Traded Confirmed trade - Karnezis (Brisbane) / Paine (Collingwood)

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A lose/lose trade imo.

Brisbane get Jackson Paine an undersized key position who is poor athletically and doesn't have the size/strength to be a good AFL full forward or the mobility and ground skills to be a good third tall. He will help the reserves team win more though.

Collingwood get Karnezis, a player whose attack on the footy makes Jack Watts look hard, an decent athlete who can find the ball ok but uses it averagely and will make clangers. He has no defensive game and is a soft outside runner who can play as a decent third tall. He is probably more talented though than Paine.
 

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Heaps of fun said:
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Correct. Something that needs to be corrected going forward. Darcy Moore will help when he goes F/S but you would think that next year the pies will load up on talls again like they did in 2006 (Reid, Brown, Dawes, Goldsack).

Fortunately we have a few years to find something. As the current forwards are not exactly old.
 
Heaps of fun said:
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Why do we need a KPF prospect on our list right now?

It's clear that Paine won't make it at Collingwood.
With White, Lynch, Reid, and to a lesser extent Witts, all supporting Cloke it is no surprise that Paine was traded. At a stretch we have Goldsack as well.

Just because you are a KPF, doesn't mean you will make it in the AFL.

Having said that, he is a good bloke so I hope he can turn it around at the Lions.
 
Raveneyes said:
Why do we need a KPF prospect on our list right now?

It's clear that Paine won't make it at Collingwood.
With White, Lynch, Reid, and to a lesser extent Witts, all supporting Cloke it is no surprise that Paine was traded. At a stretch we have Goldsack as well.

Just because you are a KPF, doesn't mean you will make it in the AFL.

Having said that, he is a good bloke so I hope he can turn it around at the Lions.
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I'm not criticising the trading of Paine (who I know nothing about) but I just find it an interesting contrast to North who have at least four genuine KPFs developing (Black, Tarrant, Daw and Curran). I don't know much about list management but I think a team should if possible always have good tall forwards in development because you generally have to pay a premium amount at the trade table to get them in. I don't see the above supporting Cloke that adequately, assuming Reid goes back into defence.
 

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Paine's that 3rd tall prospect that Brisbane seem to value for some crazy reason but I still like him and this trade.

Paine is a competitor and a hard worker. Along with a second ruckman working out (West/Martin whoever that may be) Paine could be that guy who does all the work so that whoever they get in post Jono Brown can develop.

Being a developing key forward is pretty hard when you are on your own - see Liam Jones at the dogs. But with a decent ruck/forward in the goal square and Paine working hard as a 3rd tall whoever they get for the post Jono Brown shadow might actually get a chance to succeed.
 
Heaps of fun said:
I'm not criticising the trading of Paine (who I know nothing about) but I just find it an interesting contrast to North who have at least four genuine KPFs developing (Black, Tarrant, Daw and Curran). I don't know much about list management but I think a team should if possible always have good tall forwards in development because you generally have to pay a premium amount at the trade table to get them in. I don't see the above supporting Cloke that adequately, assuming Reid goes back into defence.
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Each club has their own philosophy I guess but having too many at around the same age causes problems because they can't all get a game and other clubs will certainly try to poach some of them. Will be interesting to see if you still have all four on your list in say 2 years time.

From the pies point of view we have a power forward in Cloke who should be good for a few more years yet. Ideally we'd have a developing gun forward as yet but its not like we've had the high picks to land one. As we move forward it will start to become more of a priority and I'm sure the pies will do something about it.
 
Offsider said:
A lose/lose trade imo.

Brisbane get Jackson Paine an undersized key position who is poor athletically and doesn't have the size/strength to be a good AFL full forward or the mobility and ground skills to be a good third tall. He will help the reserves team win more though.

Collingwood get Karnezis, a player whose attack on the footy makes Jack Watts look hard, an decent athlete who can find the ball ok but uses it averagely and will make clangers. He has no defensive game and is a soft outside runner who can play as a decent third tall. He is probably more talented though than Paine.
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Good summary - for both our clubs' sakes I hope you are wrong but the evidence points to the scenario you've painted.
I see this as a case of the clubs picking up inferior players who might fill differing needs. Lions need another marking forward, while Karnezis provides a bit more versatility.
Last-chance saloon for these 2
 
Offsider said:
A lose/lose trade imo.

Brisbane get Jackson Paine an undersized key position who is poor athletically and doesn't have the size/strength to be a good AFL full forward or the mobility and ground skills to be a good third tall. He will help the reserves team win more though.

Collingwood get Karnezis, a player whose attack on the footy makes Jack Watts look hard, an decent athlete who can find the ball ok but uses it averagely and will make clangers. He has no defensive game and is a soft outside runner who can play as a decent third tall. He is probably more talented though than Paine.
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This is my take on it.

From Paine's perspective I was buoyant mid year, but he never really capitalized and that big game that would put his name up in lights at VFL level it had a lot to do with his inability to capitalise in front of the big sticks. Like Cloke he's a rather hit and miss shot on goal.

I really can't get too enthusiastic about Karnezis either. I don't like soft and lazy/ laconic footballers there not really attributes that can be coached out of a players game.

It's a bit like shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. It ain't really going to effect either team too much moving forward. Happy to be proven wrong with Karnezis, but I'm comfortable with my opinion of him.
 
Two Eyes said:
Each club has their own philosophy I guess but having too many at around the same age causes problems because they can't all get a game and other clubs will certainly try to poach some of them. Will be interesting to see if you still have all four on your list in say 2 years time.

From the pies point of view we have a power forward in Cloke who should be good for a few more years yet. Ideally we'd have a developing gun forward as yet but its not like we've had the high picks to land one. As we move forward it will start to become more of a priority and I'm sure the pies will do something about it.
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Gumbleton and Crameri are examples of this.
And Hampson, Mumford are other examples from a ruck perspective.

Of course there is serious issues if Cloke goes down but he's a once-in-a-generation player anyway so any absence leaves a huge hole. The challenge for Bucks is to develop a game plan that isn't so Cloke-centric, just like Clarko weaned the Hawks off Buddy to the point where he was almost a tall midfielder/decoy forward
 
Heaps of fun said:
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It's an issue that, IMO, we'll solve with the addition of McCarthy at 10.

We do also have Corey Gault as well as the potential to FS Moore in 2014. I wouldn't say that we're barren in terms of KPF talent, but it could certainly be improved.
 
i'm happy with our key forwards situation. Reid, Witts, White and Cloke will be around for at least the next five years. We are also recruiting Darcy Moore under f/s in 2014. whats the point in keeping paine when he's only ever going to play in the VFL?
 
Scodog10 said:
It's an issue that, IMO, we'll solve with the addition of McCarthy at 10.

We do also have Corey Gault as well as the potential to FS Moore in 2014. I wouldn't say that we're barren in terms of KPF talent, but it could certainly be improved.
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I don't see the point of taking a key forward at 10 in a draft heavy with quality tall utilities/mids. As far as I'm concerned our lack of height through the midfield, and overall skill coming out of defense is a more pressing issue. Next year is supposed to be filled with quality talls.

As far as I'm concerned free agency has reduced the importance of having great depth in key position players. All you have to do is look at this trade period to see the ease of movement of a number of key position players. Lynch didn't work for us, but we've been able to pick up White easily enough. I'm sure we could do the same next year if absolutely necessary.

Also Frost looks a fair bit more promising than Gault I would have thought.
 
I rate Frost. Looked good before he went down. Could allow to keep, what's his name, number 20? forward. (Mind went blank)
 

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Traded Confirmed trade - Karnezis (Brisbane) / Paine (Collingwood)

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