Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Iceman!]

No, you're the one missing the point, to a laughable extent.

There is a big difference between being a good solid top 4 H&A season team, and a genuine flag contender. It's something you clearly don't understand.

Geelong have never been a genuine contender. And no, years with stupid shortened quarters don't count in the context of actual football.

What ever dude, you wanna disagree that is fine. Clearly we do not agree on this.

There has been plenty of successful list builds that have fallen short of flags and will be plenty more. I believe the Cats were a legitimate contender last year.

 

[JamesCroft89]

What ever dude, you wanna disagree that is fine. Clearly we do not agree on this.

There has been plenty of successful list builds that have fallen short of flags and will be plenty more. I believe the Cats were a legitimate contender last year.

A meaningless year in the context of real football.

Yes, there are successful list builds that don't win flags. St Kilda 2009-2010 qualifies as one, Geelong 2012-present does not.

 

[momentbymoment]

At least they have the services Of a Master Coach.
And a new trick - the flop and roll.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

When a Freo fan labours the point about building unsuccessful lists and failure we should all probably take note.

After all, they are the experts.

Please tell us more JamesCroft89

 

[Red Bull]

When a Freo fan labours the point about building unsuccessful lists and failure we should all probably take note.

After all, they are the experts.

Please tell us more JamesCroft89

What has the team he supports got to do with anything.
We’re you a genius during the 3peat and are you now an idiot ???

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

What has the team he supports got to do with anything.
We’re you a genius during the 3peat and are you now an idiot ???

It’s easy to hurl shit from the cheap seats is the point I am making.

Clarkson is playing with an inferior set of draft picks given the successful era he built so this is a ridiculous argument from the outset. He has had to be creative and now we have some simple fool comparing his coaching to Michael bloody Voss.

 

[Red Bull]

It’s easy to hurl sh*t from the cheap seats is the point I am making.

Clarkson is playing with an inferior set of draft picks given the successful era he built so this is a ridiculous argument from the outset.

It’s a footy discussion forum and the poster is doing just that.
Perhaps you are just a little touchy atm in your new surroundings.
Clarkson had his draft picks and chose to trade them away and here we are today discussing the merits of his strategy ...

 

[Kram]

Not sure who there is responsible but some stupid trading has set them back. Set for a fair amount of time towards the foot of the ladder. Will Clarkson stick around that long?

 

[daniel23]

Desperately need mids and fwds . Think our backline is pretty exciting when everyone is up and going. Next

Don't understand what point you're trying to make here.
Geelong have been neglecting the draft for a long time now, and the end result? A good, consistent team that finishes top 4 most years, but always collapses at some point in the finals.
Even the Bulldogs, who haven't been anywhere near as consistent for the last few years, were still good enough to win a flag on the back of strong drafting.

Richmond's three flags were built on a foundation of Riewoldt, Cotchin, Martin, Rance. What's Hawthorn's equivalent of that in the current year? A 28 year old Tom Mitchell? He's not even half the player Dustin Martin is.

Nobody is saying traditional rebuilds are always the answer, but looking at where Hawthorn's list was in 2016, it very clearly was the right answer, but Clarko was arrogant and thought he could re-open the window as soon as it shut.


Except what happens in 3-4 years down the line? Had you initiated a proper rebuild in 2016, that would be the time you'd expect to be contending. Instead, it will be the time you start to see players like Tom Mitchell, Jaeger O'Meara and Chad Wingard retiring, a massive hole of talent in your mid-aged players.

Whats happens in 3-4 years is unknown but what you've said about our older players is what Is happening at freo, so far it's been a 6 year rebuild? Realistically I'd say you're 3 years away. Mundy, fyfe and walters are your 3 best players and I know you wouldn't admit it but structurally you really on tababener very heavily who will be 31 in 3 years.

It just proves how hard it is to consistently contend and I think clarko would admit that now but like others I think we have some tools our backline next year cpuld have sicily,impry,day,scrimshaw and cj all 26 and under.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

As an update to the OP...

In the eight drafts between 2011 and 2018, the Hawks have two players on their list that they drafted in the Top 40 - Tim O’Brien and Daniel Howe

15

Daniel Howe

Age

28

Ht

193cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.2

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

7.3

5star

M

4.3

4star

T

4.5

5star

CL

2.2

4star

No current season stats available

D

12.2

3star

K

6.6

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

4.4

4star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.0

3star

.

However it does seem a pretty clear shift has taken place. In 2019 and 2020 they have Will Day

12

Will Day

Age

23

Ht

191cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.5

5star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.5

2star

D

17.5

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.5

4star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

2star

CL

0.5

3star

D

17.5

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.5

5star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.5

3star

, Finn Maginness, Grainger-Barras, Seamus Mitchell and Connor Downie. They’ve gone back to the draft.

 

[momentbymoment]

What has the team he supports got to do with anything.
We’re you a genius during the 3peat and are you now an idiot ???

I guarantee you he saw himself a genius and is now hanging desperately onto that perception.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

So? What does that have to do with luck?

Were Richmond unlucky that they selected Tambling ahead of Buddy? No, they were just stupid and incompetent.

No, the Tigers were very lucky. If we’d picked Buddy we’d have been a better team, but not good enough to seriously contend with that list.

As a result selecting the likes of Tambling, Meyer, Pattison etc in that 2004 draft ensured we’d be hopeless enough to have access to Cotchin, Riewoldt, Martin etc in ensuing drafts who all went on to become the cornerstone of three premierships.

There’s a massive amount of luck in the draft, including whether you’ve got the right people at your club at the time to make the best of the talent coming in.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

What makes you think success in the draft comes down to luck? Talent recruitment is a skill.

There is luck involved. Carlton started its rebuild needing to find an entire spine. We ended up having pick 1 where Weitering was an obvious pick one then had two picks in the early teens where there were two highly rated key forwards in Curnow and McKay. Look at the drafts either side of that and you can’t find those types of prospects in that range.
Also not all drafts are built the same. I’d prefer pick 5 in the 2018 draft over most pick 1’s in other drafts.
There is skill in it but it’s bloody hard to pick who is going to be the best players from a draft after they have had two seasons in the AFL system so picking them when they are 17-18 means there is a hell of a lot of guess work and as we know the bottom side only gets one pick ahead of the top side so if you stuff your first one up or have a McCartin situation you have a worse chance to improve from the draft then the premiership side from then on.

Most importantly the bit about Tambling and Franklin. No it wasn’t luck Richmond stuffed up it was luck for Hawthorn though.

 

[faible]

Whose alt account is JamesCroft89 I wonder.

 

[WWSD]

As an update to the OP...

In the eight drafts between 2011 and 2018, the Hawks have two players on their list that they drafted in the Top 40 - Tim O’Brien and Daniel Howe.

However it does seem a pretty clear shift has taken place. In 2019 and 2020 they have Will Day, Finn Maginness, Grainger-Barras, Seamus Mitchell and Connor Downie. They’ve gone back to the draft.

You forgot Tyler Brockman.

Hawthorn are all but certain to get one of Jason Horne, Josh Sinn or Tyler Sonsie.

Welcome to Hawthorn picks 2, 21 and 23.

 

[boncer34]

You forgot Tyler Brockman.

Hawthorn are all but certain to get one of Jason Horne, Josh Sinn or Tyler Sonsie.

Welcome to Hawthorn picks 2, 21 and 23.

Tyler Brockman was top 40?

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

It’s a footy discussion forum and the poster is doing just that.
Perhaps you are just a little touchy atm in your new surroundings.
Clarkson had his draft picks and chose to trade them away and here we are today discussing the merits of his strategy ...

I am not at all touchy but you do understand we had rubbish draft picks?

I have no issue with the discussion but let's have the discussion based on facts. When I see morons comparing the greatest coach of the modern era (and arguably the greatest coach of all time) to Michael Voss you'll forgive me for giving such nonsense the treatment it deserves.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

You forgot Tyler Brockman.

Hawthorn are all but certain to get one of Jason Horne, Josh Sinn or Tyler Sonsie.

Welcome to Hawthorn picks 2, 21 and 23.

It certainly makes for a pretty strong draft haul over a few years.

 

[JamesCroft89]

I am not at all touchy but you do understand we had rubbish draft picks?

I have no issue with the discussion but let's have the discussion based on facts. When I see morons comparing the greatest coach of the modern era (and arguably the greatest coach of all time) to Michael Voss you'll forgive me for giving such nonsense the treatment it deserves.

Except he literally did pull a Voss, no matter how much it upsets morons who believe otherwise.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Except he literally did pull a Voss, no matter how much it upsets morons who believe otherwise.

How many Premierships did he win first?

What were Voss's draft picks? What were Clarko's?

You aren't comparing apples with apples. Stop making a fool of yourself and wasting everybody's time by pretending you are.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

You forgot Tyler Brockman.

Hawthorn are all but certain to get one of Jason Horne, Josh Sinn or Tyler Sonsie.

Welcome to Hawthorn picks 2, 21 and 23.

Think you guys should finish (just) outside the bottom 4.

 

[JamesCroft89]

How many Premierships did he win first?

What were Voss's draft picks? What were Clarko's?

You aren't comparing apples with apples. Stop making a fool of yourself and wasting everybody's time by pretending you are.

But you're the one making a fool of yourself insisting the scenarios are completely different. Both lists were at a stage where they badly needed youth, both teams had coaches that thought the premiership window was wide open, and both went down the route of tradin in older, experienced players for all their draft picks.

In Voss's case, it was only one disastrous off season. For Hawthorn it was at least three. Only a moron wouldn't see the obvious similarities.

 

[WWSD]

Think you guys should finish (just) outside the bottom 4.

Why? This years draft is set to be 2x stronger than last year and it’s stacked with talented midfielders. I’d hate for Essendon to have it’s first round pick before Hawthorn.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Why? This years draft is set to be 2x stronger than last year and it’s stacked with talented midfielders. I’d hate for Essendon to have it’s first round pick before Hawthorn.

So you are advocating for Hawthorn to tank then?

 

[WWSD]

So you are advocating for Hawthorn to tank then?

Yes I am, given how strong and deep this years draft is and the fact that Hawthorn has Collingwood’s second round pick. There’s no better time to cash in.