List Mgmt. Contract, Trade & Draftee Discussion, 2023: Picks 1,20,34,39,53 ,58

[Keys]

Link to contract status of all players

The Contracts Thread

2024 List Changes : Out: Retired- Gaff Delisted - Jones, Trew(R), Baker(R), Witherden, Burgiel, Culley(R) Traded - Darling (NM) Barrass (Hawthorn) In: Trade/FA acquisitions - Graham (Richmond) Baker (Richmond) Owies (Carlton) Current contract status (Updated 18/10/24) : Total 39 Players -...

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Link to Lore ’s excellent draft order thread that is updated to reflect current ladder positions

Resource - 2023 AFL Draft Order

Every trade as it happens!

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[ThePuma #9]

But I'm not talking about when you're serious contenders again. I'm talking about next season. My point was (replying to ziad post as the OP) not even Harley Reid will help your midfield improve next year.

Yes you need mids for your next contending team. I was just saying in my opinion KPP's should be a priority as well.

It's a fait accompli that Robertson will join you at the end of the season. That's one inside mid you add to the weekends team that will help immediately. Add Hewett, and that's another. You've got a decent midfield there, that can win the ball and get it forward.

You've got another 2 or 3 drafts in the bottom 6 after this season, to add more mids.


I'm not arguing against drafting Harley reid either, just thinking if splitting pick 1 was a likelihood due to the Reid rumours, then I might look at a different strategy this year.

I also have it in the back of my mind that other players that will help with being more competitive will become available (and for cheap) over the next couple of seasons.

Here’s the problem for me.

We trade out pick 2 last year because Sheezel and Wardlaw don’t want to leave Victoria.

We hypothetically trade out Reid this year for the same reason.

Now we’ve set a precedent that could severely hinder our rebuild for the next few years.

What are we supposed to do if we have a bottom 4 pick the following year and the top prospects are Victorian again and publicly announce they don’t want to come west?

We can’t keep trading top 4 picks away for more bites at the cherry further down the draft order.

If we allow the club to be dictated to in such a fashion then it’s quite likely every high pick that would prefer to stay in Melbourne is going to play that trump card because we’ve shown if they have a sook we’ll just trade away the pick to keep them happy.

The Victorian media are banging the war drums about how we must trade away pick 1 and what it will take for clubs to satisfy us. Forget the fact that a club hasn’t traded away pick 1 in a very long time. Yes I’m ignoring last year because North were never taking Cadman so they didn’t care less.

It better be a mammoth offer to even consider trading Pick 1.

You don’t just trade away pick 1 and you sure as shit don’t do it when it’s potentially a generational talent such as Reid.

 

[Monocle]

Here’s the problem for me.

We trade out pick 2 last year because Sheezel and Wardlaw don’t want to leave Victoria.

We hypothetically trade out Reid this year for the same reason.

Now we’ve set a precedent that could severely hinder our rebuild for the next few years.

What are we supposed to do if we have a bottom 4 pick the following year and the top prospects are Victorian again and publicly announce they don’t want to come west?

We can’t keep trading top 4 picks away for more bites at the cherry further down the draft order.

If we allow the club to be dictated to in such a fashion then it’s quite likely every high pick that would prefer to stay in Melbourne is going to play that trump card because we’ve shown if they have a sook we’ll just trade away the pick to keep them happy.

The Victorian media are banging the war drums about how we must trade away pick 1 and what it will take for clubs to satisfy us. Forget the fact that a club hasn’t traded away pick 1 in a very long time. Yes I’m ignoring last year because North were never taking Cadman so they didn’t care less.

It better be a mammoth offer to even consider trading Pick 1.

You don’t just trade away pick 1 and you sure as s**t don’t do it when it’s potentially a generational talent such as Reid.

Paper talk and media speculation is just dribble, until we see all the cohort at the Combine and Championships and the final draft order is set after the season is concluded.

North may well have the first pick so all the wanky speculation and posturing about us and Reid, counts for naught.
Reid could be overtaken in the pecking order.

Too many what ifs and wherefores at this point in time.

Flashback: This time last year Harry Lemmey was the anointed one to Wear The Crown a Pick # 1.

We all know how that worked out...... so nothing is certain in the AFL draft crap shoot.

 

[Keys]

Here’s the problem for me.

We trade out pick 2 last year because Sheezel and Wardlaw don’t want to leave Victoria.

We hypothetically trade out Reid this year for the same reason.

Now we’ve set a precedent that could severely hinder any such rebuild for the next few years.

What are we supposed to do if we have a bottom 4 pick the following year and the top prospects are Victorian again and publicly announce they don’t want to come west?

We can’t keep trading top 4 picks away for more bites at the cherry further down the draft order.

If we allow the club to be dictated to in such a fashion then it’s quite likely every high pick that would prefer to stay in Melbourne is going to play that trump card because we’ve shown if they have a sook we’ll just trade away the pick to keep them happy.

The Victorian media are banging the war drums about how we must trade away pick 1 and what it will take for clubs to satisfy us. Forget the fact that a club hasn’t traded away pick 1 in a very long time. Yes I’m ignoring last year because North were never taking Cadman so they didn’t care less.

They

You very rarely, if ever, hear West Coast say the go home factor is an issue when selecting draftees. Even last year when GWS publicly stated they ignored certain players and it was widely believed West Coast were targeting local draftees they maintained there was no issue drafting players outside WA

The reason for that imo is to avoid precisely what you’re alluding to. They don’t want it to become standard practice for Victorian draftees to behave in a manner that frightens off non-Vic clubs

And I still think last year was unique in that our recruiters genuinely felt that there would be two players available at the picks we traded for of similar ability to the one player we might have selected with our single pick. The go home factor was maybe a consideration but a minor one and certainly not something they’d ever concede publicly

 

[Shueygod]

If the trade for pick 1 is a top 5 pick, top 10 pick and a low teens I’d be very keen.

 

[MrWoollie]

Buy high? How? Cost v benefit.

As a FA its a no brainer.

As a pre agent trade we need to offer more than a 2024 compo pick 12ish.

2024 a highly compromised draft from reports also a factor.

The progress of Bailey Williams is improving which is a positive and if English did ask to come across Bailey could be going the other way. Or just joins the ruck merry go round.

Buy high? How? Cost v benefit.
By recruiting a player at the peak of their career. That's the very definition of 'buying high'.
And that also leads into the Cost v Benefit. He'd be being recruited at a time when he would be able to demand maximum salary for maximum time as;
1 - he would need incentive to move,
2 - he'd be at the top of the wage curve and be able to demand that sort of pay from any suitor (us), and
3 - being the one in command of negotiations he would be able to ask for a long term deal.

We'd end up with a very good player for a few years then be stuck with a maximum wage, declining asset for the duration of the contract. Possibly 5-7 years.
No bloody thanks.

 

[Obeanie1]

Buy high? How? Cost v benefit.
By recruiting a player at the peak of their career. That's the very definition of 'buying high'.
And that also leads into the Cost v Benefit. He'd be being recruited at a time when he would be able to demand maximum salary for maximum time as;
1 - he would need incentive to move,
2 - he'd be at the top of the wage curve and be able to demand that sort of pay from any suitor (us), and
3 - being the one in command of negotiations he would be able to ask for a long term deal.

We'd end up with a very good player for a few years then be stuck with a maximum wage, declining asset for the duration of the contract. Possibly 5-7 years.
No bloody thanks.

We have cap space to use and not many decent players to use it on. Front end it and then it drops away in 4 years as the young guns deserve pay rises.

Rucks mature and play their best football between 26 and 31. Some even well past 31.

English has been very durable and hasnt had to travel much and will be peaking in the next 5 years.

The negative nancy comments are very easily refuted in our currrent situation

As for incentive to move he gets well paid whereever he plays. We have much more cap space than the Dogs freed up in the next 5 years. With who to spend it on? Feel free to address that elephant inthe room.

His partner plays netball in Perth. There was a comment he was willing to listen last trade period.

 

[Obeanie1]

You add Robertson for cheap, to Yeo and Kelly, with Ginbey and Hewett a year older, that helps far better in the short term than any midfield draftee from this year.

You could be lucky and still have Clay Hall available at your 4th pick.

And you still have next year to add more mids to your side, in a draft that is looking more mid heavy.

Chances are we draft our nga Livingston this draft. As early as pick 19. Beast of a forward / ruck. The exact kp forward we need to balance our attack with Oscar Allen and a 3rd tall forward. Be interesting if we retain Waterman and or gain Georgiades or Johnson from Collingwood (who I rate better than Waterman abiet playing in a decent side).

Bit of a split camp on chasing English and Naughton in the next 2 to 3 seasons.

 

[Obeanie1]

But I'm not talking about when you're serious contenders again. I'm talking about next season. My point was (replying to ziad post as the OP) not even Harley Reid will help your midfield improve next year.

Yes you need mids for your next contending team. I was just saying in my opinion KPP's should be a priority as well.

It's a fait accompli that Robertson will join you at the end of the season. That's one inside mid you add to the weekends team that will help immediately. Add Hewett, and that's another. You've got a decent midfield there, that can win the ball and get it forward.

You've got another 2 or 3 drafts in the bottom 6 after this season, to add more mids.


I'm not arguing against drafting Harley reid either, just thinking if splitting pick 1 was a likelihood due to the Reid rumours, then I might look at a different strategy this year.

I also have it in the back of my mind that other players that will help with being more competitive will become available (and for cheap) over the next couple of seasons.

Did Ashcroft help improve the Lions midfield this year?

18 yr old talls wont help next year either.

Sheezel and Wardlaw are helping North in year 1.

Why bypass the best talent chasing improvement for next season? Wierd.

 

[briztoon]

You very rarely, if ever, hear West Coast say the go home factor is an issue when selecting draftees. Even last year when GWS publicly stated they ignored certain players and it was widely believed West Coast were targeting local draftees they maintained there was no issue drafting players outside WA

The reason for that imo is to avoid precisely what you’re alluding to. They don’t want it to become standard practice for Victorian draftees to behave in a manner that frightens off non-Vic clubs

And I still think last year was unique in that our recruiters genuinely felt that there would be two players available at the picks we traded for of similar ability to the one player we might have selected with our single pick. The go home factor was maybe a consideration but a minor one and certainly not something they’d ever concede publicly

Just my personal opinion again, I believe the West Coast recruiters would also be very aware that they have very little future opportunity of generating extra high end picks to help with West Coasts rebuild.

Most clubs in a similar situation, often look to trade out one or two players (over a couple of seasons) for late first or early second round picks.

Or they let walk a restricted free agent for band 1 or band 2 compensation.

 

[briztoon]

Did Ashcroft help improve the Lions midfield this year?

18 yr old talls wont help next year either.

Sheezel and Wardlaw are helping North in year 1.

Why bypass the best talent chasing improvement for next season? Wierd.

Ashcroft walked in to a situation where he’s not expected to be the prime mover in the midfield.

If Harley Reid is the best player this year, he’s not at Ashcroft or McKercher’s level for being ready to contribute as a full time mid.

 

[darksquare]

Shumacher would be better than a fair few on our current list.

Angus or Michael?


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[Obeanie1]

Just my personal opinion again, I believe the West Coast recruiters would also be very aware that they have very little future opportunity of generating extra high end picks to help with West Coasts rebuild.

Most clubs in a similar situation, often look to trade out one or two players (over a couple of seasons) for late first or early second round picks.

Or they let walk a restricted free agent for band 1 or band 2 compensation.

Eagles turned one 1st into 2 last draft.

Prior to that they split their 1st dropping two spots and landing Ports F 2nd.

They traded Rioli for a F2nd.

They will hold top 5 picks if not the number 1 pick two years in a row.

They rarely trade future picks which they should look at more often. I'd be shopping around our future 1st to see how that can be split.

And I expect a player or two will be traded at seasons end. May not get top picks but we can always purchase better picks with points.

Our traditional lack of player turnover is a double edged sword.

 

[Wooshaaaa]

And that what makes Yeo difficult to value.

No it doesn't. His value is Nada if he can't get on the park.



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[Wooshaaaa]

Devs a work horse type. Not sure if he can translate it to AFL level tho

How many in our current squad are a "workhorse". Not many!

Take him and tell him to go trundle out for 25 touches and 10tackles for 200 games. Put xfactor around a work horse

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[Wooshaaaa]

Quite rare for players to have growth spurts like Allen did.

No it's not. Particularly the taller players. Most haven't finished growing at 18

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[Keys]

Proof that Dev is discussed too much in this thread

 

[javaguice]

So are we grabbing that Maric kid?

193cm seems a bit on the short side (....yes I know Jack Darlings height)

 

[Obeanie1]

No it doesn't. His value is Nada if he can't get on the park.



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Duh! Injured players aren't worth much.

And if he strings together games and form similar Shuey last season?

As I said. Yeo is difficult to value.

 

[Obeanie1]

So are we grabbing that Maric kid?

193cm seems a bit on the short side (....yes I know Jack Darlings height)

Same height as Van Rooyen.

 

[Deepthroat]

So are we grabbing that Maric kid?

193cm seems a bit on the short side (....yes I know Jack Darlings height)

One glaring list deficiency we have is a real lack of KF depth. The squad coming into this season was already criminally light on this type.

Allen is a lock.

Darling is almost cooked and will have no meaningful impact in the next tilt.

Waterman is, at best, a third KF. He is not a big dog. He cannot assume the role of a consistent, goalkicking, big dog.


Then Darling gets injured.....


The list has no other player capable of even achieving a par score as a KF.

That the best kid available is a KF appears to be a gift from the gods. At least the best kid is not a HBF type.

 

[Eastcoasteagle]

The problem is currently and this may change over the champs but the only key position player that is ranked high that we can pick (won’t get Walter or Ethan Read) is Curtin. Archer has the slides on a little and O’Sullivan and Patton are not top 10 at this point in time. Nate Caddy is the other but I can imagine the melts in here picking a 192cm key forward with a top 5 pick.

This time last year everyone in here was saying you can’t take Buss with a top 5 pick as he’s a Defender. So unless Curtin can really show he’s a utility which he hasn’t shown enough of then what’s the difference?
Do we pick a key back with a top 5 selection?

I'm all in on Harley Reid, the offer would have to be too good to refuse.
Future midfield of Hewitt, Reid and Ginbey is tantalising.

I'm confident there will be some good tall options with our 2nd or 3rd picks - Archer Reid or Curtun may fall to our 2nd, Livingstone our 3rd.
Also, George Stevens (tad smaller) but very good defender, Patton, O'Sullivan like you mentioned.

So take Reid based on talent first, find him a pretty Perth girl and get him a dog for the Simpson cup. Then look at tall options, will still be some decent talent.

 

[Obeanie1]

How many in our current squad are a "workhorse". Not many!

Take him and tell him to go trundle out for 25 touches and 10tackles for 200 games. Put xfactor around a work horse

On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

Someone needs to do the heavy lifting and dig the ball out to the play makers.

 

[Obeanie1]

I'm all in on Harley Reid, the offer would have to be too good to refuse.
Future midfield of Hewitt, Reid and Ginbey is tantalising.

I'm confident there will be some good tall options with our 2nd or 3rd picks - Archer Reid or Curtun may fall to our 2nd, Livingstone our 3rd.
Also, George Stevens (tad smaller) but very good defender, Patton, O'Sullivan like you mentioned.

So take Reid based on talent first, find him a pretty Perth girl and get him a dog for the Simpson cup. Then look at tall options, will still be some decent talent.

Ried, Ginbey, Hewett and a 21 yr old Robertson certainly looks like a refreshing start to a midfield rebuild.

Hopefully Hough, Chesser and Long can develop as mids as well.

 

[JackOutback]

But I'm not talking about when you're serious contenders again. I'm talking about next season. My point was (replying to ziad post as the OP) not even Harley Reid will help your midfield improve next year.

Yes you need mids for your next contending team. I was just saying in my opinion KPP's should be a priority as well.

It's a fait accompli that Robertson will join you at the end of the season. That's one inside mid you add to the weekends team that will help immediately. Add Hewett, and that's another. You've got a decent midfield there, that can win the ball and get it forward.

You've got another 2 or 3 drafts in the bottom 6 after this season, to add more mids.


I'm not arguing against drafting Harley reid either, just thinking if splitting pick 1 was a likelihood due to the Reid rumours, then I might look at a different strategy this year.

I also have it in the back of my mind that other players that will help with being more competitive will become available (and for cheap) over the next couple of seasons.

We're not interested in next season, we're interested in our next flag. We will need KPPs as well, but if there's a genuine A+ midfield star on the table, you take him because every team needs at least one genuine jet. Later picks and free agency can be used to sort the rest.

 

[briztoon]

Eagles turned one 1st into 2 last draft.

Prior to that they split their 1st dropping two spots and landing Ports F 2nd.

That was kind of what I was replying to in my post.

One possible reason for splitting their pick last year, was because they lack other means of generating extra high end picks in the future. Other than splitting top end picks again.

They traded Rioli for a F2nd.

They will hold top 5 picks if not the number 1 pick two years in a row.
They rarely trade future picks which they should look at more often. I'd be shopping around our future 1st to see how that can be split.

I’m not against trading future picks, bringing them forward, but unless you get particularly lucky with who you trade with, the team trading the future pick often doesn’t get perceived value on the trade.

Plus you need a good understanding of the future draft, which I definitely don’t.

In all likelihood WC are a bottom 2 team next year, and at this stage I can’t imagine a current bottom team 10 team you’d be happy trading with.

The teams likely to be willing to trade might be Gold Coast (and they’re still going to want a second round pick back this year as well in such a trade), Sydney or Geelong.

And I expect a player or two will be traded at seasons end. May not get top picks but we can always purchase better picks with points.

Curious who you have on your list of potential tradeable players.

Our traditional lack of player turnover is a double edged sword.

I need to go do some work, but splitting your second round pick for say two picks in the 28 to 32 range might be a possibility, and worth a discussion, if you believe you’ll have to draft Livingston inside the top 40.