Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Smithdogmaddog]

How do Hawthorn fans feel about the O'Meara, Mitchell and Wingard trades in hindsight?

I know they are in pretty good shape now, but I reckon they'd refund those players if they had the choice. Could've picked up Naughton in 2017, who would be perfect for them right now.

Mitchell was always a good trade and was fair value.

Omerea and Wingard were always massive overs cos Clarko had a crush on these players and was representative of a bigger problem where no one was left at the club to question Clarko. It eventually led to his downfall but took way too long.

The rebuild should’ve started in 2017 and didn’t really until 2022 so essentially 5 years pissed up against the wall. Found it very frustrating as I could see it happening all along so how didn’t enough people at the club have the courage to stand up to Clarko.

 

[TylerDurden]

I’m sure JOM played finals at Hawthorn in 2018?

Played the first final v Tiges.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Still haven’t actually had a pick before number six

Same

 

[QuietB]

How do Hawthorn fans feel about the O'Meara, Mitchell and Wingard trades in hindsight?

I know they are in pretty good shape now, but I reckon they'd refund those players if they had the choice. Could've picked up Naughton in 2017, who would be perfect for them right now.

The remaining premiership players after Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Gibson, Lake, whoever left deserved another crack.

They were not up to it. It didn’t work. You go again.

I honestly have no issue with it. The players that remained deserved another go. The alternative was to blow it up entirely but no one has ever actually done that.

 

[QuietB]

So did Geelong and they stayed in contentiotn the whole time - winning another one.

If Hawthorn had of got the equivalent of Danger and Cameron they would have won more as well.

Geelong have done everything right (coaching, back office, development, yada yada) and including getting kissed on the dick in an epic way.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I would be happy to see freo at least win one flag in my lifetime but that is my personal opinion

I’d like to see it too. Freo fans were all class in 2013 too.

 

[HairyO]

I wanted Lake and Hale to play on in 2016 but we had to regenerate the list.

I think if they stayed we probably would've 4-peated or at least made the GF.

BUT, swings and roundabouts. Clarko is arguably the greatest coach of all time and I back his judgement in to both move older players on as well as bring in elite mids (Mitchell and O'meara) to go for more flags.

I do think we overpaid to get the right picks to make gold coast happy in the Omeara trade. I also think Burton + pick 15 (Xavier Duursma) was massive overs for Wingard given the knocks on his commitment to training/lack of leadership.

That Gold Coast trade was insane. GCS got less than we originally offered and the Saints won the trade.

And to this day they still **** up their trading over and over.

 

[5minutes_of_Dew]

That Gold Coast trade was insane. GCS got less than we originally offered and the Saints won the trade.

And to this day they still **** up their trading over and over.

Gold Coast really were being d***s about it. I remember Cochrane threatening to walk him to the PSD if they didn't get what they wanted.

We were forced to pay overs to prevent Essendon getting him for free (a price worth paying imo).

 

[btdg]

I wanted Lake and Hale to play on in 2016 but we had to regenerate the list.

I think if they stayed we probably would've 4-peated or at least made the GF.

BUT, swings and roundabouts. Clarko is arguably the greatest coach of all time and I back his judgement in to both move older players on as well as bring in elite mids (Mitchell and O'meara) to go for more flags.

I do think we overpaid to get the right picks to make gold coast happy in the Omeara trade. I also think Burton + pick 15 (Xavier Duursma) was massive overs for Wingard given the knocks on his commitment to training/lack of leadership.

Wingard was a durable, 2xAA, 25 year old when Hawthorn traded for him. I think that was fair value

Going for Mitchell and O'Meara wasn't a bad move, either. That was a whole new midfield.

I still think Hawthorn did the right thing in trying to reboot Geelong style. I actually think that the problem was they didn't quite go hard enough, in that they weren't able to add more supporting cast members alongside the 'stars'.

In 2016 they brought in Mitchell/O'Meara and drafted Mitch Lewis and Harry Morrisson, plus Conor Nash as a rookie and only lost Jordan Lewis. They tried to add support in Ty Vickery and Ricky Henderson but neither really worked out. That was a really good start

In 2017 they added Jarman Impey and drafted Worpel/Moore plus Jiath as a rookie. Tried adding David Mirra. Another good year in the 'big' stuff but not much in the way of cheap support,. No free agents

But at this point they had brought in both 3 decent mature players and 6 good young players and were rebuilding well, if perhaps a bit shallow.

In 2018 they brought in Scully and Wingard, drafted Koschitzke and Ned Reeves as a pre-season pick. Again, solid, but no free agents or cheap senior players, and lost a couple of solid guys as well
In 2019 the brought in Sam Frost and Jono Patten, drafted Will Day and Finn Maginness. Frost and Patten
In 2020 brought in nobody of note, drafted DGB, Seamus Mitchell, Downie, Brockman, nothing in teh rookies or pre-season and let Isaac Smith go to Geelong and James Frawley to St Kilda.
In 2021, brought in nobody of note (Darren Minchington!), drafted Ward//Butler/McDonald, and let Ceglar and Tim O'Brien go

That's the period where the strategy fell apart IMO. Scully/Patten never did much, Wingard fell away unexpectedly, and they had some draft misses, but inmportantly, just weren't able to add a supporting cast alongside Mitchell/O'Meara and the guys they had invested in. They added Newcombe mid-season 2021 and came out of this 6-year period with Lewis/Morrison/Nash/Worpel/Moore/Jiath/Day/Maginness/Ward/McDonald/Newcombe as a young core. That's actually not terrible considering they also took their shot at staying at the top!

I still actually think it is easier to reboot from the top than the bottom, where you are bringing players into a strong and successful culture and allowing them to play a role while they find their feet (rather than throwing them to the wolves as a primary midfielder or KP player at 19 or 20), and you can do so while ignoring the elite end of the draft as long as you have a real plan and commitment to filling gaps, and get a bit of luck along the way.

TBH, it's luck that plays a big part. They had some injury luck go the wrong way, only got one F/S or academy player in that span (Maginness) and just didn't get some of the breaks Geelong have had. Still not a terrible strategy and I don't think it set them back too much anyway. I mean, in 2017 they took Worpel/Moore with late draft picks. Had they just kept their own picks and not traded them, the players taken were Hunter Clark and Liam Ryan. If they keep the picks they probably draft differently and end up in a similar spot.

 

[QuietB]

Wingard was a durable, 2xAA, 25 year old when Hawthorn traded for him. I think that was fair value

Going for Mitchell and O'Meara wasn't a bad move, either. That was a whole new midfield.

I still think Hawthorn did the right thing in trying to reboot Geelong style. I actually think that the problem was they didn't quite go hard enough, in that they weren't able to add more supporting cast members alongside the 'stars'.

In 2016 they brought in Mitchell/O'Meara and drafted Mitch Lewis and Harry Morrisson, plus Conor Nash as a rookie and only lost Jordan Lewis. They tried to add support in Ty Vickery and Ricky Henderson but neither really worked out. That was a really good start

In 2017 they added Jarman Impey and drafted Worpel/Moore plus Jiath as a rookie. Tried adding David Mirra. Another good year in the 'big' stuff but not much in the way of cheap support,. No free agents

But at this point they had brought in both 3 decent mature players and 6 good young players and were rebuilding well, if perhaps a bit shallow.

In 2018 they brought in Scully and Wingard, drafted Koschitzke and Ned Reeves as a pre-season pick. Again, solid, but no free agents or cheap senior players, and lost a couple of solid guys as well
In 2019 the brought in Sam Frost and Jono Patten, drafted Will Day and Finn Maginness. Frost and Patten
In 2020 brought in nobody of note, drafted DGB, Seamus Mitchell, Downie, Brockman, nothing in teh rookies or pre-season and let Isaac Smith go to Geelong and James Frawley to St Kilda.
In 2021, brought in nobody of note (Darren Minchington!), drafted Ward//Butler/McDonald, and let Ceglar and Tim O'Brien go

That's the period where the strategy fell apart IMO. Scully/Patten never did much, Wingard fell away unexpectedly, and they had some draft misses, but inmportantly, just weren't able to add a supporting cast alongside Mitchell/O'Meara and the guys they had invested in. They added Newcombe mid-season 2021 and came out of this 6-year period with Lewis/Morrison/Nash/Worpel/Moore/Jiath/Day/Maginness/Ward/McDonald/Newcombe as a young core. That's actually not terrible considering they also took their shot at staying at the top!

I still actually think it is easier to reboot from the top than the bottom, where you are bringing players into a strong and successful culture and allowing them to play a role while they find their feet (rather than throwing them to the wolves as a primary midfielder or KP player at 19 or 20), and you can do so while ignoring the elite end of the draft as long as you have a real plan and commitment to filling gaps, and get a bit of luck along the way.

TBH, it's luck that plays a big part. They had some injury luck go the wrong way, only got one F/S or academy player in that span (Maginness) and just didn't get some of the breaks Geelong have had. Still not a terrible strategy and I don't think it set them back too much anyway. I mean, in 2017 they took Worpel/Moore with late draft picks. Had they just kept their own picks and not traded them, the players taken were Hunter Clark and Liam Ryan. If they keep the picks they probably draft differently and end up in a similar spot.

I think that is overthinking it.

Often we talk about “cake and icing” to describe lists.

Hawthorn had no cake left and drafting in all the icing in the world was not going to cover over that.

 

[peetoo]

Wingard was a durable, 2xAA, 25 year old when Hawthorn traded for him. I think that was fair value

Going for Mitchell and O'Meara wasn't a bad move, either. That was a whole new midfield.

I still think Hawthorn did the right thing in trying to reboot Geelong style. I actually think that the problem was they didn't quite go hard enough, in that they weren't able to add more supporting cast members alongside the 'stars'.

In 2016 they brought in Mitchell/O'Meara and drafted Mitch Lewis and Harry Morrisson, plus Conor Nash as a rookie and only lost Jordan Lewis. They tried to add support in Ty Vickery and Ricky Henderson but neither really worked out. That was a really good start

In 2017 they added Jarman Impey and drafted Worpel/Moore plus Jiath as a rookie. Tried adding David Mirra. Another good year in the 'big' stuff but not much in the way of cheap support,. No free agents

But at this point they had brought in both 3 decent mature players and 6 good young players and were rebuilding well, if perhaps a bit shallow.

In 2018 they brought in Scully and Wingard, drafted Koschitzke and Ned Reeves as a pre-season pick. Again, solid, but no free agents or cheap senior players, and lost a couple of solid guys as well
In 2019 the brought in Sam Frost and Jono Patten, drafted Will Day and Finn Maginness. Frost and Patten
In 2020 brought in nobody of note, drafted DGB, Seamus Mitchell, Downie, Brockman, nothing in teh rookies or pre-season and let Isaac Smith go to Geelong and James Frawley to St Kilda.
In 2021, brought in nobody of note (Darren Minchington!), drafted Ward//Butler/McDonald, and let Ceglar and Tim O'Brien go

That's the period where the strategy fell apart IMO. Scully/Patten never did much, Wingard fell away unexpectedly, and they had some draft misses, but inmportantly, just weren't able to add a supporting cast alongside Mitchell/O'Meara and the guys they had invested in. They added Newcombe mid-season 2021 and came out of this 6-year period with Lewis/Morrison/Nash/Worpel/Moore/Jiath/Day/Maginness/Ward/McDonald/Newcombe as a young core. That's actually not terrible considering they also took their shot at staying at the top!

I still actually think it is easier to reboot from the top than the bottom, where you are bringing players into a strong and successful culture and allowing them to play a role while they find their feet (rather than throwing them to the wolves as a primary midfielder or KP player at 19 or 20), and you can do so while ignoring the elite end of the draft as long as you have a real plan and commitment to filling gaps, and get a bit of luck along the way.

TBH, it's luck that plays a big part. They had some injury luck go the wrong way, only got one F/S or academy player in that span (Maginness) and just didn't get some of the breaks Geelong have had. Still not a terrible strategy and I don't think it set them back too much anyway. I mean, in 2017 they took Worpel/Moore with late draft picks. Had they just kept their own picks and not traded them, the players taken were Hunter Clark and Liam Ryan. If they keep the picks they probably draft differently and end up in a similar spot.

Eventually went too hard on the trade ins. Patton vickery and Hartley? Busts and not really solid people. At one point the 22 was 50% trade ins which somehow doesn’t work. 7 or 8 trade ins seems to be optimal as it prevents the age/experience factor dropping too low. This born out but threepeat team and current team - 8 trade ins

 

[Osho]

Hawthorn is like Guiness. I like to watch!

 

[H00t]

I think that is overthinking it.

Often we talk about “cake and icing” to describe lists.

Hawthorn had no cake left and drafting in all the icing in the world was not going to cover over that.

From 2009-2018 hawks had hardly drafted anyone in the first 30 picks. Of those not many really came good either.

Had a number of good picks after that but most where either finishing up or yet to hit their stride.

The list had been all in since 2009. It was going to catch up at some point. Lucky it all came crashing down after 4 flags

 

[Freomaniac]

I’d like to see it too. Freo fans were all class in 2013 too.

I assume you dont care who Freo beats to win their 1st grand final, as long as it's not your side

 

[Crankyhawk]

I assume you dont care who Freo beats to win their 1st grand final, as long as it's not your side

That’s correct

 

[Hawkk]

Second youngest squad in the league, could do with some more A grade though. Like Norf

 

[Freomaniac]

I’m sure JOM played finals at Hawthorn in 2018?

I stand corrected.... I thought he was traded in after the 2018 finals series.

Hawks went out in straight sets in 2018. I still remember that 2018 season. Clarkson squeezed every drop of that hawks list to make top 4.

It was Chad Wingard that got traded in at the end of 2018.

Crazy to think Jaeger O Meara is 30 years old and has not seen one finals win as a player.

 

[Hawker55]

Eventually went too hard on the trade ins. Patton vickery and Hartley? Busts and not really solid people. At one point the 22 was 50% trade ins which somehow doesn’t work. 7 or 8 trade ins seems to be optimal as it prevents the age/experience factor dropping too low. This born out but threepeat team and current team - 8 trade ins

Have to defend Hartley here. He was a decent bloke and never brought in to play 20 game a season. The other two…

 

[Hawker55]

I stand corrected.... I thought he was traded in after the 2018 finals series.

Hawks went out in straight sets in 2018. I still remember that 2018 season. Clarkson squeezed every drop of that hawks list to make top 4.

It was Chad Wingard that got traded in at the end of 2018.

Crazy to think Jaeger O Meara is 30 years old and has not seen one finals win as a player.

We had a mental draw that helped. No way should we have been top 4 but the draw covered a lot of deficiencies. No Hawks supporter ever thought we were a contender that year

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Can Hawthorn succeed while...

Are Hawthorn tanking...

Geelong can't develop young players...

3 threads that are routinely bumped and may have once had a purpose but are all now redundant as the answer is clearly contrary to the intention of the OP.