Changing face of the game...planning to get ahead of the pack

[Memories]

Dont bring in player density! The ball movement is far quicker and the principle is the same. A quick pass over 50m means an opposition player could make up atleast 5 meters of ground. A quick pass in bball might only allow a defender to extend an arm.

Yes but if you're kicking it 50m it usually means there isn't 36 players in a third of the field you're kicking into. The reason I said 50m kickers is because you have the current massive clusters around the ball and to the likely area of next kick. If you have a player that can run with it for 10m and kick it 50m to a player that will likely mark it even with pressure then you've just blown away any zone that can be invented. ANY ZONE.

Unlike basketball a lot of time in football is spent in the middle of the ground basically making player density in worst case about 220 square meters. No zone can properly cover that density if you have players with good quick kicks.

Zone only works in football if everyone is on same page. Like in Bball if you have 1 weak link you will get exposed.

I think you mean the zone works BETTER when you have team cohesion in regards to running it, but the same can be said with any setup.

Go over nearly any game these days and count how many goals are scored with players running in unopposed into the goal square or bouncing it through. Just by ALWAYS having one player back near goal regardless of what's going on you will save 2 or 3 goals per game that happen like that.

Like i said the whole structures thing is really in its infancy and the key over the next 10+ years will be football smarts, something i think Dockers have identified already.

The thing is, even in basketball, good man on man still defeats every zone defense. The only thing zone defense is good at doing is covering up holes of ordinary players, if you have the better players you will win with man on man. Of course you can't do man on man easily if the other team is running a zone. However if you have smart defenders and keep them in their back half and make sure they pick up appropriate players who run forward regardless if they are their "specific player" it should keep the defense strong.

 

[dockers_bengals]

I think Pies gameplan is effective due to strong bodies, skillful ball use and play as one mentality.

We have a couple of those, but are still a bit light, especially after Barlow went down.

Thomas would be their lightest guy, but is still wiry and strong...he also has 5 years in the system. Guys like Fyfe and Hill have 1 and 2...Beams and Sidebottom are stong, both in the upper body and through the hips.

We were one of the highest scoring teams this year, but IMO leaked too many goals, and our running backs, apart from Broughton when he was there, play too loose and not with the same intensity of a Maxwell, Shaw or O'Brien...and the rebound was compromised a fair bit when Roger started to do his best impersonation of a circus clown.

Ibbotson was playing a lot as our floating bac k, but you can't say he's exactly an intimidating body player or reads the ball as well as Maxwell...

I think our path is right and we'll improve as we go along

I remember MM saying angrily a few years ago that is was over the speed rubbish and that he was going back to what he knows and he changed the team to what it is now.

 

[TIME IS NOW]

Yes but if you're kicking it 50m it usually means there isn't 36 players in a third of the field you're kicking into. The reason I said 50m kickers is because you have the current massive clusters around the ball and to the likely area of next kick. If you have a player that can run with it for 10m and kick it 50m to a player that will likely mark it even with pressure then you've just blown away any zone that can be invented. ANY ZONE.

Unlike basketball a lot of time in football is spent in the middle of the ground basically making player density in worst case about 220 square meters. No zone can properly cover that density if you have players with good quick kicks.



I think you mean the zone works BETTER when you have team cohesion in regards to running it, but the same can be said with any setup.

Go over nearly any game these days and count how many goals are scored with players running in unopposed into the goal square or bouncing it through. Just by ALWAYS having one player back near goal regardless of what's going on you will save 2 or 3 goals per game that happen like that.



The thing is, even in basketball, good man on man still defeats every zone defense. The only thing zone defense is good at doing is covering up holes of ordinary players, if you have the better players you will win with man on man. Of course you can't do man on man easily if the other team is running a zone. However if you have smart defenders and keep them in their back half and make sure they pick up appropriate players who run forward regardless if they are their "specific player" it should keep the defense strong.

Will 100% disagree with that comment.

Played bball in Europe and for WA so can say first hand that zone is far more effective. Zone is good for covering ordinary players if you play D division down at your local rec center. Man on man with good players gets smashed regularly.

They dont play zone in NBA because its unattractive, not because its ineffective.

My intial post anyway was that the zone is in its infancy.

 

[Dormammu]

Given this a bit of thought (hence the late response), and imo the issue of zoning and other game day strategies and tactics do not provide a sustained edge (i.e., for all or most part of a season) for "getting ahead of the pack".

This is due to the significant resources that all clubs devote to areas such as video and tactical analysts (e.g., Lions announcing that they have added two such analysts to their coaching staff).

Don't get me wrong, it's clearly a critical aspect and requires continuous, dedicated resources, but any gains are likely to be heavily scrutinised and hence short-lived as counter-measures are quickly developed.

So where might gains exist?

Looking offshore it was recently reported in the NY Times (wish I'd kept the link) that hologram technology was being trialled by various NFL clubs (pause as images of 7 of 9 flood in). The objective is to supplement the current training philosophy of trying to replicate real time game conditions (or "games-based skills", which is at the core of most clubs' training regimes) by recreating opposition strategies using the science that underpins flight simulators.

If successful this will eventually find its way here and be utilised, first by the richer clubs and, as the technology gains wider acceptance and costs fall, by all and sundry.

So what to do in the interim?

First a quick recap on games-based skills. This link should be useful.

No surprise that it's so popular not just in AFL but with most team games. But again, everyone is doing it and over the years, as players and coaching staff migrate from one club to another, competitive advantages from this method have all but eroded.

But perhaps not. Looking back into history to the greatest soccer team in history - the Mighty Magyars - we see the origins of game-based skills. One of their key training tactics was, ahead of a major competition, to play against a lowly 3rd or 4th division team. From this they'd sort out the kinks in their game plan and also gain valuable self-confidence by kicking cricket scores.

My suggestion would be for the role of our recruiting department to identify those players in the WAFL and the WAAFL A Grade division who's style of play are similar to opposition players we are due to play in 2-3 weeks and invite them to train as proxies for the players in question.

For this modified skill-based training to be effective our players would first need to be "flattened" i.e., trained hard beforehand so their lactic acid levels were reasonably high, while the proxies are kept reasonably fresh and so make the contests more realistic. Equally, the proxies would need to properly prepped beforehand (videos etc) as to what they exactly are trying to replicate.

There are of course many logistical issues associated with implementing this plan, and the proxies, even at their best, would be pale imitations of the real things.

But as this year's first GF demonstrated, an edge, however slight, can be incredibly decisive.

 

[Selggad]

Jesus, Dorammu, I tried to read the link on the Mighty Magyars but the writing was absolutely f****** dreadful. Somebody was trying to be literally flamboyant and made an unreadable f****** mess

ps _ I realise this has nothing to do with you - I just needed to vent a bit after wading through so much hyperbole

 

[Memories]

Played bball in Europe and for WA so can say first hand that zone is far more effective.

Maybe you're an ordinary player?

I can tell you the worst I have ever performed playing BBALL is when you have a near equal talent playing on you consistently. If I got a zone it's easy, run around until you got one of the weaker players on you and shoot or drive away.

The only reason "zone" works is because you can cover weaker defensive players in your team and in bball you have tiny spaces to cover. If your team is better than the other, not on an average, but a player basis, a man vs man will destroy them. Of course in the AFL with 22 players per side, it's hard to make sure you have the balance on any one day. There are a lot more variables to consider in AFL than basketball. Some players don't like it when you put a fast guy on them, others when you put a tough guy on them. Some players don't play well with tall guys. There are so many factors that it makes playing zone more attractive simply because you have less to calculate from a coaching perspective.

 

[prattsta]

Just on the whole 'which is more effective' debate going on re: zones it's impossible to answer. It will vary from game to game and opponent to opponent. Neither is better than the other, just better suited to the circumstances.

Either way, create an open player and they will both fall apart as quickly as each other.

 

[Bigger]

In theory its quite simple: You let the shit players just rack up possession because the turnovers are more likely!

Take a look at Priddis' stats vs the Pies.

Teams have been letting trundlers and hacks get plenty of pill for years.

 

[Deep_Purple]

We need to get Scotty back to Freo - he seems to be one of main instigators in developing their back 6 and forming the best defence in the comp

 

[Deep_Purple]

My thoughts on beating the Pies

Have players that are cool under pressure. They relentlessly attack the ball carrier, trying to force a mistake, miss-pass, panic. So you need a core of good inside players all over the ground with good disposal skills, and cool quick football brains that can quickly move the ball to ball carriers.

Once in possession ball movement needs to be precise and quick - no time to establish defence, also quick change of movement to place the defence or defensive zone out of position, and making it hard to come off their player to enter the play. Particularly in the forward half of the ground.

 

[Dormammu]

Jesus, Dorammu, I tried to read the link on the Mighty Magyars** but the writing was absolutely f****** dreadful. Somebody was trying to be literally flamboyant and made an unreadable f****** mess

ps _ I realise this has nothing to do with you - I just needed to vent a bit after wading through so much hyperbole

Yeah, it gets real scary when nationalism and sport meet head-on. Particularly when watching those Balkan teams play, you get the sense that with one dodgy offside call the whole stadium could collapse into an impromptu genocide.

But back on topic.

Another concern is that Collingwood and Geelong field reserve sides in the VFL. IMO, over time this has the potential to create a clear-cut advantage, as game-plans can be consistently applied to the entire playing group. Furthermore, a reserves side can be a laboratory, allowing coaching staff to experiment with various tactics and strategies which, if successful, can be immediately be applied to the big stage.

The WAFL, in conjunction with Freo and the WCE, needs to take steps to counteract this now. The 8 traditional WAFL clubs need to be split between Freo and WCE (given Peel's ongoing woes I don't think WCE would object if we picked them up). WA draftees would remain at their "home" club only if that club was aligned to the AFL club that drafted them. E.g., if the Eagles were grouped with East Perth, West Perth, Subiaco and Claremont, then if they drafted an East Freo player then he would have to cross to one of these clubs. Any interstate draftee would of course go one of the "aligned" clubs.

This would make it easier for Freo and WCE's to co-ordinate their coaching programmes by dealing with 4 sets of coaching staff (5 in our case) instead of 9. And whilst it is by no means as effective as having a reserves team it at least mitigates the problem.

** Interesting to note that the Hungarian water polo team used a lot of their tactics and won an Olympic gold as a result

 

[willoblue]

The Desert Fox... The Ancient Roman War Machine.. Phalanx formations.. The Dalai Lama.. Environmentalism.

Must be an interesting set of books next to Micks bed.

does anybody actually believe that malthouse can actually read?
the bloke can coach, yes, but i reckon his assistant coaches read the names on the board 4 him.
you only have 2 listen 2 him speak in order to make such an assessment.
i reckon he might have colouring books & be hoping 2 progress to dot 2 dots soon.

 

[Selggad]

does anybody actually believe that malthouse can actually read?
the bloke can coach, yes, but i reckon his assistant coaches read the names on the board 4 him.
you only have 2 listen 2 him speak in order to make such an assessment.
i reckon he might have colouring books & be hoping 2 progress to dot 2 dots soon.

Much as I dislike Darth Vadar (CC's greatest contribution to the game was disclosiong Mick's real identity) I have to disagree with the above. He's a smart bloke and quite a thnker. His manipulation of the media is brilliant and he has stayed current in the game for a long time. We may rubbish him but he got two fairly ordinary Collinwood teams to the GF (maybe a bit harsh, but they weren't great teams) and has just grabbed another flag. DOn;t be fooled - he runs the show on the footy side of things at Collingwood and has achieved a lot.

 

[Boppo]

does anybody actually believe that malthouse can actually read?
the bloke can coach, yes, but i reckon his assistant coaches read the names on the board 4 him.
you only have 2 listen 2 him speak in order to make such an assessment.
i reckon he might have colouring books & be hoping 2 progress to dot 2 dots soon.

Hmmm, na rubbish post. Obviously not true literally but the implied sentiment is way off the mark? Why write this btw?

 

[willoblue]

Hmmm, na rubbish post. Obviously not true literally but the implied sentiment is way off the mark? Why write this btw?

ok so you disagree with me, but i reckon if malthouse was commentating footy 30 years ago he would have been a jakovich type.
having said that, he is a leader of men who is clever enough to have good subordinates 2 prop him up.

 

[Boppo]

ok so you disagree with me, but i reckon if malthouse was commentating footy 30 years ago he would have been a jakovich type.
having said that, he is a leader of men who is clever enough to have good subordinates 2 prop him up.

He gets tounge tied trying to adapt Sun Tzu in his press conferences but it shows he's doing some reading.

I reckon he's done exceptionally well, especially now that he has a premiership. The 2 other GF's against Brissie were reached with a really ordinary squad (Buckley the only superstar). Ditto the lost prelim against Geelong in 2007. They meant the the Pies had no top draft picks during the lasty 8 years.

 

[Selggad]

Malthouse is so much smarter than Jako it isn't worth the comparison. You can rubbish Malthouse for many, many things and be whole heartedly supported onthis board, but he is still a well read and very canny caoch.

 

[Deep_Purple]

The WAFL, in conjunction with Freo and the WCE, needs to take steps to counteract this now. The 8 traditional WAFL clubs need to be split between Freo and WCE (given Peel's ongoing woes I don't think WCE would object if we picked them up). WA draftees would remain at their "home" club only if that club was aligned to the AFL club that drafted them. E.g., if the Eagles were grouped with East Perth, West Perth, Subiaco and Claremont, then if they drafted an East Freo player then he would have to cross to one of these clubs. Any interstate draftee would of course go one of the "aligned" clubs.

This would make it easier for Freo and WCE's to co-ordinate their coaching programmes by dealing with 4 sets of coaching staff (5 in our case) instead of 9. And whilst it is by no means as effective as having a reserves team it at least mitigates the problem.

I like the idea but cant see it happening - the WAFL coaches first priority is to win - any changing of tactics to help the AFL teams out would be met with resistance, plus what happens when Perth play Swans and both their tactics are the same - that would happen half the time.

What is Peel folded and was replaced by a Fremantle reserves, introduce a WCE reserves - that makes 10 teams. Make the competition as even as you can by re-zoning. That way the AFL clubs have ultimate control of their lists and tactics

 

[Nickos66]

It's ridiculous that the WA teams don't get a reserves team. Meanwhile the rest of the country is reaping the benefits already covered in this thread.

 

[Dormammu]

What is Peel folded and was replaced by a Fremantle reserves, introduce a WCE reserves - that makes 10 teams. Make the competition as even as you can by re-zoning. That way the AFL clubs have ultimate control of their lists and tactics

Not a bad suggestion.

Perhaps another mechanism might be to expand the coaching staff so that they have dual roles - e.g., have Freo's strategy analysts also working as assistant coaches in the WAFL (remembering that all WAFL coaches are part-time anyway).

That way we get consistency in developing our game plan across the list, while the WAFL clubs get an additional resource plus access to the latest AFL tactics, coaching techniques, sports science etc etc

 

[Selggad]

I can't really see either of your idea working Dorm as they require to much coordination across disparate parts of the industry. I like the thinking but I just can;t see it being implemented. Freo and the wee-girls having their own reserves team is the simplest and most cohesive solution.

 

[chinggis77]

In an ideal world we would have a national reserves competition, sponsored by jetstar (lol), with some games shown on Channel 10's new digital channel (heck I would watch our reserves team on tv to see how the kids are going).

Games would be played prior to the main AFL game or to promote the game in regional areas (e.g. Freo reserve home games in Bunbury/Mandurah).

Would be quite feasible. Most supporters would tune in and watch a reserves game in such a comp to see how their kids are going meaning a TV network would pick it up given they are desparate for content on their new digital channels, run a few games on TV and cover the cost of a comp.

However the world is not an ideal place.

WAFL/SANFL have too many vested interests given they own the clubs so it won't ever happen lest they kill their own competitions.

 

[Deep_Purple]

If Freo had a reserve team I would go and see them quite often, in fact interest in the local comp would pick up, only down side I see is that a lot of supporters would not support their WAFL team as much. I have been a Perth supporter all my life, but if Freo reserves came in I would find it hard to pick.

 

[MadMac]

At some stages we were struggling to get 22 for the first team due to mounting injuries. What would happen to reserves team in the comp then?

 

[Deep_Purple]

Reserves would have a full list like VFL, they would have a zone like the other WAFL teams but not as strong the allow for being an AFL reserve team - not sure but I think the VFL works this way