Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[faible]

Yes I am, given how strong and deep this years draft is and the fact that Hawthorn has Collingwood’s second round pick. There’s no better time to cash in.

Hawthorn tanking doesn't impact where that second round pick finishes, if anything it pushes it out if they tank the Collingwood game.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Yes I am, given how strong and deep this years draft is and the fact that Hawthorn has Collingwood’s second round pick. There’s no better time to cash in.

Collingwood don't have their first round pick this year either. Jesus ....

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Collingwood don't have their first round pick this year either. Jesus ....

Doesn’t really matter, the first live pick they have is a certainty to get used on Daicos.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Doesn’t really matter, the first live pick they have is a certainty to get used on Daicos.

Yeah but they will be wiped out from the rest of the draft and probably put into deficit as well points wise (least that is my understanding, am probably wrong though)

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

But you're the one making a fool of yourself insisting the scenarios are completely different. Both lists were at a stage where they badly needed youth, both teams had coaches that thought the premiership window was wide open, and both went down the route of tradin in older, experienced players for all their draft picks.

In Voss's case, it was only one disastrous off season. For Hawthorn it was at least three. Only a moron wouldn't see the obvious similarities.

The scenarios are absolutely different. In fact they couldn't be more different. Clarkson came off three flags and a 2016 season where an argument can be made that had Jarryd Roughead not been battling cancer Hawthorn may have won 4 in a row. They had sweet fk all by way of draft picks thereafter.

Voss took the Lions job in 2009. The Lions were not coming off a great era. That finished 5 years before Voss took the job. Leaving aside the priority picks gifted to the new franchises, Brisbane had premium picks in 2010, 2011 (where they had the equivalent of picks 2 and 3 after the GWS picks were taken out), 2012 (pick 5) after GWS concessional picks.

In 2016, Hawthorn's first pick was pick 10 after the did a swap with St Kilda which ultimately led to getting Jaeger O'meara, whom I concede they overpaid for.

But it is crystal clear, and if you actually understand how draft allocation works, that a side coming off a top 4 finish is lower down the draft order than sides that finish closer to the bottom. Voss came in when the Lions had a number of years where they had higher draft picks after performing poorly. Clarkson never had that luxury. Hawthorn barely had anything resembling a decent pick during their premiership years. Voss's and Clarko's starting points are not the same. And that fact alone makes your argument redundant.

 

[HairyO]

It’s a footy discussion forum and the poster is doing just that.
Perhaps you are just a little touchy atm in your new surroundings.
Clarkson had his draft picks and chose to trade them away and here we are today discussing the merits of his strategy ...

When we were winning flags we had no good draft picks. That is the entire point to this thread isnt it?

Without good draft picks eventually there will be a fall?

In the last 2 or 3 years we have started using more and more good draft picks on players. We will know in the next year or 2 whether the picks will have paid off.

 

[JamesCroft89]

The scenarios are absolutely different. In fact they couldn't be more different. Clarkson came off three flags and a 2016 season where an argument can be made that had Jarryd Roughead not been battling cancer Hawthorn may have won 4 in a row. They had sweet fk all by way of draft picks thereafter.

And yet he pushed Mitchell and Lewis out of the club after a top 4 finish in order to accommodate his stupid list strategy. A bit like how Voss tried to push Bradshaw and Rischitelli out to Carlton to bring in Fev.

 

[Ambrosia]

“Playing the kids” doesn’t work for them all. Look at the amount of games we pumped into some of our kids early and it has done absolutely zero for them. Make sure you develop the right ones in the right way. Playing an extra 3 kids who might have a 20% chance of ever making the level probably has a worse impact on the better kids who you are also trying to develop.

anyway looks like a long rebuild is ahead so like all teams will need abit of luck making sure they nail their draft picks.

Carlton’s rebuild is very weird. Pretty much just first round picks and players recruited from other clubs with Fisher being the only exception that comes to mind.

 

[QuietB]

And yet he pushed Mitchell and Lewis out of the club after a top 4 finish in order to accommodate his stupid list strategy. A bit like how Voss tried to push Bradshaw and Rischitelli out to Carlton to bring in Fev.

wat

How was Mitchell "pushed out"? Mitchell chose to pursue a coaching career in Perth that included one last year of playing.

Lewis was a bit messy and he was closer to being pushed out but it was not to accomodate anyone else. Hawthorn were simply not offering lewis what he wanted so he went elsewhere.

 

[JamesCroft89]

wat

How was Mitchell "pushed out"? Mitchell chose to pursue a coaching career in Perth that included one last year of playing.

Lewis was a bit messy and he was closer to being pushed out but it was not to accomodate anyone else. Hawthorn were simply not offering lewis what he wanted so he went elsewhere.

Are you forgetting these "honest talks" Clarko had with his older players? You can dress it up however you like, but he was obviously encouraging Mitchell and Lewis to explore their options elsewhere because he wanted to clear cap space for T.Mitchell and O'Meara. He had the same talk with Hodge a year later, and tried the same thing with Roughead, but he was having none of it.

 

[hawkman]

Are you forgetting these "honest talks" Clarko had with his older players? You can dress it up however you like, but he was obviously encouraging Mitchell and Lewis to explore their options elsewhere because he wanted to clear cap space for T.Mitchell and O'Meara. He had the same talk with Hodge a year later, and tried the same thing with Roughead, but he was having none of it.

Clarkson knew what Mitchell wanted to do post playing career, a option was lined up quickly. He is now back at the club and probably the next coach. Lewis' exit was messy.
Hodge retired and was only talked out of it by Fagan. Roughead had the chat but he decided he wanted to be a 1 club player, Clarkson probably saw how his last year was going to play out
He cleared out cap space of 2 over 30's for 2 23 year olds. We overpaid for O'Meara and underpaid for Mitchell. There was 0 quality midfield youth in the time so it was important trade. If they didn't come in the list could have ended up like Melbourne 2012/13.

The post 2018 trade period is more questionable. Hard to forsee the reigning Brownlow Medallist breaking his leg and missing the year though. He was probably the difference in 4 or 5 games in the 18 season. A shame we never got to see the Mitchell, O'Meara Wingard combination at their best

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

And yet he pushed Mitchell and Lewis out of the club after a top 4 finish in order to accommodate his stupid list strategy. A bit like how Voss tried to push Bradshaw and Rischitelli out to Carlton to bring in Fev.

Those blokes were at the end of their careers. How wouid keeping them have made any difference? Jesus Christ man, did you watch Lewis stink it up over his last 30 odd games? It’s a smart decision to roll the dice on some late picks in that situation.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

I guarantee you he saw himself a genius and is now hanging desperately onto that perception.

Thanks for your nothing contribution.

I’m not the idiot comparing Voss’s list strategy to Clarkson’s from two entirely different starting points.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Are you forgetting these "honest talks" Clarko had with his older players? You can dress it up however you like, but he was obviously encouraging Mitchell and Lewis to explore their options elsewhere because he wanted to clear cap space for T.Mitchell and O'Meara. He had the same talk with Hodge a year later, and tried the same thing with Roughead, but he was having none of it.

So you are suggesting he should have kept two 33 year olds when it was clear that the era was over and not at least roll the dice on some late picks whilst getting a couple of fat salaries off the books instead?

 

[raffrox]

From the weekend it looks like they'll go the old man masters footy route and just go faux tough guy/sniper. Four players cited with two of the incidents being against one of our smallest and youngest players (Caleb Serong

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Caleb Serong

Age

23

Ht

180cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.0

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.6

5star

CL

2.6

4star

D

13.0

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.0

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.6

4star

CL

2.6

4star

D

13.0

4star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.0

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.6

5star

CL

2.6

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).

 

[Iceman!]

From the weekend it looks like they'll go the old man masters footy route and just go faux tough guy/sniper. Four players cited with two of the incidents being against one of our smallest and youngest players (Caleb Serong).

Lmfao completely unrelated to the thread, just needed a vent? It was a heated game. Some players crossed the line a little bit, and will cop the whack. Really not a big deal.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

From the weekend it looks like they'll go the old man masters footy route and just go faux tough guy/sniper. Four players cited with two of the incidents being against one of our smallest and youngest players (Caleb Serong).

From the club that gave us Sniper Nat, that’s rather rich.

 

[TylerDurden]

Are you forgetting these "honest talks" Clarko had with his older players? You can dress it up however you like, but he was obviously encouraging Mitchell and Lewis to explore their options elsewhere because he wanted to clear cap space for T.Mitchell and O'Meara. He had the same talk with Hodge a year later, and tried the same thing with Roughead, but he was having none of it.

Irony is that Mitchell will be taking his job. Could be as soon as the end of this season, depending on the W/L ratio.

 

[Roby]

Irony is that Mitchell will be taking his job. Could be as soon as the end of this season, depending on the W/L ratio.

Yeah Ckarko is going to be there at least five more years.

 

[Bradkli]

Yeah Ckarko is going to be there at least five more years.

There’s more chance of us playing finals this year than Clarko being coach past 2022..99% chance he will see out his contract then hand the reigns over to Sam Mitchell.

1% chance, when we finish this season with a win-loss of 4-18 or 5-17, there’s a chance he may finish up one year early and take a godfather offer from Collingwood.

 

[Roby]

There’s more chance of us playing finals this year than Clarko being coach past 2022..99% chance he will see out his contract then hand the reigns over to Sam Mitchell.

1% chance, when we finish this season with a win-loss of 4-18 or 5-17, there’s a chance he may finish up one year early and take a godfather offer from Collingwood.

Sure. See you in five years.

 

[FairKouta]

Where’s the dude that writes essays on this thread ? The gatekeeper of this thread.
usually a your clubs been bad for 25 years response. If he He’s agreed hawks need a rebuild close this thread

 

[Gavin Excell]

Where’s the dude that writes essays on this thread ? The gatekeeper of this thread.
usually a your clubs been bad for 25 years response. If he He’s agreed hawks need a rebuild close this thread

HK89?

 

[Pessimistic]

For what it's worth, the St Kilda team from 2009-2010 is far superior to any Geelong team from 2012-onwards.

with hindsight, looking at the hawks winning 2015 as the oldest premiership team ever, do we wonder of the saints dismantled that team too soon?

 

[Pessimistic]

So you are advocating for Hawthorn to tank then?

could feasibly come second last with 8 wins. That’s not going to wreck the culture