Unofficial Preview Changes & discussion v the Hawks @ MCG after our Sabbatical.

[Elixuh]

I've had in my mind for some time that you ,Elixuh , are Fagan's burner account.

You know too much of what is going on.

And the same blind spot stubbornness of the old man.

I'm onto you.

 

[JasRulz63]

I think I’ve been one of the main people talking about the leading to create space and everything. If he tried to do it yesterday then it very clearly didn’t work. He had done it well the past couple weeks but this was clearly one of the game where we actually needed it but it never came.

I will say that I still don’t see him being punished on the rebound with success, but I thought that I thought any other value he provided made up for his slow defensive run. It wasn’t there this week when it mattered so I’m happy to try something else now.

If we go Lohmann I think the main adjustment would be making sure we don’t bomb it high inside whenever Joe pinch hits in the ruck.


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Teams have worked out they can play the best intercepting defender on him (recent opponents have been Redman, Ballard, Doedee) who play off him knowing he's dropped a lot of pace which means they can make up to space they give him.

If we were playing against our forward line, he'd be the perfect player to sit Harris on.

 

[knaf]

One thing that I think needs to be addressed at selection (but probably won’t) is the back up ruck position. I have enjoyed Joes surprise tactics in the centre square and ball ups around the ground but the Crows were on to it. O‘Reilly monstered Joe. A few times O’Reilly just ran through the contest and took the ball as if Joe wasn’t there. Sides with better first rucks will really exploit this.

I think we need to have alternative strategies. Fort in drop Gunston. Fort no slower than Gunston so the overall mobility not effected. Gunston can coach Fort in the secret and mysterious art of running in the opposite direction to Joe.

I don’t think Gardiner is match fit. He did a great job given his fitness level. He goes out for Payne, so he gets a bit more time to build fitness in the VFL and we get a few more weeks to enjoy Froggys golden years form.

 

[martinson]

One thing that I think needs to be addressed at selection (but probably won’t) is the back up ruck position. I have enjoyed Joes surprise tactics in the centre square and ball ups around the ground but the Crows were on to it. O‘Reilly monstered Joe. A few times O’Reilly just ran through the contest and took the ball as if Joe wasn’t there. Sides with better first rucks will really exploit this.

I think we need to have alternative strategies. Fort in drop Gunston. Fort no slower than Gunston so the overall mobility not effected. Gunston can coach Fort in the secret and mysterious art of running in the opposite direction to Joe.

I don’t think Gardiner is match fit. He did a great job given his fitness level. He goes out for Payne, so he gets a bit more time to build fitness in the VFL and we get a few more weeks to enjoy Froggys golden years form.

I'm coming round to Fort as well. Gives Hipwood more freedom to not have to be the guy clearing space for the others.

Adelaide actually worked us out well.

We had Keays earmarked in a blanketing role and he surprised us by being aggressively pro active in winning his own ball. Clogged up our forward line brilliantly and assumed correctly that we just keep banging our heads doing the same thing. Exposed us on the rebound with pacey hard to catch runners around Lester, Gardener and Harris.

It's a game we'd like to have over strategy wise.

 

[KissKiss]

Arguing the number of tackles, possessions, etc for tall defenders is kinda meaningless. The really important things are did your man score and did you impact the contest. Gardiner did a reasonable defensive job and wasnt disgraced. Either way if he stays in or goes out its neither deserved nor undeserved

More important to get Payne back in the team for the extra height and pace.

 

[Gadzorks]

Wet night - players are going to drop marks and other players were involved in the passages after the marks were dropped. What Lester didn’t do was:

• give away a free kick in front of goal like Zorko (Goal Adelaide)
• give away a 50 metre penalty in the goal square like Andrews, (Goal Adelaide),
• cough up a dinky little kick in front of goals like Starcevich (Goal Adelaide)
• stand flat footed and completely fail to compete in the air against Thilthotpe like McInerney, Andrews, Starcevich and Coleman (Goal Adelaide)

He did drop two marks though, in a game where he had more tackles and pressure acts than any other defender. I think he should be safe against Hawthorn.

Nothing Lester did tonight on the negative side of his ledger came close to the egregious lapses mentioned above.

Don't forget Rich's two shocking kick outs. Was like watching West coast

 

[Elixuh]

Don't forget Rich's two shocking kick outs. Was like watching West coast

Skill errors are a bit meh

 

[dlanod]

More important to get Payne back in the team for the extra height and pace.

And his marking confidence, as weird as it sounds to say that. His efforts there this year has been fantastic after previous years where he'd just punch everything (and often to our disadvantage). The difference between Payne and Gardiner is that Gardiner is undersized, knows it, and won't take a risk. Payne now knows he's got the body, size and length, to hold his space and take the mark if the opportunity is there, which turns defence into offense immediately.

 

[knaf]

Agreed and I don’t think it was any coincidence that Andrews had his worst game for the year with Payne out. Hard to tell from TV, but I got the impression he was in two minds all night trying to cover for the two undersized defenders.

 

[Berrygood]

Time for Gunston to be given an extended 'rest', the Lester farewell tour has to end, and as much of a supporter of Rich as I have been, it's time. All too slow, all being exposed by opposition.

Payne for Lester, Gardiner gets a chance to develop form but Joyce has to come back into calculations if he fails to find it. Not having another tall to cover Thilthorpe at times on the weekend really hurt Andrews game and our defense in general. Andrews, Payne, Gardiner or Joyce, Starce, Kiddy, McKenna and Wilmot is our best back 7 going forward I believe. Prior next man up in defense. We can replace Rich with Ah Chee on the bench to offer a bit more versatility.

Gunston to be replaced by Fort. We've got a lot of tough games in the second half of the season and as good as Big O has been, he's going to need some support and relief or he'll be knackered come finals time.

Fages really has to rethink his sentimental selections. Team first.

I believe our best team coming into the second half of the season would be

Starce, Payne, Gardiner or Joyce.
Mckenna, Andrews, Kiddy
Clugg, Ashcroft, Berry
Big O, Dunkley, Neale
Bailey, Hippy, Rayner
Charlie, Joe, Linc.
Wilmot, Ah Chee, Fort, Zorko and I'd like to give Devrob the sub spot. Plenty of hb n wing coverage with Ah Chee n Wilmot so I think Dev can play a mid/fwd pressure role. His form in the Vfl has been very good racking up heaps of possessions and more importantly loads of tackles. I'd love to see him given a chance to replicate the form he had towards the end of last season and in finals.

We need a bit more balance and pace in the team, I think the team I've proposed offers that.

Please note my edit, I left Rayner out and have made adjustments. We've been beaten a bit in the midfield recently so I think Dev and Ah Chee are interchangeable as the bench and sub.

 

[twhowler]

Fagan said in his post-game pressa - "You look at all the statistics, 32 forward-half turnovers to 16, you probably should win when you do that. Sixty-six inside 50s to 47, it's the same. There were so many statistics. If you watch one of our games, (when) we get those sorts of numbers, we usually win."

That's true. But it's not a new problem.

The last 3 weeks we have been totally dominant in inside 50s and not capitalising. Essendon it was 69-39. Gold Coast it was 60-39. Late goals in those games papered over some cracks. Adelaide we again dominated 66-47 but this time against a better side we finally got the wake-up call.

We should be having a good look at our entries - how they are working, where we are kicking it etc. Our coaching mantra seems to be this is what we are capable of, we showed it this year with this personnel, let's work at doing it again. I think the best teams are more proactive. Who is holding us back? What are we doing differently and why? What do we need to change? It's more like a golf swing. You need to be constantly aware of any kinks and try to iron them out.

It would be remiss of us not to look at personnel as well though, so what could we change?

Gunston - give it time they said. I was big on him pre-season. He has had half a season to show us what he has. He has been getting worse and already had a rest in round 5. He might come good. We don't need to spend an entire season seeing if that happens. We have two easier games v Hawks and Swans. I don't mind what they try - Lester third tall. Fort third tall. Rayner third tall with Lohmann in. All viable suggestions. Richmond went shorter in late 2017 worked out okay for them. Geelong rotated a lot of players through. We have to be bold.

Rayner - anything that gets him in the game more is good, whether third tall or something else. Makes things happen.

Cockatoo - worth a shot at some point. Has earnt it through better form. Could play as 7th forward.

McCluggage - i think i am on board with getting him back to almost all wing. Should mean he delivers it more inside 50 to which he is generally exceptional at, so this would help as well in terms of capitalising.

Berry - turned in a shocker. Has been pretty good lately. But his kicking is a weakness. Would we be better served by Ah Chee? He deserves a shot in my view.

Beyond the forward half / delivery to it, i'd have my eye on:

Rich - please no more kick ins. How can our coaching group not see this? I do fear he is holding us back overall. Cracking goal early. But our defence looked better without him with either Wilmot or Prior. I am happy to hold with him for now but is Fagan at least open to dropping him?

Ashcroft - looked tired to me. I know we had the bye coming up. But give the kid the odd rest.

So OUT Gunston / Lester or Gardiner
IN Lohmann or Fort or Cockatoo / Payne

ON NOTICE Rich, Berry

NEXT IN Ah Chee, Fort, Lohmann, Prior, Cockatoo.

Oh and can we talk about our sub approach? Madden is a baffling sub generally. Then waiting so long to put him on. Not sure what A) what the plan was pre game, as in who he would go on for - if Rich or Kiddy were iffy don't play them. And B) coming on when he did he was on a hiding to nothing.

Cockatoo sub would have made sense. But having made the decision to make it Madden SURELY when we couldn't convert in the third quarter, the move should have been Madden goes to half back, Coleman goes to small forward where he started his career. Coaching group been much better this year, loved how they responded in the Pies game for example, but this gave me Essendon vibes last year, just NO ability to think outside the box during a match.

 

[Nathan Barley]

When you have repeat inside 50s due to winning the ball back 50-75m out they're not really ever going to be that effective offensively but definitely helps us concede less.

I think the big improvement would be scoring more from clearances up the ground by getting more clearances to the outside and using it better but we're not a skilful team

 

[martinson]

Time for Gunston to be given an extended 'rest', the Lester farewell tour has to end, and as much of a supporter of Rich as I have been, it's time. All too slow, all being exposed by opposition.

Payne for Lester, Gardiner gets a chance to develop form but Joyce has to come back into calculations if he fails to find it. Not having another tall to cover Thilthorpe at times on the weekend really hurt Andrews game and our defense in general. Andrews, Payne, Gardiner or Joyce, Starce, Kiddy, McKenna and Wilmot is our best back 7 going forward I believe. Prior next man up in defense. We can replace Rich with Ah Chee on the bench to offer a bit more versatility.

Gunston to be replaced by Fort. We've got a lot of tough games in the second half of the season and as good as Big O has been, he's going to need some support and relief or he'll be knackered come finals time.

Fages really has to rethink his sentimental selections. Team first.

I believe our best team coming into the second half of the season would be

Starce, Payne, Gardiner or Joyce.
Mckenna, Andrews, Kiddy
Clugg, Ashcroft, Berry
Big O, Dunkley, Neale
Bailey, Hippy, Zorko
Charlie, Joe, Linc.
Wilmot, Ah Chee, Fort, and I'd like to give Devrob the last bench spot. Plenty of hb n wing coverage with Ah Chee n Wilmot so I think Dev can play a mid/fwd pressure role. His form in the Vfl has been very good racking up heaps of possessions and more importantly loads of tackles. I'd love to see him given a chance to replicate the form he had towards the end of last season and in finals.

We need a bit more balance and pace in the team, I think the team I've proposed offers that.

No Cam ?

 

[twhowler]

When you have repeat inside 50s due to winning the ball back 50-75m out they're not really ever going to be that effective offensively but definitely helps us concede less.

I think the big improvement would be scoring more from clearances up the ground by getting more clearances to the outside and using it better but we're not a skilful team

I think this is true to an extent. Crowded forward line. But it doesn't quite explain to me SUCH a low return. Maybe a big part of this week was goalkicking? Off the top of my head Gunston missed 2 pretty easy ones. Hippy and Ashcroft missed sodas. Daniher a relatively easy one. Coleman had an okay chance on the run but missed by a mile. Bad goalkicking definitely spreads.

The return Adelaide got from their inside 50s was concerning. Some good goals. But also it seems when we camp the ball in our inside 50, when it does get out we are very exposed. Maybe it's as simple as an extra number staying back? It's not as if we need more players in our forward 50, it gets so crowded.

 

[Berrygood]

No Cam ?

Yeah, completely forgot about him, will edit previous post.

 

[Nathan Barley]

I think this is true to an extent. Crowded forward line. But it doesn't quite explain to me SUCH a low return. Maybe a big part of this week was goalkicking? Off the top of my head Gunston missed 2 pretty easy ones. Hippy and Ashcroft missed sodas. Daniher a relatively easy one. Coleman had an okay chance on the run but missed by a mile. Bad goalkicking definitely spreads.

The return Adelaide got from their inside 50s was concerning. Some good goals. But also it seems when we camp the ball in our inside 50, when it does get out we are very exposed. Maybe it's as simple as an extra number staying back? It's not as if we need more players in our forward 50, it gets so crowded.

We had 10 scores from about 20 inside 50s in the third. 50% is perfectly reasonable

I think our forwards on top of goal kicking had a poor match. Not many 1 on 1 wins inside 50 last night

 

[JasRulz63]

I think this is true to an extent. Crowded forward line. But it doesn't quite explain to me SUCH a low return. Maybe a big part of this week was goalkicking? Off the top of my head Gunston missed 2 pretty easy ones. Hippy and Ashcroft missed sodas. Daniher a relatively easy one. Coleman had an okay chance on the run but missed by a mile. Bad goalkicking definitely spreads.

The return Adelaide got from their inside 50s was concerning. Some good goals. But also it seems when we camp the ball in our inside 50, when it does get out we are very exposed. Maybe it's as simple as an extra number staying back? It's not as if we need more players in our forward 50, it gets so crowded.

I do think part of this was effort and running hard to get to the right positions. When we're on our defensive zone is well set-up behind those repeat inside 50s and compresses the field. We saw that in the third quarter (when the coverage showed our pressure was at the level of Adelaide's) where every time Adelaide tried to rebound it just bounced straight back in. But numerous times during the match we saw Adelaide transition from D50 to F50 relatively untouched.

In the end it comes down to converted on those inside 50s. It was our second lowest goal per inside 50 of the season at 15%, the lowest being against the Bulldogs at 14.5%.

We had 10 scores from about 20 inside 50s in the third. 50% is perfectly reasonable

I think our forwards on top of goal kicking had a poor match. Not many 1 on 1 wins inside 50 last night

5 marks inside 50. Previous lowest was 6 (vs Port) and 11 vs Dogs. Average coming into the game was 15/game.

 

[twhowler]

We had 10 scores from about 20 inside 50s in the third. 50% is perfectly reasonable

I think our forwards on top of goal kicking had a poor match. Not many 1 on 1 wins inside 50 last night

But what about 25 from 66?

Or v Essendon 27 from 69?

It's something that has happened the past 3 weeks now so it should be looked at. Before then we were going along at about 50%, now it's dropping below 40%. Did Essendon implement something others are copying? Fagan said they put numbers back, we leveled them up then started kicking goals. Maybe that isn't working all the time and is over-crowding the forward line?

 

[Nathan Barley]

I do think part of this was effort and running hard to get to the right positions. When we're on our defensive zone is well set-up behind those repeat inside 50s and compresses the field. We saw that in the third quarter (when the coverage showed our pressure was at the level of Adelaide's) where every time Adelaide tried to rebound it just bounced straight back in. But numerous times during the match we saw Adelaide transition from D50 to F50 relatively untouched.

In the end it comes down to converted on those inside 50s. It was our second lowest goal per inside 50 of the season at 15%, the lowest being against the Bulldogs at 14.5%.



5 marks inside 50. Previous lowest was 6 (vs Port) and 11 vs Dogs. Average coming into the game was 15/game.

Credit to the Crows for defending well though (with help from the umps)

 

[Nathan Barley]

But what about 25 from 66?

Or v Essendon 27 from 69?

It's something that has happened the past 3 weeks now so it should be looked at. Before then we were going along at about 50%, now it's dropping below 40%. Did Essendon implement something others are copying? Fagan said they put numbers back, we leveled them up then started kicking goals. Maybe that isn't working all the time and is over-crowding the forward line?

Similar to the weekend. Essendon flooded hard which meant they defended well but couldn't get the ball forward

We weren't far off a similar outcome to the essendon game last night if we'd kicked straight and adelaide didn't get help from the umps and some flukey goals

 

[JasRulz63]

Credit to the Crows for defending well though (with help from the umps)

100% (on both counts). Not a single forward you could comfortably argue won their match up, maybe Rayner at a push, but he was essentially unsighted in the last quarter.

 

[twhowler]

Similar to the weekend. Essendon flooded hard which meant they defended well but couldn't get the ball forward

We weren't far off a similar outcome to the essendon game last night if we'd kicked straight and adelaide didn't get help from the umps and some flukey goals

So genuine question, do you think what we are doing in response to numbers pushing back is working? It seems to be it's making our forward line much less functional. The dam wall seemed to break for Essendon and GC. Adelaide are a better side so is that the worry, the better sides will be able to score enough on rebound and can stop us scoring by flooding back?

I agree if we had kicked more accurately it could have been different. But we have also dropped off in scores per inside 50.

 

[Nathan Barley]

So genuine question, do you think what we are doing in response to numbers pushing back is working? It seems to be it's making our forward line much less functional. The dam wall seemed to break for Essendon and GC. Adelaide are a better side so is that the worry, the better sides will be able to score enough on rebound and can stop us scoring by flooding back?

I agree if we had kicked more accurately it could have been different. But we have also dropped off in scores per inside 50.

We're currently the 2nd best for points scored and 6th for points conceded

I think what it does do is keep our points conceded down which is what we struggle with

Like I said elsewhere we need the skill to take advantage of inside 50s that aren't repeat inside 50s dealing with flooded forward lines

Our midfield is really poorly skilled

 

[twhowler]

We're currently the 2nd best for points scored and 6th for points conceded

I think what it does do is keep our points conceded down which is what we struggle with

Like I said elsewhere we need the skill to take advantage of inside 50s that aren't repeat inside 50s dealing with flooded forward lines

Our midfield is really poorly skilled

78 points for on the weekend. 87 at the gabba 2 weeks ago which is well below average there. So it seems to be hurting out scoring ability.

So on the scoring side I agree we need to better deal with the flooded forward line. Clugga more on the outside? Berry out for Ah Chee? Switch around more and search for more angles? New personnel in the forward line, Gunston out and a pressure player like Lohmann in?

It's only a 3 week block and we are going okay but i think we need to be proactive.

On the scoring side it does imply that speed is even more crucial when most of the opposition's chances will come from counter attack? I think it does. We need as little as possible in terms of players that can be exploited. Realistically what does that mean for Rich? Realistically would Rich for say Wilmot mean we save a goal or 2? Does Rich gives us a benefit in terms of attack? I would argue a strong NO from kick ins. He kicked a nice goal on the weekend. But the better value would be low bullet passes to a forward. He used to do it. Were there any on the weekend from his 24 possessions? I can't remember one. Happy to be corrected.

 

[Berrygood]

Just a thought regarding Berry's form of late. Is it just me, or has Berry been used less n less as an inside mid at stoppages and centre bounces. It seems to me that, Clugg, Bailey, and even Rayner are being used more there.

I don't know the stats, maybe someone with them could confirm or negate my thought. At times recently our midfield has been beaten, are we using his bigger body and tackling ability enough inside.