List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion 2023

[Copeland]

Macrae for Naughton I’m convinced. One can’t get a game, one can’t kick straight. Fair straight swap in my

Not after picking up McStay.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

We already have Moore down back as an elite interceptor. (As you say) - so it’s not about not valuing the role.

I’d say Melbourne is a good example of why you try to spread your A-Graders out.

Two expensive backs, and 0 equivalent key forwards has reduced their potency IMO.

I reckon pairing one high ticket A-grader with a workhorse KPP at each end gives you a more balanced team than stacking one end or the other, and you can only fit so many high $ players in at once.

But Melbourne have got the highly paid Grundy as their forward haven't they? Lol.

And 'highly valued' according to Goodwin.

 

[DopeMaster]

But Melbourne have got the highly paid Grundy as their forward haven't they? Lol.

Another flow on effect of investing in the wrong strategic mix of players.

They're playing their best midfielder in Petracca forward, and trying to turn their redundant ruck into a forward - probably should have just got a good key forward.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Another flow on effect of investing in the wrong strategic mix of players.

They're playing their best midfielder in Petracca forward, and trying to turn their redundant ruck into a forward - probably should have just got a good key forward.

I'd happily take van Rooyen off their hands.

 

[brysie]

From games I have watched of the Dogs (a few this season and last), Naughton would make a good candidate if we're looking to fill a role similar to the one played by Jeremy Cameron

5

Jeremy Cameron

Age

31

Ht

196cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.5

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

5.4

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.6

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

7.1

3star

HB

2.9

2star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.0

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.0

5star

. Naughton's fitness doesn't appear to be an issue, as he's routinely making long, searching leads, his field kicking is better than his set shots and his courage is second to none.

The combination of him, Mihocek, McStay and Johnson forward would be slightly top heavy, however if Naughton was to play a high half forward role where he pushes up the ground before tracking back if the ball passes him is one that could really suit us. The space he leaves in behind as he's pushing up the ground can be filled by one of mids pushing forward of the ball, or a wing such as McCreery (which would allow us to accommodate McCreery, Elliott and Hill in the same side).

Alternatively, Naughton could start on the wing. This would pose a very difficult match-up for other sides' traditional wingers, a bit like when Richo transitioned to the wing for Richmond and was unlucky not to win a Brownlow.

Lastly, if all else fails, he's capable of playing next to Moore and replacing Howe in the intercepting defender slot which, in the context of our current side is an incredible strength of ours as it allows us to play corridor footy with less risk due to the opposition not being set when the ball turns over.

Of all the upcoming free agents, Naughton's flexibility and existing record at AFL level to me makes him a clear standout. Himmelberg is another, for similar reasons, particularly his ability to distribute the ball from the defensive 50 effectively.

 

[No SPIN]

Doubt we’d be looking at Naughton to be moving him back.

With both he and Moore back it would be allocating a huge chunk of our cap to the backline. You want your A-grade talent spread more evenly across the ground.

Checkers is likely in his last couple years with the wear and tear he inflicts on himself.

Naughton is the missing piece in our forward line both right now and forecasting into the future IMO.

Seriously I don’t get this “a huge chuck of cap space in our backline”.
These are arguments used by clubs that are illogical IMO.

For example any line that ND or JDG play blows the cap.
Are we seriously going to keep them pinned to a position for fear of overspending in the new line?
We have a cap to win flags, not to arbitrarily allocate resources to field positions.

 

[Scodog10]

We already have Moore down back as an elite interceptor. (As you say) - so it’s not about not valuing the role.

I’d say Melbourne is a good example of why you try to spread your A-Graders out.

Two expensive backs, and 0 equivalent key forwards has reduced their potency IMO.

I reckon pairing one high ticket A-grader with a workhorse KPP at each end gives you a more balanced team than stacking one end or the other, and you can only fit so many high $ players in at once.

I’d suggest it is about that if you believe Moore and IQ are enough because my scenario meant there was no Howe. The reason Frampton was recruited to the club was on the back of his intercept marking. Ditto Dean. The 1st Rd KPD’s of the past few drafts Busslinger, DGB and Gibcus are all intercept tall defenders.

Melbourne’s issues until the past fortnight have been their inability to move the ball or as I like to call it the Buckley’s. You get so hyper focused on defence and contest that you can’t move the ball quick enough to score. In terms of their list structure my take is their error was in bringing in Grundy not what they’re doing down back.

I’d argue the way we play two high end KPD’s is much more valuable than one at either end. When we win contest we overwhelm with speed at ground level and set the field up to not allow easy exits. A high end KPF doesn’t help there. The flip side is that when we lose the contest and territory battle we rely on our intercept game to win it back. A high end KPF might help there, but only in transition and I don’t think we’re improving on the back of a better transition game?

Another way to put it is if we had King or Naughton over McStay would there have been a material impact on the result v Port? IMO, if you’ve got Naughton down there to chop out Moore there would have been.

 

[Apex36]

Not after picking up McStay.

The idea that we couldn’t pick up an elite 24 year old key forward, just because we picked up a middle of the road role playing key forward, is completely baffling to me. Especially given that Mihocek and Cox are both over 30 now.

 

[stormskye]

But Melbourne have got the highly paid Grundy as their forward haven't they? Lol.

And 'highly valued' according to Goodwin.

After 2 VFL games he’s become am elite marking KPF according to goody and is pressing for selection

 

[KinderSmock]

I highly doubt it mate. Around $800k

And here’s me convinced he was …

 

[MooreDaicos]

One of my favorite songs to dance to. Naughton could probably pull that off, his body is the right shape.
I bet he can dance too...

 

[DopeMaster]

Seriously I don’t get this “a huge chuck of cap space in our backline”.
These are arguments used by clubs that are illogical IMO.

For example any line that ND or JDG play blows the cap.
Are we seriously going to keep them pinned to a position for fear of overspending in the new line?
We have a cap to win flags, not to arbitrarily allocate resources to field positions.

Nothing arbitrary about spreading your finite resources / A-Graders across the lines. I'd say the clubs argue this precisely because it is logical and is geared to win flags.

Thought experiment: if your cap can fit five absolute match-winners and you're building a team from scratch, do you put any thought into which positions you pick them in?

For me, I'm picking 3 elite midfielders, an elite key forward and elite key back. I can almost guarantee you that team will be more balanced, and overall far better than a team where all your A-grade talent is stacked in the forward line for example.

It means that no matter where the ball is in play, you have a match-winner lurking with intent

 

[No SPIN]

Nothing arbitrary about spreading your finite resources / A-Graders across the lines. I'd say the clubs argue this precisely because it is logical and is geared to win flags.

Thought experiment: if your cap can fit five absolute match-winners and you're building a team from scratch, do you put any thought into which positions you pick them in?

For me, I'm picking 3 elite midfielders, an elite key forward and elite key back. I can almost guarantee you that team will be more balanced, and overall far better than a team where all your A-grade talent is stacked in the forward line for example.

It means that no matter where the ball is in play, you have a match-winner lurking with intent

Not sure about your post - on the one hand, my point about arbitrary allocation of cap share across lines, you say is NOT arbitrary.

Then you go ahead and make my point ( we need to win flags not focus on cap spent per line) suggesting you’d pick 3 mids etc.
I think you’re agreeing with but l’m not sure.

 

[soreplums]

McStay got drafted as a defender with good foot skills.

do we look better with McStay back and Naughton forward
or
Murphy back and McStay forward?

if the answer is McStay back, do we put Murph on the table for Naughton?

 

[Scodog10]

Nothing arbitrary about spreading your finite resources / A-Graders across the lines. I'd say the clubs argue this precisely because it is logical and is geared to win flags.

Thought experiment: if your cap can fit five absolute match-winners and you're building a team from scratch, do you put any thought into which positions you pick them in?

For me, I'm picking 3 elite midfielders, an elite key forward and elite key back. I can almost guarantee you that team will be more balanced, and overall far better than a team where all your A-grade talent is stacked in the forward line for example.

It means that no matter where the ball is in play, you have a match-winner lurking with intent

Good thought experiment!

I’ll take it a step further and name my five. Naicos, Moore, Taylor, Rozee and Petracca. That blend of stoppage impact, intercept marking and damage forward of centre would be tantalising.

 

[DopeMaster]

I’d suggest it is about that if you believe Moore and IQ are enough because my scenario meant there was no Howe. The reason Frampton was recruited to the club was on the back of his intercept marking. Ditto Dean. The 1st Rd KPD’s of the past few drafts Busslinger, DGB and Gibcus are all intercept tall defenders.

Melbourne’s issues until the past fortnight have been their inability to move the ball or as I like to call it the Buckley’s. You get so hyper focused on defence and contest that you can’t move the ball quick enough to score. In terms of their list structure my take is their error was in bringing in Grundy not what they’re doing down back.

I’d argue the way we play two high end KPD’s is much more valuable than one at either end. When we win contest we overwhelm with speed at ground level and set the field up to not allow easy exits. A high end KPF doesn’t help there. The flip side is that when we lose the contest and territory battle we rely on our intercept game to win it back. A high end KPF might help there, but only in transition and I don’t think we’re improving on the back of a better transition game?

Another way to put it is if we had King or Naughton over McStay would there have been a material impact on the result v Port? IMO, if you’ve got Naughton down there to chop out Moore there would have been.

This is a solid argument that takes into account our style of play. V well thought through.

Though I wouldn't suggest we don't seek to replace Howe, moreso we don't recruit Naughton to pair him with Moore down back. We'd still eventually require a Howe replacement. I'd like to see Frampton given a better run a FB as the wraps were big on his intercept game in SA, but so far hasn't translated. If he's not up to it we look elsewhere. Though Murphy is improving this side of his game to be able to assist.

Agree picking up Grundy was a bad move. I'd say though a dysfunctional/ill-equipped forward line can give any team a case of the Buckleys, ball movement grinds to a halt as options/structures ahead are often poor.

Agree interceptors are important to our specific game style. Though IMO a good KPF wouldn't be about improving our transition game, but rather our forward half game. As we've seen, when the corridor is choked and transition scoring dries up, we are very gettable. A top-notch KPF would help with repeat entries / finding other avenues to goal if our transition game is suppressed.

Final para: In this hypothetical you're replacing McStay with Naughton, but adding Naughton to Moore, so not a like for like comparison, unless I've misunderstood... Though if using the Port game as an example, for mine it would be Naughton instead of Cox (McStay chops out ruck), vs Naughton instead of Howe/Murphy. I'm personally taking option 1.

Good points on game style / interceptors

 

[DopeMaster]

Good thought experiment!

I’ll take it a step further and name my five. Naicos, Moore, Taylor, Rozee and Petracca. That blend of stoppage impact, intercept marking and damage forward of centre would be tantalising.

Good 5! Definitely in line with your take above.

I'd opt for Daics, Petracca, Bont, Moore and an early season Jezza Cameron.

 

[Scodog10]

This is a solid argument that takes into account our style of play. V well thought through.

Though I wouldn't suggest we don't seek to replace Howe, moreso we don't recruit Naughton to pair him with Moore down back. We'd still eventually require a Howe replacement. I'd like to see Frampton given a better run a FB as the wraps were big on his intercept game in SA, but so far hasn't translated. If he's not up to it we look elsewhere. Though Murphy is improving this side of his game to be able to assist.

Agree picking up Grundy was a bad move. I'd say though a dysfunctional/ill-equipped forward line can give any team a case of the Buckleys, ball movement grinds to a halt as options/structures ahead are often poor.

Agree interceptors are important to our specific game style. Though IMO a good KPF wouldn't be about improving our transition game, but rather our forward half game. As we've seen, when the corridor is choked and transition scoring dries up, we are very gettable. A top-notch KPF would help with repeat entries / finding other avenues to goal if our transition game is suppressed.

Final para: In this hypothetical you're replacing McStay with Naughton, but adding Naughton to Moore, so not a like for like comparison, unless I've misunderstood... Though if using the Port game as an example, for mine it would be Naughton instead of Cox (McStay chops out ruck), vs Naughton instead of Howe/Murphy. I'm personally taking option 1.

Good points on game style / interceptors

I can see how that could have got twisted with me jumping through timelines.

Naughton for Cox would be my preference, but I don’t see the club sacrificing Cox in that ruck/ fwd role unless it’s for Kreuger hence why I went with Naughton in place of McStay. Naughton would be in conjunction with Howe and Murphy at the expense of the extra mid we’re currently carrying.

 

[DopeMaster]

Not sure about your post - on the one hand, my point about arbitrary allocation of cap share across lines, you say is NOT arbitrary.

Then you go ahead and make my point ( we need to win flags not focus on cap spent per line) suggesting you’d pick 3 mids etc.
I think you’re agreeing with but l’m not sure.

My point was it's not arbitrary but well planned/considered resource allocation, so you don't end up with your entire cap/cohort of A-graders in the forward line for instance.

Your view (if I understood it correctly) was it doesn't matter where on the field you invest your cap towards high $ match-winners, or that it's an illogical consideration.

 

[DopeMaster]

I can see how that could have got twisted with me jumping through timelines.

Naughton for Cox would be my preference, but I don’t see the club sacrificing Cox in that ruck/ fwd role unless it’s for Kreuger hence why I went with Naughton in place of McStay. Naughton would be in conjunction with Howe and Murphy at the expense of the extra mid we’re currently carrying.

Both good options and both would improve us IMO - let's go out and get Naughton so we can continue the debate on where he best serves us.

 

[Kappa]

We have no players over $800k. If Carlton can afford to keep Curnow and McKay with all their inflated contracts I’m sure we can make room for Naughton.

Moore is on 800k or less? The article said he signed a 6 year deal worth over 5 million.

If we can sign Naughton without losing anyone, and still have to contribute to Grundy/Stephenson's wages, that'd be one of the biggest coups in AFL history, along with Geelong getting Cameron.

 

[DopeMaster]

Moore is on 800k or less? The article said he signed a 6 year deal worth over 5 million.

So 830K-ish for Moore - good value IMO

Especially when you consider McGovern was reportedly on over a mil PA

 

[No SPIN]

My point was it's not arbitrary but well planned/considered resource allocation, so you don't end up with your entire cap/cohort of A-graders in the forward line for instance.

Your view (if I understood it correctly) was it doesn't matter where on the field you invest your cap towards high $ match-winners, or that it's an illogical consideration.

Correct that’s my view.
It’s illogical to allocate money based on each line.
Are we really walking away from a gun mid, because JDG and ND have filled the cap allowance for the midfield?

That is just plane madness if that gun mid would take us closer to a flag.

And let’s say we wish to play JDG fwd.
Suddenly we’ve over spent the fwd line cap, and it can’t be done?

These are just absurdly arbitrary allocations that make no strategic sense IMO.

 

[DopeMaster]

Correct - it’s illogical to allocate money based on each line.
Are we really walking away from a gun mid because JDG and ND have filled the cap allowance for the midfield?

That is just plane madness if that gun mid takes closer to a flag.

So in the above hypothetical you don’t put any thought into where on the field you’re investing your big money?

Content to agree to disagree if so.

 

[Go Woods]

The Bulldogs have to clear out a tall and Naughton is the most likely to leave. Naughton's dad would sign the contract for him at the Pies if it was offered - he hasn't stopped supporting the Pies.

Could be the bombshell come trade week.