Roast Cooked against the Saints - Rd 2, 2019

[Lore]

I know we can play better than that, which is the whole issue. If I thought that was our ceiling, I wouldn't care. Never said we couldn't play better. When have I said we can't improve?

What you actually asked, was this:

One question. Are St Kilda with all their injuries better than us?

Not sure what answer you were expecting? 11 points better is the literal answer which we both know and should not need to ask. So you need to elaborate on that question if you want some other sort of answer.

If you say that we as supporters cannot expect for the team to beat St Kilda and perform better than what they dished up yesterday, then the club is completely stuffed.

If no, then we're expected to win. If the answer is yes, then why did the club sell the farm if we're a bottom 4 team?

Do you believe that every team plays their best footy every week? Do you think that this is a reasonable expectation? Do you sincerely believe that upsets are uncommon? Were you really expecting us to win yesterday? Did you emotionally invest in that idea?

Idealism is the cornerstone of disappointment.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Zaka poor tackle attempt in the 2nd that led to Dunstan goal, the poor effort in the last qtr when Sinclair our marked him. For one of our most experienced players, that has to be better. Plus he always starts seasons poorly, why?

Bags, Tippa and Raz badly out of touch. Raz’s confidence is so shot that first minute in the last when he was free and missed, he could have run to nearly the goal square, but he shot straight away in panic.

Pressure in forward line not good enough. Very poor getting out of backline. Letting Savage sit as spare and watching him clean up without doing a thing to counteract.

I’ve liked Guelfi in games last year but anything he does back or on wing can be done better by Ridley. Guelfi may be goes a little harder but not enough to offset the skill difference.

Myers, hate him as much as you want but we need, and don’t have any bigger bodied mids, especially with Langford down.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

"What is is with Saints fans? Around our area they gave Francis heaps every time he went near the ball."

Excuse the intrusion but you've asked the question so I feel obliged to answer.

Carlisle deal - media reckoned we lost badly in the trade because you guys got Francis. But they completely forgot that we also got Pick 44 from you which we turned into a young bloke called Jade Gresham. So Saints fans feel pretty happy with the deal even with Carlisle out for the year and Francis playing some reasonable football.

Have to say you side looks exactly like us at the start of last year - completely bereft of confidence - ours was due to injuries to key players and a complete failure to implement/understand a new defensive structure.

As an outsider looking in - it looked exactly the same yesterday for the Dons.

Pretty sure gresham wasn’t pick 44.....

And LOL that you are booing Francis because of the trade? Not his choice?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Supporters need to shoulder some of the blame here. Not enough of us went to Marvel to make it our fortress.

Yeah

That’s why we lost....

 

[Old Stuckup]

Here is the side I would like to see by the end of the year:

B: Francis - Hooker - Gleeson
HB: McKenna - Hurley - Saad
C: McGrath - Parish - Merrett
HF: Langford - Daniher - Stringer
F: Fantasia - Stewart - McDonald-Tipungwuti
R: Draper - Shiel - Heppell
I/C: Begley - Ridley - Redman - Laverde

 

[JayJ20]

What you actually asked, was this:


Not sure what answer you were expecting? 11 points better is the literal answer which we both know and should not need to ask. So you need to elaborate on that question if you want some other sort of answer.



Do you believe that every team plays their best footy every week? Do you think that this is a reasonable expectation? Do you sincerely believe that upsets are uncommon? Were you really expecting us to win yesterday? Did you emotionally invest in that idea?

Idealism is the cornerstone of disappointment.

Ah cmon. You know why I asked that question. Look at what you quoted when I asked you that question.

No I don't believe every team plays their best footy every week, but any decent team would have put St Kilda away yesterday. I didn't emotionally invest in a win because I know how garbage our club is.

Fact is, we underperformed because we're a lazy and undisciplined side.

 

[Lore]

Ah cmon. You know why I asked that question. Look at what you quoted when I asked you that question.

No I don't believe every team plays their best footy every week, but any decent team would have put St Kilda away yesterday. I didn't emotionally invest in a win because I know how garbage our club is.

Fact is, we underperformed because we're a lazy and undisciplined side.

Well I answered your question and you clearly didn't like the answer I gave you, so I answered it again. I'm not going to go round in circles JJ.

I'm sorry that we're not a half decent side at the moment.

 

[JayJ20]

Well I answered your question and you clearly didn't like the answer I gave you, so I answered it again. I'm not going to go round in circles JJ.

I'm sorry that we're not a half decent side at the moment.

No my question to you was in relation to expectations pre-game. Being 11 points better on the day is not an answer to the question.

 

[yodellinhank]

Expected by whom?

All and sundry.

 

[Bombermania]

Something isn't right atm.

Don't think you can put it onto one area either. Langers and gueffi ignoring the ball to get to the bench is beyond anything a coach can do,

There was a Saints kick into the corridor at one point there their was 3 dons to the 1 saint, it was marked by the 1 uncontested.


our gameplan too is off,

There was a bit of that with groups of Essendon players basically standing around only to lose the contest or to win the contest and be static. It reminded me of what Richmond use to do 4 or 5 years ago when they had a group of players around the edge of the centre square.

 

[PrinceCharles]

"What is is with Saints fans? Around our area they gave Francis heaps every time he went near the ball."

Excuse the intrusion but you've asked the question so I feel obliged to answer.

Carlisle deal - media reckoned we lost badly in the trade because you guys got Francis. But they completely forgot that we also got Pick 44 from you which we turned into a young bloke called Jade Gresham. So Saints fans feel pretty happy with the deal even with Carlisle out for the year and Francis playing some reasonable football.

Have to say you side looks exactly like us at the start of last year - completely bereft of confidence - ours was due to injuries to key players and a complete failure to implement/understand a new defensive structure.

As an outsider looking in - it looked exactly the same yesterday for the Dons.

This is one of the more pathetic things I've heard on this forum.

 

[Fridge16]

One of the best things about this club is the loyalty of fans. It’s also the worst thing, the club gets 70k members before round 1 after 18 years of mediocrity. Maybe if we jumped off when things are bad like supporters of other clubs (Richmond, Hawthorn, Geelong etc) it would force the club to actually do something to get some on field results and get members again.

Currently they make good money through a massive membership base even if they are consistently crap every year.

 

[AsIfYouCare]

Could agree with all except Tipungwuti for now... only listened to the call. I'll shut up.

Tipungwuti wasn't good. Missed so many tackles, and that has been his strength in the past. Unfit maybe.

 

[Highly Evolved]

Here is the side I would like to see by the end of the year:

B: Francis - Hooker - Gleeson
HB: McKenna - Hurley - Saad
C: McGrath - Parish - Merrett
HF: Langford - Daniher - Stringer
F: Fantasia - Stewart - McDonald-Tipungwuti
R: Draper - Shiel - Heppell
I/C: Begley - Ridley - Redman - Laverde

No room for Smith? That's a big call.

 

[Old Stuckup]

No room for Smith? That's a big call.

Knew I forgot someone. Bring him in for one of the bench players.

 

[Lore]

No my question to you was in relation to expectations pre-game. Being 11 points better on the day is not an answer to the question.

My expectations pre-game? Like everyone else, I expected improvement, but with last week and last year as the precedent, all bets are off. We're not the kind of team that thrashes a bad team, we at the very least keep them in it, assuming we don't get thrashed in the first place. So I didn't expect a win, and I didn't really expect a loss either. If we had've won by more than 20 points I would've been pleasantly surprised. If we'd lost by more than that I'd have been equally surprised, though not as pleasantly. Even then I still tipped us to win by 5 points in the margin comp, with very little confidence.

So what did I expect? Well the base line we have from last week is a game with very little evidence of team defence, intent, strategy, skills or heart (highly concerning, but also difficult to play any worse). I think expecting improvement in all areas is feasible, but there's something bigger going on with learning the team defence strategy that Rutten is meant to be coaching, and getting the message out from the coaches to adapt or reinforce the strategy mid-quarter. Those things will take a little longer to perfect.

Heart and intent demonstrated by the players is about attitude, and is relatively easy to fix. We had a reality check last week. When the attitude is right, the basics of team defence will follow.

Team defence we didn't seem to have at all last week, though it's easier to see what's going on at the ground, rather than with a zoomed in shot on the TV. It's a matter of being evident at all before it can be judged. Not sure you can put a timeframe on that coming into existence as a complete strategy, but the little things like tackling and shepherding aren't actually difficult and I was pleased to see they were doing that last night.

Skills are an interesting one, because we know as individuals they all had those skills. The question is, why were their skills so bad last week? If we were bad last week because of rain or a greasy surface you could expect a return to usual programming. But it wasn't raining or greasy last week that I know of, so the cause must be something else. Are we putting ourselves under pressure? Failing to shepherd, passing to a guy already under pressure? Or are we just not providing good options in the first place? If it's literally just down to not putting ourselves under pressure then that team defence stuff will see our skills improve enormously. These things are coachable, but I don't think it's too much to expect that the players already know how to do this, they just need to actually do it.

It is difficult to discern a strategy when you're running around like a headless chook (or not running at all) and playing the game on the opposition's terms. As long as we were getting the other stuff right, it's not a stretch to expect us to at least have a strategy evident yesterday. Whether it could be expected to work or not depended on what exactly the strategy was, the opponent, how it can be adapted throughout the game. Beyond the basics (like a forward press with Hurley hanging back to cut off any loose ends) it seems heavily reliant on the coaches and runners for execution, the latter of which we don't have this year due to rule changes. This is something that needs to be addressed by the leadership group, some combination of taking the initiative to switch, adapt or reinforce the strategy themselves, finding a way for them to communicate with the coaches box to get their feedback, and then getting that message out to the playing group.

 

[fishardansin]

Here is the side I would like to see by the end of the year:

B: Francis - Hooker - Gleeson
HB: McKenna - Hurley - Saad
C: McGrath - Parish - Merrett
HF: Langford - Daniher - Stringer
F: Fantasia - Stewart - McDonald-Tipungwuti
R: Draper - Shiel - Heppell
I/C: Begley - Ridley - Redman - Laverde

I like it. The only thing I'd change is swapping Stringer and Stewart. I want Stringer to be the goal square man with fewer kms while up forward so he has plenty in reserve for runs on the ball. I also think if we have Langford, Daniher and Stewart running lots of kms as marking targets we move the ball quicker and Fantasia is the guy who leads at the ball from deep, then Stringer and Tippa are the best to take advantage of the mayhem that fast ball-movement causes opposition zones. I also believe that Daniher and Stewart draw the tall intercepting defenders out of the 50.

I would like Langford, Laverde, Begley, Stringer and Tippa to be part of the forward-midfield rotation, taking 6-10 centre bounces between them per quarter. Fantasia to spend some time on the wing. Laverde and Langford to include a few minutes on the wing as part of their midfield rotation.

McGrath to remain part of the backline, but part of the midfield rotation. McGrath's midfield minutes to be on ball, not a wing. Heppell, Gleeson, Ridley, Redman and McKenna to rotate through halfback and the wing.

I'll back Bellchambers to recapture his form by the end of the season, but dropping him for Draper once or twice in the meantime might get the message across, as well as get some games into Draper. I think our long term plan with Draper is that he's a back up that gets the occasional game this year, almost neck and neck with Bellchambers next year and in 2021 Draper is the man and Bellchambers is the experienced depth on the list while we start developing the kid to follow on from Draper. I would choose Stewart as the backup ruck normally, but if he's feeling strong it would be good to have Hooker running through the ground taking contested marks for small bursts as well, especially if we don't have too many talls to cover down back.

I'd also give Francis a few minutes up forward each half of the game. There is no reason why we couldn't set up with Hooker and Hurley, two of Ridley, Redman and Gleeson and two of Saad, McKenna and McGrath down back. If Stringer is having a run on the ball it would be good for Francis to start in the goal square and have a licence to fly for marks. While he will primarily be a backman it will be great for his development to spend time up forward and continue to have him as that saviour type that he was at VFL level. It is also another thing the opposition has to plan for.

There is one change I'd make to your side. Smith in for Parish. I am sure it was just a mistake to not put Smith in there though. Of the mids in that side, the only ones I have had as part of forward or backline rotation are Smith Shiel and Merrett. I'd play all of them as pure mids. Smith to be our player who spends the most time on the bench to manage his knees. Merrett should be on a wing, like you have, because he's just too small to have as a key ball winner. We need to try to get him on the outside to devastate with his disposal as well.


B: Francis - Hurley - Saad
HB: McKenna - Hooker - Gleeson
C: McGrath - Smith - Merrett
HF: Langford - Daniher - Stewart
F: Fantasia - Stringer - McDonald-Tipungwuti
R: Bellchambers - Shiel - Heppell
I/C: Begley - Ridley - Redman - Laverde

This team has a huge midfield rotation of Shiel, Smith, McGrath, Begley, Laverde, Heppell, Tippa, Stringer, Langford.
Wings rotation of Merret, Heppell, Gleeson, Redman, Ridley, Fantasia, Langford and McKenna.
Ruck rotations of Bellchambers, Stewart and Hooker.

The only 100% stay at home defenders are Hurley and Saad. The only 100% stay at home forward is Daniher.

This not only means we have heaps of depth moving through the midfield. If, for example, Langford has three roles he can fill each game so if he's off in one it will take the pressure off because he has other ways to contribute.

We have marking, run and aggression on the wings. We have three very good intercepting marks in the backline. If we want we could have McGrath, Saad and McKenna all down back, which would create so much speed it would be impossible to stop.

Our midfield can set up with the size of one of Laverde, Stringer or Langford and have the breakaway speed of Shiel, Smith or McGrath.

We have a half-forward line that can run hard and mark. We have a small forward who can lead hard at the ball. We have two forwards who can feast on chaos.

Despite how bad we have started this year, that is a team I would expect to win at least one final. If it had a good run with injuries and built up confidence perhaps more than one final.

Some of the players who are frustratingly spudish or soft would still make decent depth.

Draper, Z. Clarke, Ambrose, Hartley, Myers, Zaka, Parish, Baguely, Brown, McKernan, Guelfi, Jok, D. Clarke, McNiece, Dea and Zerk-Thatcher can all play a role in a team that is flying.

I also think that with an extended run in the 2s might see Myers, Zaka, Parish and McKernan find the form to bang the door down for reselection. I also see Parish playing most weeks because he'd be my next in line for the midfield and it is doubtful that you'd have everyone available on a given week. If he gets going then Zaka is definitely best 22, but he should not be playing in current form. Myers has lots of tools, like body size and kicking. For mine, McKernan plays while Daniher is out and one of Brown, Ambrose or Hartley play while Hooker is out.

 

[cAsEy_18]

I like it. The only thing I'd change is swapping Stringer and Stewart. I want Stringer to be the goal square man with fewer kms while up forward so he has plenty in reserve for runs on the ball. I also think if we have Langford, Daniher and Stewart running lots of kms as marking targets we move the ball quicker and Fantasia is the guy who leads at the ball from deep, then Stringer and Tippa are the best to take advantage of the mayhem that fast ball-movement causes opposition zones. I also believe that Daniher and Stewart draw the tall intercepting defenders out of the 50.

I would like Langford, Laverde, Begley, Stringer and Tippa to be part of the forward-midfield rotation, taking 6-10 centre bounces between them per quarter. Fantasia to spend some time on the wing. Laverde and Langford to include a few minutes on the wing as part of their midfield rotation.

McGrath to remain part of the backline, but part of the midfield rotation. McGrath's midfield minutes to be on ball, not a wing. Heppell, Gleeson, Ridley, Redman and McKenna to rotate through halfback and the wing.

I'll back Bellchambers to recapture his form by the end of the season, but dropping him for Draper once or twice in the meantime might get the message across, as well as get some games into Draper. I think our long term plan with Draper is that he's a back up that gets the occasional game this year, almost neck and neck with Bellchambers next year and in 2021 Draper is the man and Bellchambers is the experienced depth on the list while we start developing the kid to follow on from Draper. I would choose Stewart as the backup ruck normally, but if he's feeling strong it would be good to have Hooker running through the ground taking contested marks for small bursts as well, especially if we don't have too many talls to cover down back.

I'd also give Francis a few minutes up forward each half of the game. There is no reason why we couldn't set up with Hooker and Hurley, two of Ridley, Redman and Gleeson and two of Saad, McKenna and McGrath down back. If Stringer is having a run on the ball it would be good for Francis to start in the goal square and have a licence to fly for marks. While he will primarily be a backman it will be great for his development to spend time up forward and continue to have him as that saviour type that he was at VFL level. It is also another thing the opposition has to plan for.

There is one change I'd make to your side. Smith in for Parish. I am sure it was just a mistake to not put Smith in there though. Of the mids in that side, the only ones I have had as part of forward or backline rotation are Smith Shiel and Merrett. I'd play all of them as pure mids. Smith to be our player who spends the most time on the bench to manage his knees. Merrett should be on a wing, like you have, because he's just too small to have as a key ball winner. We need to try to get him on the outside to devastate with his disposal as well.


B: Francis - Hurley - Saad
HB: McKenna - Hooker - Gleeson
C: McGrath - Smith - Merrett
HF: Langford - Daniher - Stewart
F: Fantasia - Stringer - McDonald-Tipungwuti
R: Bellchambers - Shiel - Heppell
I/C: Begley - Ridley - Redman - Laverde

This team has a huge midfield rotation of Shiel, Smith, McGrath, Begley, Laverde, Heppell, Tippa, Stringer, Langford.
Wings rotation of Merret, Heppell, Gleeson, Redman, Ridley, Fantasia, Langford and McKenna.
Ruck rotations of Bellchambers, Stewart and Hooker.

The only 100% stay at home defenders are Hurley and Saad. The only 100% stay at home forward is Daniher.

This not only means we have heaps of depth moving through the midfield. If, for example, Langford has three roles he can fill each game so if he's off in one it will take the pressure off because he has other ways to contribute.

We have marking, run and aggression on the wings. We have three very good intercepting marks in the backline. If we want we could have McGrath, Saad and McKenna all down back, which would create so much speed it would be impossible to stop.

Our midfield can set up with the size of one of Laverde, Stringer or Langford and have the breakaway speed of Shiel, Smith or McGrath.

We have a half-forward line that can run hard and mark. We have a small forward who can lead hard at the ball. We have two forwards who can feast on chaos.

Despite how bad we have started this year, that is a team I would expect to win at least one final. If it had a good run with injuries and built up confidence perhaps more than one final.

Some of the players who are frustratingly spudish or soft would still make decent depth.

Draper, Z. Clarke, Ambrose, Hartley, Myers, Zaka, Parish, Baguely, Brown, McKernan, Guelfi, Jok, D. Clarke, McNiece, Dea and Zerk-Thatcher can all play a role in a team that is flying.

I also think that with an extended run in the 2s might see Myers, Zaka, Parish and McKernan find the form to bang the door down for reselection. I also see Parish playing most weeks because he'd be my next in line for the midfield and it is doubtful that you'd have everyone available on a given week. If he gets going then Zaka is definitely best 22, but he should not be playing in current form. Myers has lots of tools, like body size and kicking. For mine, McKernan plays while Daniher is out and one of Brown, Ambrose or Hartley play while Hooker is out.

Agreed.

 

[Thebisc]

Something isn't right atm.

Don't think you can put it onto one area either. Langers and gueffi ignoring the ball to get to the bench is beyond anything a coach can do,

There was a Saints kick into the corridor at one point there their was 3 dons to the 1 saint, it was marked by the 1 uncontested.


our gameplan too is off,

I know I might be drawing a long bow but I think the Langford/Guelfi incident is a reflection on the coach/s to some degree.
To me that incident says those guys are playing with a mentality that they don’t want responsibility...it looked like ‘get me the hell off so someone else can take the heat of being on an AFL ground’. The complete lack of confidence so many players appear to have is a reflection on how they are prepared mentally for a really tough competition to play in. That awful incident sums up so many things about the first 2 weeks(plus JLT)....or maybe those players are just really really daft!!

I just can’t for the life me understand what the hell the whole club was doing over summer.

 

[Lore]

I know I might be drawing a long bow but I think the Langford/Guelfi incident is a reflection on the coach/s to some degree.
To me that incident says those guys are playing with a mentality that they don’t want responsibility...it looked like ‘get me the hell off so someone else can take the heat of being on an AFL ground’. The complete lack of confidence so many players appear to have is a reflection on how they are prepared mentally for a really tough competition to play in. That awful incident sums up so many things about the first 2 weeks(plus JLT)....or maybe those players are just really really daft!!

I just can’t for the life me understand what the hell the whole club was doing over summer.

hm. I think that might be over egging the pudding just a tad.

 

[brutus76]

Bombers - see how those Lions kids ran hard both ways and ran over the top of Norf?

TAKE NOTES!!!!!!

Lazy ***** *******!

 

[Thebisc]

hm. I think that might be over egging the pudding just a tad.

Yeah maybe...or probably even.
But...majority of AFL players would, when the ball is loose in their direct area, see it as an opportunity to get a possession and help the team. These 2 wanted to get off the ground as soon as they knew it was their turn. i see that as a mindset issue.
I get that it sounds far fetched but I’m trying really hard to make some sense of that incident(not to mention every other aspect of the current shit show)

 

[Eleven 38]

One of the best things about this club is the loyalty of fans. It’s also the worst thing, the club gets 70k members before round 1 after 18 years of mediocrity. Maybe if we jumped off when things are bad like supporters of other clubs (Richmond, Hawthorn, Geelong etc) it would force the club to actually do something to get some on field results and get members again.

Currently they make good money through a massive membership base even if they are consistently crap every year.

This has got me thinking, we always hear in American sports about teams that are in it just to make money, not to win titles. Are we one of those clubs?

After 2007 and the sacking of sheedy, have we as a club forgotten what the main goal is?

It seems to always be about the membership number and making money before winning flags now.

I cant help but think now that the club hired Hird to bring in members more so than to win flags. Then the saga happened and the club had to change gears to pay all the debts they ended up with. Now we looked to be moving up the ladder club gets members and huge sponsorships.

But here we are round 3 going off field looks good. But the onfield/footy department is still in no mans land.

 

[chrisdon16]

I'm really getting sick and tired of Worsfold acting like he got 5 nuggets in his 6 nugget meal Deal in the pressers. The man is coaching for a pay cheque. There is no passion there. The players aren't playing for him. Time for a change

 

[TheBrightSide]

I'm really getting sick and tired of Worsfold acting like he got 5 nuggets in his 6 nugget meal Deal in the pressers. The man is coaching for a pay cheque. There is no passion there. The players aren't playing for him. Time for a change

Liked for the Meal Deal analogy.