Gehrig had. 178 goals in the last 3 seasons, at an average of just under 3 per game, in a team that has finished 15th, 11th and 16th would leave him only behind Gehrig, Lloyd and probably Neitz in consistency.

I think the fact Fevola would assist another young player in stealing from a Dry-Cleaner speaks volumes for the man. Add the many other run-ins he's had with the law and good help you if this is the sort of leader players like Murphy are to look up to. Fev, Fatboy, Kouta . . . all selfish so-and-so's that are a cancer on the club.

 

[mediumsizered]

Going down the path of cheating could have made it easier for us, but how could we live with that?
It must eat you away inside.

No it doesn't, because I had nothing to do with it and I, like the majority of Carlton members voted the previous administration out because we did not agree with the direction they took. As is the case at all football clubs, you vote in a committee and then leave the decision making to them. If you don't like the direction they take your club in, you do something about it.

Tell me, how much say did you have in the appointment of Tim Watson and Malcolm Blight as coach of St Kilda? The committee got it wrong and if you feel they haven't acted in the best interests of your club, you get rid of them. Would you have paid Blight a million dollars to coach the club? Probably not, but the St Kilda members had faith in the administration to make the right decision.

What happened during the latter years of the Elliott administration has left a dark stain over the club, but does not remove the fact that the club enjoyed a fantastic period of success between 1967 and 2001 (8 premierships and 26 finals series) and the foundations have been put in place to get Carlton back up in to the upper echelon of the competition ,where they belong. And there will be no more cheating or this administration will be treated the same as the previous one.

 

[Bombers 2003]

What happened during the latter years of the Elliott administration has left a dark stain over the club, but does not remove the fact that the club enjoyed a fantastic period of success between 1967 and 2001 (8 premierships and 26 finals series) and the foundations have been put in place to get Carlton back up in to the upper echelon of the competition ,where they belong. And there will be no more cheating or this administration will be treated the same as the previous one.

Didnt Ian Collins and Wes Lofts have a little to do[more tthen a little!] with the incompetance of Elliot's latter years?

 

[mediumsizered]

Turned it around? Really?


I think the fact Fevola would assist another young player in stealing from a Dry-Cleaner speaks volumes for the man. Add the many other run-ins he's had with the law and good help you if this is the sort of leader players like Murphy are to look up to. Fev, Fatboy, Kouta . . . all selfish so-and-so's that are a cancer on the club.

You are actually more mentally deficient than the average feral St Kilda supporter. Kouta, a cancer on the club? You really have no idea. He played 3 games of football in 2002 with a massive knee brace on, after his ACL injury, when he should not have played at all during that season. Why? Because he wanted to do what he could to avoid the club's first wooden spoon. He subsequently suffered an injury to the other knee. That guy has busted his gut for the Carlton Football Club, more than Gehrig ever will at St Kilda. Lance Whitnall, 3 time leading goalkicker, All-Australian, 3rd in our best and fairest this season, I think he has contributed more to the Carlton Football Club than 1/2 million dollar Hamill has contributed to St Kilda. Please feel free to list the awards he has won at St Kilda.

I dare you to list the so called "many other run-ins" you allege Fevola has had with the law. Nothing would amuse me more than to see him sue you for libel. What a stupid thing to say. That is where your post totally lost all credibility.

No doubt you are gullible enough to believe Stevie Lawrence was the only one who had done anything wrong on the aforementioned, infamous night out. Gehrig was totally innocent, in the wrong place at the wrong time, right?

 

[mediumsizered]

Didnt Ian Collins and Wes Lofts have a little to do[more tthen a little!] with the incompetance of Elliot's latter years?

Ian Collins was appointed to the AFL in 1996 and therefore had resigned from his position at the Carlton Football Club and Wes Lofts was part of the administration that was ultimately voted out by the members.

 

[Joffaboy]

No doubt you are gullible enough to believe Stevie Lawrence was the only one who had done anything wrong on the aforementioned, infamous night out. Gehrig was totally innocent, in the wrong place at the wrong time, right?

Like to put your real name and address to a letter and send down your allegations to Linton St?

thought not. The anonymity of the internet a safe and secure spot for Carlton lemming cowards like you.

 

[The Fireman]

No it doesn't, because I had nothing to do with it and I, like the majority of Carlton members voted the previous administration out because we did not agree with the direction they took. As is the case at all football clubs, you vote in a committee and then leave the decision making to them. If you don't like the direction they take your club in, you do something about it.

Tell me, how much say did you have in the appointment of Tim Watson and Malcolm Blight as coach of St Kilda? The committee got it wrong and if you feel they haven't acted in the best interests of your club, you get rid of them. Would you have paid Blight a million dollars to coach the club? Probably not, but the St Kilda members had faith in the administration to make the right decision.

What happened during the latter years of the Elliott administration has left a dark stain over the club, but does not remove the fact that the club enjoyed a fantastic period of success between 1967 and 2001 (8 premierships and 26 finals series) and the foundations have been put in place to get Carlton back up in to the upper echelon of the competition ,where they belong. And there will be no more cheating or this administration will be treated the same as the previous one.

Good comment but never forget every time crap about the 7c in the dollar (Which was an unavoidable thing) comes up you know what will come back, the fact is your club cheated and it is now part of your clubs history whether you like it or not. Win it and wear it.

 

[mediumsizered]

Like to put your real name and address to a letter and send down your allegations to Linton St?

thought not. The anonymity of the internet a safe and secure spot for Carlton lemming cowards like you.

I'm still waiting on your list of allegations against Fevola. I think you know the saying, "people in glass houses...etc".

 

[mediumsizered]

Good comment but never forget every time crap about the 7c in the dollar (Which was an unavoidable thing) comes up you know what will come back, the fact is your club cheated and it is now part of your clubs history whether you like it or not. Win it and wear it.

The club cheated and the club paid the price, but that only accounts for a small part of the history of a club that is the equal most successful in the history of the VFL/AFL. People will still be talking about Jezza's mark and Harmes' individual effort, long after the salary cap breaches have been forgotten.

 

[docsaint]

No it doesn't, because I had nothing to do with it and I, like the majority of Carlton members voted the previous administration out because we did not agree with the direction they took. As is the case at all football clubs, you vote in a committee and then leave the decision making to them. If you don't like the direction they take your club in, you do something about it.

Tell me, how much say did you have in the appointment of Tim Watson and Malcolm Blight as coach of St Kilda? The committee got it wrong and if you feel they haven't acted in the best interests of your club, you get rid of them. Would you have paid Blight a million dollars to coach the club? Probably not, but the St Kilda members had faith in the administration to make the right decision.

What happened during the latter years of the Elliott administration has left a dark stain over the club, but does not remove the fact that the club enjoyed a fantastic period of success between 1967 and 2001 (8 premierships and 26 finals series) and the foundations have been put in place to get Carlton back up in to the upper echelon of the competition ,where they belong. And there will be no more cheating or this administration will be treated the same as the previous one.

I just love this "where we belong". You belonged at the top in an era where success could be bought, and tried to continue this tactic when new rules were brought in to prevent this, only to get caught.

Wake up, this is a new era with new rules, and your club "belongs" at the top no more than the saints or doggies or North.

The playing field is now (almost) even, and this silver spoon you seem to believe is your entitlement has been replaced by something a little less metallic. Yes , you will eventually make your way back but because of the way the system works, not as a birthright.

 

[Joffaboy]

I'm still waiting on your list of allegations against Fevola. I think you know the saying, "people in glass houses...etc".

I made no allegations against Fevola. You are the one making the allegations that Gehrig did something illegal when Lawrence ran into the light pole.

If you have evidence either

a) go to the police with said evidence
b) write a letter to the club with you name and address and outline your allegations or:

c)STFU with your defaming heresay allegations.

You made the allegations now put your real name and address down or show us the real coward you are by hiding behind an internet nic

 

[The Fireman]

People will still be talking about Jezza's mark and Harmes' individual effort, long after the salary cap breaches have been forgotten.

if you believe that you are living in fantasy land, no supporter will let you forget it.

 

[JeffDunne]

You are actually more mentally deficient than the average feral St Kilda supporter. Kouta, a cancer on the club? You really have no idea. He played 3 games of football in 2002 with a massive knee brace on, after his ACL injury, when he should not have played at all during that season. Why? Because he wanted to do what he could to avoid the club's first wooden spoon. He subsequently suffered an injury to the other knee. That guy has busted his gut for the Carlton Football Club, more than Gehrig ever will at St Kilda. Lance Whitnall, 3 time leading goalkicker, All-Australian, 3rd in our best and fairest this season, I think he has contributed more to the Carlton Football Club than 1/2 million dollar Hamill has contributed to St Kilda. Please feel free to list the awards he has won at St Kilda.

Kouta's career has been curtailed because of the incompetence of your football department. Agree 100%

But I think you are making a late run for Lemming of the Year with that post. Two things have hurt Carlton this decade, draft penalties and massive contracts to under-performing players. One a consequence of the other.

Kouta's contract is obscene. I don't fault the guy for the initial contract, but when it became clear the level of mis-management the club had experienced, that the AFL weren't going to increase the salary cap as anticipated, and the overall position the club had ended up in, for him to not only to refuse to renegotiate the contract down to industry standard but to show up at JE's book launch was a slap in the face to club and it's supporters.

Kouta would struggle to know the names of the new draftees.

I dare you to list the so called "many other run-ins" you allege Fevola has had with the law. Nothing would amuse me more than to see him sue you for libel. What a stupid thing to say. That is where your post totally lost all credibility.

You Lemmings really do amaze me sometimes. Do you know anything about your club?

Since you'll ask for "links" or sources, this is the best I can find for now :

BRENDAN FEVOLA and RYAN HOULIHAN were fined by Carlton for allegedly trying to steal jackets at a North Melbourne dry-cleaning store on Tuesday morning. The drunken behaviour by the two senior players is the third such incident in seven months involving Fevola, requiring police attention. Fevola was fined $8000 by the Blues and must undertake 30 hours of community service. Houlihan was fined $5000 and must attend at his cost an alcohol management course in addition to 10 hours community service work. A statement from Carlton expressed extreme disappointment and embarrassment to the behaviour of the two players.

http://footystats.freeservers.com/Special/Diary-carltoncrisis.html

No doubt you are gullible enough to believe Stevie Lawrence was the only one who had done anything wrong on the aforementioned, infamous night out. Gehrig was totally innocent, in the wrong place at the wrong time, right?

I'm not doubting anything when it comes to Fraser. Point being we have many other leaders at our football club.

Fraser also protects the kids - Fevola abuses them.

 

[mediumsizered]

I just love this "where we belong". You belonged at the top in an era where success could be bought, and tried to continue this tactic when new rules were brought in to prevent this, only to get caught.

Wake up, this is a new era with new rules, and your club "belongs" at the top no more than the saints or doggies or North.

The playing field is now (almost) even, and this silver spoon you seem to believe is your entitlement has been replaced by something a little less metallic. Yes , you will eventually make your way back but because of the way the system works, not as a birthright.

We could adopt the attitude that the system will see us back up the top again, like the Saints or Doggies or North, or we can be like Essendon, Collingwood, to a lesser extent Hawthorn and believe that we belong up the top. I would like to think that my club believes in itself enough to adopt the latter attitude. That is why other clubs love to hate us because of that self belief.