Game Day Crows V Weagles 21 Feb

[Sanders]

Head coach objective---win game

That is all that matters.

Is that you Stephen?

 

[Sanders]

It truly is astonishing to me that there are folks who apparently are serious in desiring not to make the 8.

Just completely mind boggling on so many levels.

Very glad the organization does not share those sentiments. Very glad indeed.

Actually I think the organisation does share those goals now; they didn't use to but I think they've become smarter about it

Walsh was a big one for talking about building towards your window of contention; and the organisation was fully supportive of that

The playing of lever last year was a clear example of how the organisations thinking has changed

 

[Sanders]

Of course it is better. The nonsense being bantied around here about playing for 2017 and how horrible it is to finish 5th--8th borders on absurdity.

The object of the game is to win. No matter the sport, no matter the level.

Honestly, it is dumbfounding reading some of these posts. I guess the great news for the Cleveland Browns is they should pick up a hell of a lot of South Australian fans this off season. They put into practice nearly everything some posters desire the Crows to do. Those new fans will be pleased to know they have not been in the 8 since 2002 and most assuredly won't be playing for 2016 this season. Enjoy.

Look I do understand what you mean, and year on year if there is no winning it grinds on a team. Get that totally

Which is where we have largely been since 2010

That 2010-14 shit storm was as a result of the club doing no forward planning in the prior 5 or 6 years, and betting the house on sneaking into 8th spot.

It's not binary, but sometimes you need to make calls on players: do i play substandard senior players which will help me beat the woeful teams, but won't get me near the good ones? That will get me 8th out of beating up Browns like teams without being anywhere near contention

Or do I forget those handful of senior players, with limited ability and upside and invest in those young guys with the ability to go much further?

8th is fine if you are passing through on an upward swing towards real contention,

If 8th is your ceiling it's the worst place on the ladder.

 

[Ramify]

It's foolish to assume Noble's public defense of a player necessarily aligns with his private opinion. Could you imagine him, or anyone in his position, saying "Wright's offering us nothing but Coaches Walsh and Camporeale insist on selecting him every week regardless?" And I guarantee, when selecting Wright for every game he coached, Walsh was not being dictated to by anyone and always had the final call. Noble's public defense of Wright was the right thing to do.

I agree with the sentiment here, but how many coaches has Noble had to bite his tongue for?
Who is the common denominator here and who signs off on contract extensions? Noble or the Various Coaches?

Personally think you have it arse about face, but this I must admit is merely an uneducated opinion.

 

[Ramify]

Of course it is better. The nonsense being bantied around here about playing for 2017 and how horrible it is to finish 5th--8th borders on absurdity.

The object of the game is to win. No matter the sport, no matter the level.

Honestly, it is dumbfounding reading some of these posts. I guess the great news for the Cleveland Browns is they should pick up a hell of a lot of South Australian fans this off season. They put into practice nearly everything some posters desire the Crows to do. Those new fans will be pleased to know they have not been in the 8 since 2002 and most assuredly won't be playing for 2016 this season. Enjoy.

They all exist to win premierships. Ask any player if he'd prefer a positive win/ loss record or a premiership come careers end I'm sure you will get the same response from every one of them.

Short term pain for long term gain vs sustained mediocrity it is in a nutshell.
Know which one I'd prefer.

 

[SpeciousArgument]

Hawthorn didn't

How many clubs have had a rebuild and how many clubs have done it sucessfully? Hawthorn is the exception at this point, not the rule.

 

[Sanders]

How many clubs have had a rebuild and how many clubs have done it sucessfully? Hawthorn is the exception at this point, not the rule.

Geelong? Collingwood?

 

[Iron]

The "keep winning because any finals exposure is good" argument falls down if, when we actually make finals, we don't okay the kids we want exposed to finals.

I actually don't think we did this too badly last year. We unearthed some good talent but we did waste game time on players like Wright who obviously was headed straight for delisting. Room for improvement.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

How many clubs have had a rebuild and how many clubs have done it sucessfully? Hawthorn is the exception at this point, not the rule.

Surely we prove that our method doesn't work

 

[crowsup]

Most of the posters that want DMack and VB out of the team, have been saying this for the last 3-4 years. What I would like these posters to do is name the draftees we have had in the last 4 years that were and/or are capable of displacing them. Which of the rookies and draftees that we have delisted in the last 4 years would have been capable of displacing them? Does anyone believe that if we had kept Curnow, Vince, Kerridge or any other draftee or rookie we got rid of, we would have played or be now closer to playing in a grand final?
It is all very well and good to just point the finger at two players or the choices the selection committee make and believe that if that is changed, we would be winning enough games to be top 4.
To make a long story short, I do not believe that, in the last 4-5 years, we have had any enough good draftees to displace these 2 players.
What I believe now is that, if these two players do not improve on what they gave last year, in the first 3-4 games, they may very well be playing in the seconds for the rest of their contracts. The reason I believe this is because I think that we have finally brought in enough good new talent capable of overhauling VB and DMack.

 

[1970crow]

I have already ad naseum explained my position. I explained exactly why your stance is flawed in rather decent detail. I don't need to regurgitate it again.

You disagree--that is perfectly your right.

Nothing more is to be gained from rehashing arguments already laid out over the last couple days. I am not going to change your stance nor will you change mine.

It is a shame you don't follow the Browns. You would honestly enjoy their philosophy. It perfectly matches your own feelings on how a program should be run. The results certainly speak volumes of that particular route to success.

At any rate, it is all good. The season will play out for us soon enough. The irony is that VB is likely to get dropped if one of the others can actually start to perform consistently. I am always in favor of better talent weeding out lesser talent. At the end of the day the team with the better talent top to bottom generally wins. I am allllllll about winning.

So I hope there comes a day when some of the younger players and others in the SANFL force their way onto the field and stay there. That it hasn't happened yet speaks more to them than anything else.

So you cannot provide a premiership team that doesn't include a top 10 draft pick? But don't you say that making the 8 consistently will result in a flag. That is your assertion, how about you provide some evidence that supports that view.

mod deleted personal abuse

 

[SpeciousArgument]

Geelong? Collingwood?

St kilda, bulldogs, richmond, melbourne, port, brisbane, carlton. GWS and Gold Coast have been at the bottom for a while, hows it working out for them? We finished top 2 a couple of years ago, and have played several prelims in the time we havent bottomed out.

 

[Sanders]

St kilda, bulldogs, richmond, melbourne, port, brisbane, carlton. GWS and Gold Coast have been at the bottom for a while, hows it working out for them? We finished top 2 a couple of years ago, and have played several prelims in the time we havent bottomed out.

Not sure I understand your point

Is anyone suggesting what we have done has worked?

 

[SpeciousArgument]

Not sure I understand your point

Is anyone suggesting what we have done has worked?

Im not entirely sure i understand yours.

You seem to be arguing that not bottoming out is what has hurt us. That would imply you think bottoming out and loading up on draft picks would work for us, in which case i point you to the 9 clubs it has catastrophically failed for.

Hawthorn and collingwood got priority picks (but so did carlton and melbourne dont forget) which we would never get, and geelong got gary ablett as a father son pick, which we also will never get, especially as theyve subsequently changed the rules.

So really im not sure what you want. everything needs to go right to win a premiership, not just a collection of talent, just ask st kilda fans. We have played prelim finals, and were cheated out of appearing in 2 grand finals in the last decade, which had we played in im pretty sure youd be singing a different tune, so really, im not sure what your problem is.

 

[Sanders]

Im not entirely sure i understand yours.

You seem to be arguing that not bottoming out is what has hurt us. That would imply you think bottoming out and loading up on draft picks would work for us, in which case i point you to the 9 clubs it has catastrophically failed for.

Well this is wrong for a start. It's made clear that it is not a binary choice; secondly there is nothing catastrophic about 9 clubs

thats just silly

Hawthorn and collingwood got priority picks (but so did carlton and melbourne dont forget) which we would never get, and geelong got gary ablett as a father son pick, which we also will never get, especially as theyve subsequently changed the rules.

All 3 clubs rebuilt through the draft, hawthorn in particular trading senior players for draft picks and then when entering the window trading for senior players

So really im not sure what you want. everything needs to go right to win a premiership, not just a collection of talent, just ask st kilda fans. We have played prelim finals, and were cheated out of appearing in 2 grand finals in the last decade, which had we played in im pretty sure youd be singing a different tune, so really, im not sure what your problem is.

I don't think you're sure about much at all.

Saying childish idiocies about being cheated out of grand finals as some way of implying what we are doing works is just ridiculous

St Kilda have had far more success than us in recent times, and that you point to them as an example of what not to do says it all.

They were a bad bounce from a premiership, whilst we have to listen to silly, tenuous excuses from people in denial of reality

 

[SpeciousArgument]

Well this is wrong for a start. It's made clear that it is not a binary choice; secondly there is nothing catastrophic about 9 clubs

thats just silly







All 3 clubs rebuilt through the draft, hawthorn in particular trading senior players for draft picks and then when entering the window trading for senior players




I don't think you're sure about much at all.

Saying childish idiocies about being cheated out of grand finals as some way of implying what we are doing works is just ridiculous

St Kilda have had far more success than us in recent times, and that you point to them as an example of what not to do says it all.

They were a bad bounce from a premiership, whilst we have to listen to silly, tenuous excuses from people in denial of reality

What you dont seem to be getting is that a lot of clubs have rebuilt through the draft, and 8 out of the last 9 premierships were won by teams with advantages we were very unlikely to have, and 7 out of 9 clubs who in recent history have rebuilt through the draft havent won a premiership, which you seem in one instance to use as the only condition for success, but then in the next instance its something else. St Kilda had more success than us because they played in a grand final? why are you allowed to use 'one bounce away' but im not allowed to use 'one kick away'?

 

[Squiba]

IMO, each and every season we should be striving for FIRST spot on the ladder, the top. If we miss and end up looking bound for a guaranteed birth in the top 4, develop some talented youngsters. If we have to push to stay in the top 4, play our very, very best 22 to give us the best chance possible.

Same scenario for the 8, if we are a lock, w/o being able to make the 4, play some kids, if we need to push to make it, push to make it.

So IMO, there is no point aiming for a mere "pass mark" I.e. The top 8, its no longer high school. We need to aim for the top each and every year, and if we fall the likely hood is that we still end up playing finals footy.

Personally I'd be furious if we tanked games, which I don't believe 1970 is suggesting, but I would prefer that we have an all out crack at a flag within the next 5 years, throwing caution to the wind and if it causes us to bottom out after a spell at the top, I'm ok with that*.

*Aslong as it doesn't warrant systematic doping or black ops.

 

[Mattrox]

Im not entirely sure i understand yours.

You seem to be arguing that not bottoming out is what has hurt us. That would imply you think bottoming out and loading up on draft picks would work for us, in which case i point you to the 9 clubs it has catastrophically failed for.

Hawthorn and collingwood got priority picks (but so did carlton and melbourne dont forget) which we would never get, and geelong got gary ablett as a father son pick, which we also will never get, especially as theyve subsequently changed the rules.

So really im not sure what you want. everything needs to go right to win a premiership, not just a collection of talent, just ask st kilda fans. We have played prelim finals, and were cheated out of appearing in 2 grand finals in the last decade, which had we played in im pretty sure youd be singing a different tune, so really, im not sure what your problem is.

I think GWS has so far proven that even unfettered access to the BEST talent in the land to hoard into
one team, does not automatically mean you play finals.....


I mean it's getting all those single digit draft picks that is the key to premierships, right?

 

[GrommoT]

I'd hold off on judging GWS just yet - they could become Frankenstein in a few seasons' time.

 

[moogerfooger]

Have I missed something? Are we talking about replacing half the team with kids or replacing 2 average players with kids who have shown promise and that they can play?

not sure why anyone's even arguing - surely the drafting of Seedsman and Hampton spells the end for Mackay and most likely for VB as well?

they're not even being replaced with kids - we drafted ready made replacements who will be upgrades on both players in Round 1 and still have plenty of upside.

what's not to like?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

not sure why anyone's even arguing - surely the drafting of Seedsman and Hampton spells the end for Mackay and most likely for VB as well?

You'd like to think so but I bet it's players like Knight and Atkins who make way

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

You'd like to think so but I bet it's players like Knight and Atkins who make way

I would be very surprised if knight made way.

Imo, he will be 1st choice 22 when fit.

 

[Paladin]

You'd like to think so but I bet it's players like Knight and Atkins who make way

Knight was selected in front of both last year and I can't see that changing.

 

[AmericanCrow]

Look I do understand what you mean, and year on year if there is no winning it grinds on a team. Get that totally

Which is where we have largely been since 2010

That 2010-14 shit storm was as a result of the club doing no forward planning in the prior 5 or 6 years, and betting the house on sneaking into 8th spot.

It's not binary, but sometimes you need to make calls on players: do i play substandard senior players which will help me beat the woeful teams, but won't get me near the good ones? That will get me 8th out of beating up Browns like teams without being anywhere near contention

Or do I forget those handful of senior players, with limited ability and upside and invest in those young guys with the ability to go much further?

8th is fine if you are passing through on an upward swing towards real contention,

If 8th is your ceiling it's the worst place on the ladder.

But 8th is not the ceiling. Hell last year if we had gone about our business versus the kitty kats we would have had a home final.

It never hurts your club to make Finals. It just doesn't.

 

[AmericanCrow]

Actually I think the organisation does share those goals now; they didn't use to but I think they've become smarter about it

Walsh was a big one for talking about building towards your window of contention; and the organisation was fully supportive of that

The playing of lever last year was a clear example of how the organisations thinking has changed

Not sure I see a difference in thinking. Lever earned his way on and played whilst the organization felt he could help the team win. That is exactly what you want to see.

Incidentally, he has all the makings of being a really good player and we didn't need a single digit draft pick to get him.

Players can always be found. Especially if you have great scouting.