List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion 2023

[Couch Coach]

Hmmm bit of a flimsy argument. If you’re an AFL quality mid long term you put up AFL quality numbers. Only one of the three was putting up AFL numbers and coincidentally has been the one to play senior footy this year. On the balance of things none of the three are improving us in 2024.

None are putting up AFL numbers.

Dow is below avage in everything exept clearances which he is average in.

My arguement is we should't be trading for below average players. I would rather use what we have as a short term solution until we get something better.

If Dow wasn't a high draft pick no one would even mention him.

 

[Oddzonfavourite]

Hmmm bit of a flimsy argument. If you’re an AFL quality mid long term you put up AFL quality numbers. Only one of the three was putting up AFL numbers and coincidentally has been the one to play senior footy this year. On the balance of things none of the three are improving us in 2024.

Go Fiorini then, got 3000 disposals in the magoos recently.

 

[Gaben]

Is there actually any talk about James Worpel leaving? He'd be absolutely perfect for us.

Edit: Literally signed an extension yesterday, lol.

 

[sr36]

Hmmm bit of a flimsy argument. If you’re an AFL quality mid long term you put up AFL quality numbers. Only one of the three was putting up AFL numbers and coincidentally has been the one to play senior footy this year. On the balance of things none of the three are improving us in 2024.

As much as centre square is our main weakness, I don't think anyone is improving us in 2024, except continued development of Nick and Jordy - without spending a bomb or suffering in other areas.

Under 22 is the way to go. Cross our fingers with Allan and target a kid or two for post Pendles/Mitchell/Adams. I wouldn't keep Carmichael or fight to retain Macrae if he wants out.

 

[Scodog10]

As much as centre square is our main weakness, I don't think anyone is improving us in 2024, except continued development of Nick and Jordy - without spending a bomb or suffering in other areas.

Under 22 is the way to go. Cross our fingers with Allan and target a kid or two for post Pendles/Mitchell/Adams. I wouldn't keep Carmichael or fight to retain Macrae if he wants out.

Parish would, but he won’t leave. Allan is the smoky and as much as it pains me to go there Pendles chewing up considerable midfield minutes is not an option for 2024 if we’re going to improve. Like you I wouldn’t fight to retain Macrae, but I feel like no decision on him this year was a decision…

None are putting up AFL numbers.

Dow is below avage in everything exept clearances which he is average in.

My arguement is we should't be trading for below average players. I would rather use what we have as a short term solution until we get something better.

If Dow wasn't a high draft pick no one would even mention him.

I didn’t suggest his AFL numbers were up to it. I was suggesting that he’s the only one of the three putting up the performances you would expect of an AFL quality footballer at VFL level.

My argument is that comparing a below average footballer to two lesser footballers as justification for not recruiting someone is a poor argument. I’ve got no idea why anyone would be interested in Dow myself, but I’m certain it has nothing to do with where the draft rated him 6 years ago.

In relative terms that’s halfway through a very strong AFL career no one with half a brain cares about draft number beyond the teenage years and it should be thrown out the window the minute they walk through the doors of the club, IMO.

 

[KinderSmock]

I'd rather play Finlay Macrae or Josh Carmichael or bring Brayden Sier out of retirement than bring in Dow.

Dow was drafted in 2017 and played 71 games for:
View attachment 1774819
Pretty much below average in every stat

He's only one month younger than Carmichael. Macrae is three years younger.

View attachment 1774828
Stats from: - 2023

Yes Dow has better 2023 VFL stats than Macrae and Carmichael but:

• Average 5.1 more disposals than Macrae but Macrae is 3 years younger.
• Average 8.6 more disposals than Carmichael but Carmichael is playing as a wing at times.
• Carmichael kicks more goals.

The biggest issue is his disposals
View attachment 1774836

64% dispoal efficiency.
52.8% kicking efficiency.

Worth noting is that Dow has been the medi-sub, hence those averages are slightly out. Wouldn't read too much into it given he hasn't really been given a fair crack.

 

[Mick F]

Do contracts really mean much these days?
Reports that Grundy will want a move from Melbourne at season’s end, after just one year of a 5 year deal, shows that despite a contract and at the players request, they can move.

You think it is likely that GWS will clear Callaghan at year’s end??

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

You think it is likely that GWS will clear Callaghan at year’s end??

Well hopefully he will ask for a trade at seasons end, if one can be agreed upon, and GWS believe he will leave after 2024.

 

[Oddzonfavourite]

Well hopefully he will ask for a trade at seasons end, if one can be agreed upon, and GWS believe he will leave after 2024.

They've entered the window, I wouldn't let him go.

 

[Everybody Panic]

We would have no chance of trading for Callaghan this year. Just don't have the picks. He's a gun though. Happy for him to stay a few years and move to us later.

 

[SchuPie]

trade / draft young gun mids
trade / draft young gun mids
trade / draft young gun mids
trade / draft young gun mids

 

[stormskye]

trade / draft young gun mids
trade / draft young gun mids
trade / draft young gun mids
trade / draft young gun mids

Need high picks. We haven’t had any for some time, bar Nick for varying reasons we all know of. Will be tough to get access to any. Hoping allan for one comes on.

 

[SchuPie]

Need high picks. We haven’t had any for some time, bar Nick for varying reasons we all know of. Will be tough to get access to any. Hoping allan for one comes on.

Yeah it’s gonna be tough
Player/s forcing a trade to us might be our best option

Never know when a player have wants out (to return to SA etc) which could facilitate high picks — or somehow getting involved when teams need points

Edit - IMO we really do need to go hard to bring in young talent in next 2-3 years

 

[Bramax]

But he has a contract which means Geelong can just be like, "wait a year, mate".

I think the poster that commented on this said that he told the Cats he won’t be signing “another” contract. He didn’t say anything about leaving before the end of his 2 yr contract.

 

[Bramax]

You mean planning for end of season trip in September, while Jordy has a massive finals series?

I would’ve thought Jordy does plenty of things that Newcombe doesn’t ….. or can’t.

 

[Oddzonfavourite]

I would’ve thought Jordy does plenty of things that Newcombe doesn’t ….. or can’t.

Yeah unless we are talking about John Newcombe they're not in the same class.

 

[partypie]

Most teams set their defence with two talls playing deep who play pretty much the whole game and another tall playing a bit higher, who covers more ground and thus needs to rotate. Calamity doesn't befall when he rotates or when a tall defender is subbed out.

And if most teams are rotating a third tall through forward and ruck, why not match it with a third defender through defence and ruck. It can work.

I think there are heaps of different possibilities than just first ruck playing 85% in the traditional role and a forward chopping him out for 15% game time. I think Cats won a flag from getting creative and turning what looked like a weakness into a massive strength.

That third tall though is usually a shorter more mobile intercept defender, not someone taller who would be able to chop out in the ruck.

Assuming we do find that unicorn third defender who can chop out in the ruck for 10-20% of the game and be an effective third intercept defender the other 60-70% of the game week after week, where do you propose the payer who will have to go back to plug that third defender hole will come from?

It's pretty obvious that apart from perhaps Gawn no ruck in the competition is legitimately able to play that roaming third tall intercept defender role, so we'd have to plug in another player from somewhere while the first ruck is on the bench or hidden up forward. As I mentioned previously there hasn't ever really been a player who has handled being switched between forward and back lines even from game to game on a regular basis, never mind several times within the one game week after week.

The other problem that comes to mind is that you'd be asking the one player to take on two of the most taxing roles on the ground (roaming ruck and roaming third tall intercept defender), so you'd also have to have a special physical / athletic specimen like Blicavs to make it work. You mentioned Geelong above and it's no coincidence that Blicavs was a big part of how they structured up.

I'm not necessarily saying it can't work to some degree if all the boxes are ticked and but that's where the problem lies, ticking those boxes and I don't think we have anyone that can (nor do most of the other teams).

 

[BLS World Wide]

Problem with trying for a defender-ruck is the good defenders tend to play 90%+ game time (elite defenders tend to go at closer to 100%), so fatigue is one factor to account for. It is also much easier to hide a resting ruck up forward than it is down back, where you really want your defensive group to function as a settled and cohesive group.

The option you'd have to reach for is pushing a forward back to fill the gap the backup ruck is leaving behind, but then the question is how many players in recent memory (or ever) have handled being shuffled back and forward multiple times in a game on a regular basis and have actually been effective at both ends? The answer to that would be zero I suspect, as it's a bloody hard thing to do even once mid-match on a consistent basis from game to game, never mind every time you want to give the starting ruck a chop-out either up forward or on the bench.

I remember one beautiful day back 2013 but it might’ve been 12
A game against Micks miserable blues one of their defenders went down and we moved reid forward and he dominated

 

[TakingThePies]

Has Paddy Dow’s last few weeks changed anyone’s mind on him?

He’s doing much better than Holmes, who I had huge wraps on.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Holmes has the break away pace. Dow is a type we already have

 

[sr36]

That third tall though is usually a shorter more mobile intercept defender, not someone taller who would be able to chop out in the ruck.

Assuming we do find that unicorn third defender who can chop out in the ruck for 10-20% of the game and be an effective third intercept defender the other 60-70% of the game week after week, where do you propose the payer who will have to go back to plug that third defender hole will come from?

It's pretty obvious that apart from perhaps Gawn no ruck in the competition is legitimately able to play that roaming third tall intercept defender role, so we'd have to plug in another player from somewhere while the first ruck is on the bench or hidden up forward. As I mentioned previously there hasn't ever really been a player who has handled being switched between forward and back lines even from game to game on a regular basis, never mind several times within the one game week after week.

The other problem that comes to mind is that you'd be asking the one player to take on two of the most taxing roles on the ground (roaming ruck and roaming third tall intercept defender), so you'd also have to have a special physical / athletic specimen like Blicavs to make it work. You mentioned Geelong above and it's no coincidence that Blicavs was a big part of how they structured up.

I'm not necessarily saying it can't work to some degree if all the boxes are ticked and but that's where the problem lies, ticking those boxes and I don't think we have anyone that can (nor do most of the other teams).

It doesn't have to be a straight swap of 3rd defender into the ruck. I don't think we'll do it this year, but there's multiple ways you could do it. Most on this board want Frampton to play full back to "free up" Darcy Moore (I don't) We could have Frampton playing full back and "free up" Darcy for 70% of the game and cover for Frampton when he's rucking and resting. Howe or Murphy could do the same. You really just need a bit of flexibility in your defenders, which I think we've got.

 

[Gone Critical]

Going forward Fin has to become Adams/Mitchell, be interesting to see if the club is confident of that or lets him go and trades for a diesel.

Going forward I think that is too much expectation. Of course it would be great if he became as good as those two but with his career start he isn't tracking that way.

 

[magpies42]

He hasn't been a clearance machine since 2018/19.

I was also under the impression that nothing could have motivated him more than being tossed aside by Collingwood and going and playing with Gawn.

This is true, probably mentally fried. Struggled in the bubble…

 

[SwanBet]

The bulldogs are an interesting one. A host of big names out of contract next season: Jamarra, Naughton, Libba, English, Smith

You would have to imagine that they will face a bit of a squeeze with all of those players commanding big money. We could really make a compelling bid for Naughton/Jamarra.

 

[SwanBet]

Finn Callaghan. But every side in Vic would be hoping to have a crack when he's OOC next year.

Contracted until 2025 unfortunately.

 

[Couch Coach]

Need high picks. We haven’t had any for some time, bar Nick for varying reasons we all know of. Will be tough to get access to any. Hoping allan for one comes on.

This ^.

Cal Twomey's Phantom Form Guide: Top draft prospects' August ranking

AFL.com.au's draft guru Cal Twomey delivers his second Phantom Form Guide ahead of the 2023 National Draft

www.afl.com.au

1. H Reid 1
2. J Walter (GCSA) 2
3. Z Duursma (Say North compo)
4. C McKercher 3
5. N Watson 4
6. D Curtin 5
7. R Sanders (North trying to get as free NGA)
8. N Caddy 6
9. E Reid (GCSA)
10. C O'Sullivan 7
11. J Croft (WBD F&S)
12. J Rogers (GCSA)
13. O Murphy 8
14. D Wilson 9
15. W McCabe (Haw F&S)
16. A Roberts 10
17. J Leake 11
18. R Hardeman 12
19. C Windsor 13
20. M Edwards (Fre NGA) 14
21. A Reid 15
22. H DeMattia 16
23. K Tholstrup 17
24. W Green 18
25. A Moir 19

When we win the flag this year we will have pick 18 but taking out the F&S, academy and North compo (assumed Pick 3 and Sanders) we would only have access to the 24th best player.

Hard to get a gun mid that far back.