Official Club Stuff Carlton Academy - Next Gen & Father/Son/Daughter Discussion

[teddy-hopkins]

Atm have our f/s rated between 25-35, there’s some very good kids before these picks…

Yeah well it would help if Ben would stop getting 25-30 disposals every game for SA!

I do agree though - it seems like a lot of other quality mids have gone past Ben with his disposal letting him down and Lucas was always a 2nd rounder. No shame in that.

For context - our 3 late 3rd round picks are worth 3 fifths of fck all anyway: 250 points. Even if Lucas slipped to pick 30 that's 650 points. So those 3 picks are worth just over a third of Lucas.

 

[ctwenty1]

Played more games at the Saints

1995–2000	Carlton	92 (114)
2001–2006	St Kilda	98 (125)

But he will forever be known as a Carlton player and premiership assistant coach.

Even Jezza ended up at the saints- but everyone considers him a Carlton great

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Yeah well it would help if Ben would stop getting 25-30 disposals every game for SA!

I do agree though - it seems like a lot of other quality mids have gone past Ben with his disposal letting him down and Lucas was always a 2nd rounder. No shame in that.

For context - our 3 late 3rd round picks are worth 3 fifths of fck all anyway: 250 points. Even if Lucas slipped to pick 30 that's 650 points. So those 3 picks are worth just over a third of Lucas.

ATM i think that the twins are looking like they are rated in the second round, no shame in that with both having decent skill sets within that range..
Still early days watching the U18’s but from what I’ve seen so far there’s a good batch of players that are ahead of them with much better talent than what both of them possess have atm, both don’t really have the necessary the qualities that our list actually requires, not to say that 1 or both won’t be recruited but I’d be taking the best players available in the top 25…
See what happens…

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Yeah well it would help if Ben would stop getting 25-30 disposals every game for SA!

I do agree though - it seems like a lot of other quality mids have gone past Ben with his disposal letting him down and Lucas was always a 2nd rounder. No shame in that.

For context - our 3 late 3rd round picks are worth 3 fifths of fck all anyway: 250 points. Even if Lucas slipped to pick 30 that's 650 points. So those 3 picks are worth just over a third of Lucas.

I’m don’t mean to say Ben hasn’t got the qualities to be a good player, no matter where is is drafted, i think he has the potential to be a good inside midfielder who will probably start of from playing half back as well as midfield minutes in the reserves, he’s ability to read the play and win ball in stoppages or across halfback is his strength, he seems to have a good tank and really good work rate, reads the game well, his brother seems to have better outside qualities particularly if he can get his kicking and decision making to the required standards for AFL…

Ben and his brother unfortunately are not really quick with the pure legspeed that their dad possessed, which is a issue with our current list, he’ has great hands but only neat with his kicking…

I’m not knocking him because he has some really good qualities, but with the players we already have on our list that are not overly quick inside/outside midfielders…

What would the club to do if there were 2 players before both that were highly rated which could potentially be drafted if they were available before both of them which would mean potentially missing out on one or both?

Does the club draft a higher ranked player they have on their list/board if the opportunity is there or do they go all in on a F/S selection?

Not saying it will happen but if there’s the chance of collecting a couple of higher rated players on our draft board, what happens ?

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I’m don’t mean to say Ben hasn’t got the qualities to be a good player, no matter where is is drafted, i think he has the potential to be a good inside midfielder who will probably start of from playing half back as well as midfield minutes in the reserves, he’s ability to read the play and win ball in stoppages or across halfback is his strength, he seems to have a good tank and really good work rate, reads the game well, his brother seems to have better outside qualities particularly if he can get his kicking and decision making to the required standards for AFL…

Ben and his brother unfortunately are not really quick with the pure legspeed that their dad possessed, which is a issue with our current list, he’ has great hands but only neat with his kicking…

I’m not knocking him because he has some really good qualities, but with the players we already have on our list that are not overly quick inside midfielders…

What would the club to do if there were 2 players before both that were highly rated which could potentially be drafted if they were available before both of them which would mean potentially missing out on one or both?

Does the club draft a higher ranked player they have on their list/board if the opportunity is there or do they go all in on a F/S selection?

Not saying it will happen but if there’s the chance of collecting a couple of higher rated players on our draft board, what happens ?

We've still got our first and second round picks. The ideal trade would be to bump our first rounder up a bit (to get ahead of Ben) and give up the second rounder for a bunch of later picks. Austin is going to earn his money this off season but if we can come away with a pick in the teens and 2x campo brothers that will be a good result.

 

[Christou2Kouta]

If the AFL get rid of the discount for Father-Son picks, then they become just another player in the pool as far as I’m concerned.

Looking at our list needs, who are the best players to complement what we have and contribute over the next decade? If we genuinely believe that’s the Campo boys when our picks come up, great, take them. Otherwise, we wish them luck and pick the players we need.

The best chance for us to get them is for other clubs to assume we’ll be taking them so not to bother doing their homework and letting them slide well below what they’re worth.


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[katmanblue]

Played more games at the Saints

1995–2000	Carlton	92 (114)
2001–2006	St Kilda	98 (125)

How many of his saints games actually meant anything?

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Sector 7G]

ATM i think that the twins are looking like they are rated in the second round, no shame in that with both having decent skill sets within that range..
Still early days watching the U18’s but from what I’ve seen so far there’s a good batch of players that are ahead of them with much better talent than what both of them possess have atm, both don’t really have the necessary the qualities that our list actually requires, not to say that 1 or both won’t be recruited but I’d be taking the best players available in the top 25…
See what happens…

I think it is a bit like teams looking at a Dave Cuningham or Lochie O'Brien who show glimpses rather than recruiting a Josh Dunkley who continually found the ball but had average disposal. I am backing the guys that can find the footy but still need to grow into their frames.

 

[jimsta10]

why cant we advise the campo team to have the boy placed on ice for the remainder of the season?

 

[DangerousD]

We've still got our first and second round picks. The ideal trade would be to bump our first rounder up a bit (to get ahead of Ben) and give up the second rounder for a bunch of later picks. Austin is going to earn his money this off season but if we can come away with a pick in the teens and 2x campo brothers that will be a good result.

Add to that a best 22 player via FA or trade and you’ve got a deal.

 

[DangerousD]

I think it is a bit like teams looking at a Dave Cuningham or Lochie O'Brien who show glimpses rather than recruiting a Josh Dunkley who continually found the ball but had average disposal. I am backing the guys that can find the footy but still need to grow into their frames.

Most years i hear the same talk from lots of the recruiters, whatever a player is now, he will most likely become later, dont expect players who can’t find the ball at lower levels to all of a sudden find it at harder levels.
Then obviously trying to decide what players will actually take the next step up is the challenge, i was reading Graham Miiers draft bio a few months back, as I remember raising his name in his draft year just based on stats, his career at the Cats is the same as he was in U/18s, i guess people were just put off at his size or his position.

I think the twins will be great for us

 

[Coops93]

Speed would be nice, but it isn't the be all end all. You can still provide run and carry without being a 11 second 100m type.

Walsh isn't that fast, but he adds run to whatever position he's in. Wing, midfield whatever he provides movement and runs hard. Acres isn't hugely fast but gets end to end faster than most of the league. Effort running burns more guys off than pure speed.

They don't have to have elite speed to improve the running capacity of their position.

 

[marcmurphy3]

Most years i hear the same talk from lots of the recruiters, whatever a player is now, he will most likely become later, dont expect players who can’t find the ball at lower levels to all of a sudden find it at harder levels.
Then obviously trying to decide what players will actually take the next step up is the challenge, i was reading Graham Miiers draft bio a few months back, as I remember raising his name in his draft year just based on stats, his career at the Cats is the same as he was in U/18s, i guess people were just put off at his size or his position.

I think the twins will be great for us

The explosive player, who win lots of the ball, with great disposal is pretty rare across the whole competition. As far as the draft goes, if you aren't picking in the top 5-10, history has shown you can pretty much rule out getting that player. You have the odd exception like Chad Warner but it's rare.

Mid-Late first round you usually have to pick between those traits. You can go the high ceiling low floor type like David Cunningham. Good kick, explosive, can't find the ball. Or the high floor-lower ceiling type like an Ollie Holands. Decent kick wins the ball, not particularly quick, reliable.

So, while the Campo twins don't perfectly fit our needs, I doubt there is going to be a player available at our first that does. We could probably get someone with more upside, but less likely to make it overall.

 

[marcmurphy3]

Even if the points system changes, I still expect us to land both Campo's. There will still be enough value in us taking them.

Right now we have a 1st, a 2nd round pick, plus some late picks. With that I expect us to be able to land 3 players in the first 2 rounds. 2 Campos plus 1 other.

Where a change to the points system could impact us, is how high up the draft, we can pick that 3rd player. Right now there's a chance we take a 1st round pick before Ben is bid on either by trading up or the bid coming after. We then use what's left to match bids for the twins

If the points system changes, we probably need to turn that first into enough points to match bids on the twins, but should still have enough collateral left to take another pick somewhere mid-late in the 2nd round.

 

[RPCB]

Even if the points system changes, I still expect us to land both Campo's. There will still be enough value in us taking them.

Right now we have a 1st, a 2nd round pick, plus some late picks. With that I expect us to be able to land 3 players in the first 2 rounds. 2 Campos plus 1 other.

Where a change to the points system could impact us, is how high up the draft, we can pick that 3rd player. Right now there's a chance we take a 1st round pick before Ben is bid on either by trading up or the bid coming after. We then use what's left to match bids for the twins

If the points system changes, we probably need to turn that first into enough points to match bids on the twins, but should still have enough collateral left to take another pick somewhere mid-late in the 2nd round.

Especially if both players are shut down for the year, because then what will happen is no club/s will try to draft them.

 

[branedotorg]

I think it is a bit like teams looking at a Dave Cuningham or Lochie O'Brien who show glimpses rather than recruiting a Josh Dunkley who continually found the ball but had average disposal. I am backing the guys that can find the footy but still need to grow into their frames.

High floor vs high ceiling.

Biggest issue for me with the SOS years, I wanted Brodie and LDU over Dow and SPS because i value structured teams and defined roles over bottom aged mercurial talent.

Doesn't mean it always works but if you build for stability and take less risks with your blue chip picks you can go completely off-piste with your 2nds, 3rds and rookie selections.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

If the AFL get rid of the discount for Father-Son picks, then they become just another player in the pool as far as I’m concerned.

Looking at our list needs, who are the best players to complement what we have and contribute over the next decade? If we genuinely believe that’s the Campo boys when our picks come up, great, take them. Otherwise, we wish them luck and pick the players we need.

The best chance for us to get them is for other clubs to assume we’ll be taking them so not to bother doing their homework and letting them slide well below what they’re worth.


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It's this kind of thinking which is exactly why you shouldn't remove the discount / ability to match with later picks.

We need to keep the romance of father son alive. It's a unique and great aspect of our game.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

If the AFL get rid of the discount for Father-Son picks, then they become just another player in the pool as far as I’m concerned

Just being able to match is a bonus though. It's effectively an automated upgrade on whatever picks are used to match with

 

[ray8182]

ATM i think that the twins are looking like they are rated in the second round, no shame in that with both having decent skill sets within that range..
Still early days watching the U18’s but from what I’ve seen so far there’s a good batch of players that are ahead of them with much better talent than what both of them possess have atm, both don’t really have the necessary the qualities that our list actually requires, not to say that 1 or both won’t be recruited but I’d be taking the best players available in the top 25…
See what happens…

If either of Ben or Lucas was bid on in the first round l wouldn’t match the bid.

I would not compromise our first round pick for them. I would actually like to move our second round pick higher and try and have 2 picks before them as I rate them mid to late second round.

There’s some really good talent in this draft. The top 30 should be pretty good.


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[The Defender]

Premier data released some Cody Walker highlights from his Echuca snr debut

 

[Christou2Kouta]

It's this kind of thinking which is exactly why you shouldn't remove the discount / ability to match with later picks.

We need to keep the romance of father son alive. It's a unique and great aspect of our game.

I agree. Without a discount it becomes helpful to:

• match bids on highly rated players that you otherwise might not get access to (like Cody Walker).
• plan your draft priorities. If you know you have the two Campos coming and you get a pick before them being bid on, you can prioritise a KPP with that pick.

But it will remove the incentive to roll the dice on a player that you're not deadset on.

 

[Stamos]

Just being able to match is a bonus though. It's effectively an automated upgrade on whatever picks are used to match with

A discount is necessary to be able to match a bid though, especially with what it seems like the points will be, either this year or next (ie only points values on top 40 picks only).

 

[Coops93]

Premier data released some Cody Walker highlights from his Echuca snr debut

 

[Coops93]

If either of Ben or Lucas was bid on in the first round l wouldn’t match the bid.

I would not compromise our first round pick for them. I would actually like to move our second round pick higher and try and have 2 picks before them as I rate them mid to late second round.

There’s some really good talent in this draft. The top 30 should be pretty good.


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Don't agree with this.

Firstly because Ben is rated as a first round by most so that just flat makes sense to match a bid, but secondly it's a bad precedent to set to other kids in your academy/f/s program in that you're flimsy with your commitment to them, which isn't good for the former player or the other kids in the room.

The Edwards v Crows issue was a good example, the Crows have damaged their relationship with a former champion because they messed around with Luke. You don't really want to be alienating your greats over a bid match of pick 12 vs pick 15. Granted if it's something crazy like pick 5 then a decision needs to be made, but mostly you'll match a bid in the general vicinity of their value, even if it's a couple picks higher than expected.

Even then clubs don't normally bid that far out from their true rating anyway, they don't want to pick a kid with a 27 value at pick 13 just to mess with a club.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]