Carlton wants $10m from AFL

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This whole situation reminded me of a discussion I had a while back over equilisation of funds and why it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Its interesting that the person I had the discussion with, who was advocating allowing financially insecure clubs to fold, is a Carlton supporter.

The thread is here and I've reproduced it below. This shows why the AFL won't ever let Carlton fold. Even hardcore supporters would walk away from the game if their club folded.


Deej said:
In reality if my club was struggling the last thing I'd want is a handout, and the first thing I'd want is for the club to find a way to get itself back into a position of power off it's own bat, through good management.

Honestly if Carlton were looking like going out of business in 10 years time I would restructure my own business delegating some responsibilities to people I could trust, and I'd try to take the reins up at carlton myself. It'd absolutely make me sick if Carlton needed handouts to compete, and I'd work day/night for the next 30yrs to get carlton into a position to kick heads - WITHOUT HELP.

You still didn't answer the question. I wasn't asking what you would do if Carlton were in trouble. I was asking what you would do if Carlton went out of business? Would you then be cheering the AFL for introducing an open slather system, or would you be bitter about the fact you've lost the club you love? My guess is the latter.

Would you then decide that, as the AFL is the best football league in the country, to follow another team? Or would you drift away from the sport? Would you start following state leagues and only occasionally glimpse at whats occuring in the national league? If you answered yes for the last two questions, then you'd understand why the AFL doesn't want an open slather system, and wants to be seen to be doing everything it can to help struggling clubs. Sure, they may not survive despite their best efforts, but the system we have in place is the best system to ensure they have a fighting chance of survival.

Team support is the lifeblood of the AFL. Losing teams from the league will cause a drop in attendences as supporters of the lost clubs drift away from the AFL. So you may say, "That will never happen to my club" but what if it did? What if one or more of the big Victorian clubs folded? Ratings and attendences would drop significantly, corporate support would decrease due to a decreased marketability of the product and come the next broadcasting agreement there'd be no more $100 mil five year deals. The AFL would be digging itself a hole it couldn't get itself out of.

What I really object to about the implications of a free market in the AFL is that it is gone into in the knowledge that the smaller club do not stand a realistic chance of competing against the larger clubs. Its been proven in the English Premier League, with the same teams lifting the silverware each season. That may be fine for a country with a population as big as the U.K. and it's also fine for a sport as big globally as soccer. At least teams in the EPL have an opportunity to compete for a spot in the FA Cup (although little chance of winning it), the Champions League and UEFA cup, which at least keeps some interest in the league for supporters of lesser clubs.

Aussie Rules, on the other hand, only has is the Premiership. By turning it into something that only a handfull of teams realistically have the opporltunity to win, you're killing the game. If a free market occurs, over time people will drift away from the game in the knowledge their club has no opportunity to win the Cup. Some may chase glory and bankrupt themselves in doing so, trying to compete with the big boys. It will occur slowly, but over time they'll be complaining as to why the fantastic 10 team competition doesn't draw crowds or ratings like it once did, because a large chunk of the Victorian market has walked away. When this happens, advertising revenue for TV will dry up and corporate sponsorship won't be seen as such a boon when a large slice of Australian Footballs largest market doesn't care about the national competition.

Besides, if a large number of Victorian clubs went out of business, Collingwood or Carlton might win ten Premierships in a row, but who else will care? If a Port Adelaide supporter tells you they've won fifty trillion SANFL Premierships, whats your reaction? Try to lord it over a supporter of a club that folded and is now playing in the VFL and where will it get you? They'll have no attatchment to the league and probably just tell you to f**k off.
 
MeeSo said:
The AFL's first priority is a successful comp. Fairness is irrelevant. A successful Carlton is capable of generating more money than a successful North or Bulldogs so they are treated differently. It may no be fair but it's the way it is.

Exactly right. The solution: The West Sydney Blues. Think about it - a club with already a medium sized support base and the will to actually succeed. Certainly better than sending a Victorian club with no fans there.
 
Rob said:
Exactly right. The solution: The West Sydney Blues. Think about it - a club with already a medium sized support base and the will to actually succeed. Certainly better than sending a Victorian club with no fans there.
What happens if the venture fails? Where do all those fans go then?
 

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mediumsizered said:
The clubs supporters have been called to arms financially and have stood up to be counted, but $12 million was a lot to try to wipe off. The fact that $5 million of that has been paid off is a fantastic effort, but unfortunately the interest payments on the balance of the debt and the payments on Optus Oval are accounting for too much of the club's cash flow.

Your club has got a lot of gall to even ask for assistance over and above the CBF. You expect after lighting the funeral pyres under financially struggling clubs in the past (which in the case of Hawthorn was created by Carlton when they put the squeeze on them over Princess Park) that the other 15 clubs via the AFL are now going to pay for your profligate expenditures. Your club presently has the highest paid player in the AFL, the highest paid coach in the AFL, excuse me but it just doesn't sound like a club endeavouring to get its house in order.

Once you've trimmed your budget if you still can't meet your creditors' bills perhaps then you should qualify for CBF assistance. If you want assistance above what is on offer from the CBF then you shouldn't be in the AFL. As it is your club was given a $2.5 million gift for moving to Telstra Dome and giving you more assistance is in reality the equivalent of throwing good money after bad. The last money that you hypocritical parasites should get is in buying your licence back and giving it to Southport as the new 16th club in the competition.
 
Rob said:
Exactly right. The solution: The West Sydney Blues. Think about it - a club with already a medium sized support base and the will to actually succeed. Certainly better than sending a Victorian club with no fans there.
What are the AFL going to do about Freo, though? 11 seasons in the competition, one very disappointing final, no closer to another one. Maybe Perth can't sustain 2 teams. The depth of talent is obviously not great in the West. Should they be moved to Darwin? Maybe they could be called the Darwin Stubbies.
 
Vandenbergfan said:
Your club has got a lot of gall to even ask for assistance over and above the CBF. You expect after lighting the funeral pyres under financially struggling clubs in the past (which in the case of Hawthorn was created by Carlton when they put the squeeze on them over Princess Park) that the other 15 clubs via the AFL are now going to pay for your profligate expenditures. Your club presently has the highest paid player in the AFL, the highest paid coach in the AFL, excuse me but it just doesn't sound like a club endeavouring to get its house in order.

Once you've trimmed your budget if you still can't meet your creditors' bills perhaps then you should qualify for CBF assistance. If you want assistance above what is on offer from the CBF then you shouldn't be in the AFL. As it is your club was given a $2.5 million gift for moving to Telstra Dome and giving you more assistance is in reality the equivalent of throwing good money after bad. The last money that you hypocritical parasites should get is in buying your licence back and giving it to Southport as the new 16th club in the competition.
On what do you base the statement that Carlton has the highest paid coach in the AFL. Because you are way off the mark. I can point to 3 coaches that are all on more money than what Pagan is. No prizes for guessing who they are because it is pretty damn obvious. Agreed Kouta is most likely the highest paid player in the competition, but after his contract finishes at the end of this season, Carlton's highest paid player probably won't even be in the top 10 of the AFL's highest paid players. Kouta's contract was backended and he is receiving money that he should have been receiving in previous years.

If you really think selling a Victorian team's licence to a non-Victorian is in the best interests of your team, you are sadly mistaken. It is nigh on impossible for Victorian teams to win premierships now. It will be even harder if another cashed up non-Victorian team is granted a licence. I have no doubt in suggesting that should Victorian teams be relocated or booted from the AFL in the future, your team would go before mine.
 
mediumsizered said:
What are the AFL going to do about Freo, though? 11 seasons in the competition, one very disappointing final, no closer to another one. Maybe Perth can't sustain 2 teams. The depth of talent is obviously not great in the West. Should they be moved to Darwin? Maybe they could be called the Darwin Stubbies.

funny thing is Freo still have a loads of members. wonder how many of carltons front running supporters will still support their club after a few more years of mediocrity.
 
good points moistie.

wax lyrical all you like about past premierships, get :D:D:D:Dy about their past behaviour, all that crap is irrelevant. market forces dictate the AFLs behaviour here, and this is the market reality:

carlton may be one team of 16, but represent alot more than 1/16th of the AFL market. they have more supporters and higher ratings than most other clubs, and hence the AFL can less afford threats on their supporter group.

they can well survive being down the bottom for a while. 10 or 20 years even. while they are they are sleeping giants, and with good performances you will see sellouts once again.

but they cant risk their death or even relocation. too many would be lost to the sport, to much damage would be done to the ratings and turnstiles.

they MIGHT risk a merger, but even that is probably too risky.

this is why carlton will be saved.
 
bangko-bangko said:
funny thing is Freo still have a loads of members. wonder how many of carltons front running supporters will still support their club after a few more years of mediocrity.
I would suggest a few more than followed St Kilda through the 70s, 80s & 90s and a few more than will be following St Kilda when they head back down the ladder in the next couple of years following the retirement of Harvey, Gehrig,Thompson, Hamill and possibly poor old Kosi when his body says no more.
BTW, how's Stevie Milne travelling at the moment?
 
mediumsizered said:
What are the AFL going to do about Freo, though? 11 seasons in the competition, one very disappointing final, no closer to another one. Maybe Perth can't sustain 2 teams. The depth of talent is obviously not great in the West. Should they be moved to Darwin? Maybe they could be called the Darwin Stubbies.

hehe....35,000 members, million dollar profits.

You wish you were in Freo's position. We might be sh*t, but at least we don't have our hand out for charity! :D
 
Rob said:
hehe....35,000 members, million dollar profits.

You wish you were in Freo's position. We might be sh*t, but at least we don't have our hand out for charity! :D
Million dollar profits have won Collingwood a lot of premierships in recent times, haven't they? As have huge memberships too, haven't they? Fascinating that Brisbane were making losses when they won their first couple of premierships, and their membership wasn't as high as Freo's. Memberships and profits, that is how we measure success, not premierships. If I didn't know better I would have thought you were a Collingwood supporter.
BTW, having your memberships topped up by Eagles supporters so they can get access to Subiaco, is not a true indication of your support.
 
mediumsizered said:
I would suggest a few more than followed St Kilda through the 70s, 80s & 90s and a few more than will be following St Kilda when they head back down the ladder in the next couple of years following the retirement of Harvey, Gehrig,Thompson, Hamill and possibly poor old Kosi when his body says no more.
BTW, how's Stevie Milne travelling at the moment?

I'm not sure what you point is mate, but the fact is the saints suporters are more loyal than mosts teams supporters. I think we have proven that we stick by our side no matter what. Somehow i don't think that this the case with Carlton. I would expect many of your supporters have already jumped off the sinking ship, never to return.
 

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mediumsizered said:
Million dollar profits have won Collingwood a lot of premierships in recent times, haven't they? As have huge memberships too, haven't they? Fascinating that Brisbane were making losses when they won their first couple of premierships, and their membership wasn't as high as Freo's. Memberships and profits, that is how we measure success, not premierships. If I didn't know better I would have thought you were a Collingwood supporter.

Fact remains your club is a complete basketcase both on field and off it. A bit like Alan Bond. Might have past glories, but it all means sh*t when they're not happening anymore.

We might be sh*t on field, but at least we're not begging for food.

BTW, having your memberships topped up by Eagles supporters so they can get access to Subiaco, is not a true indication of your support.

Yep, all those eagles supporters booing Judd a week ago. :rolleyes:
 
bangko-bangko said:
I'm not sure what you point is mate, but the fact is the saints suporters are more loyal than mosts teams supporters. I think we have proven that we stick by our side no matter what. Somehow i don't think that this the case with Carlton. I would expect many of your supporters have already jumped off the sinking ship, never to return.
Funny thing is, even with our numbers being down this year, currently just over 27k, this is more than we ever had during our successful years (70s, 80s & 90s). This suggests to me they are sticking better during the bad years than they did during the good years.

St Kilda supporters may have stuck by their side in years gone by, but they didn't do it by buying memberships. Maybe they were out there but they weren't prepared to part with their hard earned.
 
hotpie said:
We were never 10 mil in the red.

Accordingly, to Smorgon any talk of Carlton being insolvent is just a media beat-up, so presumably the talk of needing $10 million is just so as they can top up and buy a coach and some players from other clubs.
 
medusala said:
North must wonder why they have to cut costs and sell home games.

I do not feel anything really. I want my club to stand on its own feet in the short-term so it had to get accustom to changing how they managed the footy club and they had to find out where the bear minimum line is. I do not think Carlton has made ANY sacrifices so they have the silver spoon still lodged in their rear-end.

It sucks that we couldn't bring Davey as a rookie when we first brought him over because we were tightening the belt and couldn't take on rookies that year, but the AFL has different conditions on the support now than a few years ago.

AFL and the clubs should do what they feel is the right thing, they should help Carlton if they need the assistance but $10m in one year is a huge sum of money for one club.
 
Tas said:
AFL and the clubs should do what they feel is the right thing, they should help Carlton if they need the assistance but $10m in one year is a huge sum of money for one club.

How can the AFL justify paying off Carltons debt? Surely then Richmond, North etc would all demand their debts be paid off as well. Not only that but Hawthorn and the Saints had their contracts broken by the AFL over Waverley and yet received much less than $10m. The Hawks had many times the lease left than the Blues yet will have received less than half of the cash. Those two will want a truckload of cash.

Half of the clubs will be queuing up for huge paydays.

Southport is allegedly willing to pay $400k a game. There's $1.2m for 3 games. That will do.

Financial assistance is one thing. Paying off their debt in full is an absolute joke.
 
If Carlton get 10 million, West Coast and Freo are more than entitled to ask for their 10 million each so we can get out 65,000 seat stadium in Burswood. :cool:
 

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Carlton wants $10m from AFL

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