Champion Data's assessment of "elite" players

[Ceehook]

i think we all do that.

but when broadcasters devote 50% of their footy 'analysis' to champion data stats, its hard to ignore or forget it.

in 2020 Dusty wasn't elite , just you remember that

nah seriously

I've watched the David King analysis plenty of times
there are times when he has nailed it and it would be a great education for plenty
and us footy tragics can't get enough

but the longer you watch them you realise they have to come up with "gem" every game or every week ...

they can't do it so they have to plug the gap with some lame shit

having been in junior coaching and low grade senior coaching
and then you go to an AFL game and druel over the skills , the fitness , the set plays ( that you can see )
and discuss endlessly

commentators quickly become irrelevant

 

[CaptchaProofBot]

don't take these as gospels...they're just possibles

Oscar Allen | AFL

Follow Oscar Allen's progress through AFL

www.westcoasteagles.com.au

Elite in tackles for a key forward (a mid like Jack Steele might have 1000 tackles but allen is not being compared to a mid, he's being compared to other key forwards)

Mason Cox | AFL

Follow Mason Cox's progress through AFL

www.collingwoodfc.com.au

Elite for Goal Accuracy for a key forward

As I said in the Richmond board, you could play just 5 games to qualify, kick 5.0 goals straight.....AND 2 millions out on the full, you'd still get %100 accuracy....hey presto....elite.

So when CD claims someone is elite...that player is not elite as in the complete sense...it's just some ridiculously obscure criteria that some spud miraculously qualified for....hey presto.....elite!!!

vindicated:
"Cox gained elite status this year due to his outstanding goalkicking accuracy — he finished 2020 with 14.2 from 11 game — and pack-marking ability — he averaged the fourth-most contested marks in the competition (2.1 per game) — last season."

Mason Cox’s cheeky response to surprise ‘elite’ rating

Mason Cox’s response to his ‘elite’ rating was, well, elite

www.foxsports.com.au

Obviouslly, CD can't be f***ed explaining to plebs why each player was listed as elite like: Cox gained elite status this year due to his outstanding goalkicking accuracy, no they'll just list Cox.....as clickbait.

 

[WaywardSonSon]

well maybe next time pick out a few unlucky players from a few different clubs rather than just sooking about a guy from your team

When I need your feedback I'll ask for it Stan Darsh.

 

[The 747]

vindicated:
"Cox gained elite status this year due to his outstanding goalkicking accuracy — he finished 2020 with 14.2 from 11 game — and pack-marking ability — he averaged the fourth-most contested marks in the competition (2.1 per game) — last season."

Mason Cox’s cheeky response to surprise ‘elite’ rating

Mason Cox’s response to his ‘elite’ rating was, well, elite

www.foxsports.com.au

Obviouslly, CD can't be f***ed explaining to plebs why each player was listed as elite like: Cox gained elite status this year due to his outstanding goalkicking accuracy, no they'll just list Cox.....as clickbait.

So just to consider this a little, if a player on average takes 2 contested marks per game and kicks 1.1 from 2 kicks. And that is all he does in the game. He is therefore elite.

 

[PT Bar None]

Ah, yes. The desire to conjure order from chaos by distilling a complex game down into 44 individual games though counting things that happened on the field that are easy to count.



The dance continues...

 

[theyellowsash]

So just to consider this a little, if a player on average takes 2 contested marks per game and kicks 1.1 from 2 kicks. And that is all he does in the game. He is therefore elite.

So a team with 6 elite forwards can count on scoring 6.6 a game. sounds legit.

 

[The 747]

So a team with 6 elite forwards can count on scoring 6.6 a game. sounds legit.

If Gary Rohan gets one handball in a game, and it hits a target, I guess that makes him "elite by hand" no?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Remember when Champion Data said Melbourne had the best list in the league?

I tuned them out after that.

 

[The 747]

Remember when Champion Data said Melbourne had the best list in the league?

I tuned them out after that.

According to Champion Data this post is 'elite'

 

[JHF1870]

They use a heap of proprietary stats we're not allowed to know about and could never understand anyway.

Proximity to pressure stat with inverse properties

 

[00Stinger]

When I need your feedback I'll ask for it Stan Darsh.

lol

I can't hate on a South Park quote

 

[Some Idiot]

I see Champion Data has released a farcical article relating to what they deem to be the "elite" players of the competition. Now, don't get me wrong, I've been a Fremantle supporter for 26 years, and I love our players dearly, but surely my complaint is not fully grounded in supporter bias?!! How, in any form of reality, is Sam Collins deemed to be an elite defender, whilst Luke Ryan is not?!! Now Sam Collins has grown to be an exceptional player, but let's just cast our eye over Luke's statistics for the 2020 Home-and-Away season, shall we?

[TD valign="middle"] 2020 Statistical Rankings​

	● Ranked 12th in Total Metres Gained	● Ranked 2nd in Total Intercepts
● Ranked 3rd in Kicks Per Game	● Ranked 1st in Rebound 50s Per Game
● Ranked 15th in Effective Disposals % Per Game	● Ranked 8th in Metres Gained Per Game
● Ranked 1st in Intercepts Per Game	● Ranked 9th in Total Kicks
● Ranked 19th in Total Marks	● Ranked 1st in Total Rebound 50s

[/TD]

Couple these with the fact he was selected in the All Australian Team AND won the club's Best and Fairest award... if that's not elite, I don't know what is!!

I think Luke Ryan was put in the general defender category and Sam Collins has been put in the key defender category and they are thus judged by different statistical categories to each other.

 

[Scorpus]

Didn't someone discover that in their "Player Ratings" that some actually important action on the field was deemed worthless by Champion Data?

It was something like uncontested possessions or uncontested marks... something like that contributed zero to a player's score

 

[Some Idiot]

Pretty sure they don't rate Uncontested possessions that aren't part of a scoring chain. So a player can nail every kick but if it breaks down further afield they get nothing.

 

[WaywardSonSon]

I think Luke Ryan was put in the general defender category and Sam Collins has been put in the key defender category and they are thus judged by different statistical categories to each other.

Okay, that's logical. So which general defenders were deemed to be superior players than Luke Ryan?

 

[CaptchaProofBot]

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT....

Champion Data provides explanation for surprising 'elite' rankings

Champion Data's Daniel Hoyne explains why Mason Cox received an elite ranking.

www.sen.com.au

honestly had he just said well Cox got in on Goal Accuracy...nice and simple...instead it's more mumbo jumbo...to make CD sound more mythical...elitist....only the PROS at CD can fully appreciate.

 

[juss]

vindicated:
"Cox gained elite status this year due to his outstanding goalkicking accuracy — he finished 2020 with 14.2 from 11 game — and pack-marking ability — he averaged the fourth-most contested marks in the competition (2.1 per game) — last season."

Mason Cox’s cheeky response to surprise ‘elite’ rating

Mason Cox’s response to his ‘elite’ rating was, well, elite

www.foxsports.com.au

Obviouslly, CD can't be f***ed explaining to plebs why each player was listed as elite like: Cox gained elite status this year due to his outstanding goalkicking accuracy, no they'll just list Cox.....as clickbait.

This is what I think some people struggle to understand and they get very subjective and personal with it. There's no subjectivity in CD ratings, it's not CD's "opinion" of who is elite. It's an objective statistical model. There's obviously some flaws and bugs in the model, but every one of their players would be able to be explained by data.

To use Cox as an example, it looks like he's elite based on exceptional results in 2 categories, contested marking and goal accuracy, my question on the model would be does being elite in 2 categories automatically qualify someone as elite even if they are below average in other categories for example.

It doesn't really hold much merit or use in real world application, but it's an absolute click bait monster for CD every year and that's what they're sucking people into.

When people get miffed and ask "WHERE IS MY TEAM'S PLAYER?!?!?" It's a simple answer - their data wasn't good enough to qualify.

 

[The 747]

This is what I think some people struggle to understand and they get very subjective and personal with it. There's no subjectivity in CD ratings, it's not CD's "opinion" of who is elite. It's an objective statistical model. There's obviously some flaws and bugs in the model, but every one of their players would be able to be explained by data.

To use Cox as an example, it looks like he's elite based on exceptional results in 2 categories, contested marking and goal accuracy, my question on the model would be does being elite in 2 categories automatically qualify someone as elite even if they are below average in other categories for example.

It doesn't really hold much merit or use in real world application, but it's an absolute click bait monster for CD every year and that's what they're sucking people into.

When people get miffed and ask "WHERE IS MY TEAM'S PLAYER?!?!?" It's a simple answer - their data wasn't good enough to qualify.

Rubbish, the ratings are based on statistics which are classified by a person, ie subjectively. Goals and behinds are objective (arguably). A person makes a call about whether a possession is contested or uncontested, whether a disposal is effective or ineffective, whether a mark is contested or uncontested, whether a hit out is to advantage or not.

 

[CaptchaProofBot]

so CD values contested marks...CM



Taberner, Daniher not elite...but Cox is....

Daniher easy, he played only 4 games, need minimum 5.
Taberner played 16 !!!

full disclosures: I go for the Tigs.

 

[Aphrodite]

Could someone post the list of players? Hard to discuss when I don't know who Champion Data labelled as elite.

Here you go RUNVS

 

[Beerfish]

Oh sure NOW Saad's elite..

 

[theyellowsash]

This is what I think some people struggle to understand and they get very subjective and personal with it. There's no subjectivity in CD ratings, it's not CD's "opinion" of who is elite. It's an objective statistical model. There's obviously some flaws and bugs in the model, but every one of their players would be able to be explained by data.

To use Cox as an example, it looks like he's elite based on exceptional results in 2 categories, contested marking and goal accuracy, my question on the model would be does being elite in 2 categories automatically qualify someone as elite even if they are below average in other categories for example.

It doesn't really hold much merit or use in real world application, but it's an absolute click bait monster for CD every year and that's what they're sucking people into.

When people get miffed and ask "WHERE IS MY TEAM'S PLAYER?!?!?" It's a simple answer - their data wasn't good enough to qualify.

sure, if using the 3 kicks a game you get efficiently makes you elite. compare cox to tom lynch.

sure i will freely admit that cox is a significantly better kick for goal within 30m (about his range), and gets a higher % of his marks contested (though lynch averages more overall.

but cox averages 1.3g, 0.2b and 0.3a a game. Basically on average he contributes 10 points a game. Lynch averages 1.7g, 1.4b and 0.4a, basically 14 points a game. and thats not to say anything about all the other stats lynch beats him in, like inside 50s, score involvements, meters gained, marks inside 50, tackles, and so on. its obvious that lynch has a bigger impact. and no i wouldnt call lynch's 2020 particularly good. he was pretty average by any measure.

cox is certainly efficient in front of goal, and maybe a good contested mark, and thats it. by CD's admission, thats it. and thats enough to be an elite forward in the competition? just, no. the stats arent the problem, its CD deciding that 1 stat can make a player elite, and its why the rest of us actually watch the footy. clearly buckley didnt think the stats mattered, given he only played his 'elite' key forward for barely half the games even without any other option.

let me put it another way. using the way CD defined cox as elite, cox is also more elite than buddy franklin who is not a particularly efficient kick. let that sink in.

 

[RUNVS]

Here you go RUNVS

Thanks a lot. Looking at Rowell I wonder how many second year players who have played under 10 games have ever been classified as elite. Not saying I disagree with it but it is a big call.

 

[CaptchaProofBot]

 

[Roby]

Thanks a lot. Looking at Rowell I wonder how many second year players who have played under 10 games have ever been classified as elite. Not saying I disagree with it but it is a big call.

I think Will Phillips will do even better than Rowell this year.