Analysis Cuts to Senior List Sizes

[Baygirl1977]

Afl has just released pay cuts ,


AFL player agents were briefed early on Wednesday afternoon regarding the changes.

Sources with knowledge of negotiations believe this deal is a win for players, who at one stage were facing a 15 to 20 per cent cut in salaries.

As first reported by foxfooty.com.au last Thursday, clubs will only be required to select a minimum of one player in December’s national draft, down from three.

Change in List Size numbers

2020 Total List Sizes: 38-47 | 2021 Total List Sizes: 37-44

2020 Primary List: 38-40 | 2021 Primary List: 36-38

2020 Cat A Rookies: 0-6 | 2021 Cat A Rookies: 0-6

2020 Cat B Rookies: 0-3 | 2021 Cat B Rookies: 0-2

 

[eth-dog]

I think they might look to remove the rookie list and slowly bring in list reductions - 40 next year (perhaps with some provision for clubs with more than 40 already contracted), then 38.

That won't happen. Reducing list sizes is a very short term cost cutting measure. It won't be a gradual cut, it'll be one hard cut then, depending on how many they cut and what they decide, a slow expansion back to normal size.

 

[Davo-27]

Wasnt long ago list sizes were 56 players, now its 46?, i can see 40 being the new list size with 18 clubs and recession on the way, 35 might be too big of a cut I think?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

So TV revenue has had a hair cut, not much revenue from any other source, 2021 isnt going to be much better, clubs in the same boat & you've got a plan ... fair enough, I dont share your optimism.
Will you be paying your membership next year?

I'm not being optimistic, I think the cut to salary cap will be heavy and there will be years of operating at a loss. If you cut the cap 50% the contractual mechanisms don't change. The afl is stuck with existing contracts of players who are on their final one.

That doesn't mean the league goes bankrupt.

And also, yes. I'm in a pretty lucky position that my employment situation hasn't changed and is pretty certain not to. The majority I understand won't be.

 

[The Nostradamus]

40
Essentially scrapping the rookie list

 

[eth-dog]

40
Essentially scrapping the rookie list

Confirmed?

 

[The Nostradamus]

Confirmed?

Just whispers still

 

[Kwality]

Wasnt long ago list sizes were 56 players, now its 46?, i can see 40 being the new list size with 18 clubs and recession on the way, 35 might be too big of a cut I think?

Who is paying? Mums purse, nah !
No more dollars, the players take the pain as contracts are renewed?

 

[Davo-27]

Who is paying? Mums purse, nah !
No more dollars, the players take the pain as contracts are renewed?

Contracts will shrink, they already have, didn't they take a 50% pay cut or thereabouts this year, memberships will drop not just from recession and high unemployment but from the league not allowing full stadiums of supporters until possibly 2022?, I think they will manage it with lower contracts, but they still have the tv deal and got that extended so that's the AFL main income revenue, so they still have that to get them through the tough times.

 

[Kwality]

I'm not being optimistic, I think the cut to salary cap will be heavy and there will be years of operating at a loss. If you cut the cap 50% the contractual mechanisms don't change. The afl is stuck with existing contracts of players who are on their final one.

That doesn't mean the league goes bankrupt.

And also, yes. I'm in a pretty lucky position that my employment situation hasn't changed and is pretty certain not to. The majority I understand won't be.

I'm not suggesting the AFL will go bankrupt, but its income has virtually disappeared, & that has legal consequences for the AFL Commission & the directors of the footy clubs. There will be no ducking it at October 31, balance date.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I'm not suggesting the AFL will go bankrupt, but its income has virtually disappeared, & that has legal consequences for the AFL Commission & the directors of the footy clubs. There will be no ducking it at October 31, balance date.

There will be serious haircuts but that's why loan facilities exist

 

[scotteydog]

I think 35 is too short, means you have 13 player's in reserve? 38 or 40 for me is the middle ground.

 

[WWSD]

Is it really that difficult for the goons at AFL house to reach an agreement on list sizes?

 

[Kwality]

Is it really that difficult for the goons at AFL house to reach an agreement on list sizes?

When you see North players cut you have to ask who knows & who doesnt.

 

[The Nostradamus]

Think it will be 36 senior list and 4 rookies

Max of 40 on a list so down 4 list spots overall

 

[THE_GUN]

Think it will be 36 senior list and 4 rookies

Max of 40 on a list so down 4 list spots overall

Total Rubbish why they need to cut lists , They are effectively cutting 4 of the least paid players on the list to save $350k from a business that turns over 40-60 million. Specially in a year where the kids that are getting cut have had no chance to show anything
Crazy

 

[Virus]

In the NRL teams play two more games a season than sides do in the AFL. Sure they only require 13 on a field and 4 on a bench but they generally have 30 man squads. Unsure if it’s been announced but even this could be lowered next year.

Why should the AFL have 15 extra list spots to make up an extra 5 positions in a game (not to mention when 4 of those are on the interchange). It’s a joke.

36 with no rookies is the sweet spot. Could be the difference with keeping a couple guys loyal and will remove a lot of the dead weight dilution that lists have had since the two expansion clubs entered.

 

[THE_GUN]

In the NRL teams play two more games a season than sides do in the AFL. Sure they only require 13 on a field and 4 on a bench but they generally have 30 man squads. Unsure if it’s been announced but even this could be lowered next year.

Why should the AFL have 15 extra list spots to make up an extra 5 positions in a game (not to mention when 4 of those are on the interchange). It’s a joke.

36 with no rookies is the sweet spot. Could be the difference with keeping a couple guys loyal and will remove a lot of the dead weight dilution that lists have had since the two expansion clubs entered.

NRL is nowhere near as fast or as demanding on soft tissue type injuries also the afl team need to have virtually 2 teams due to development of young players
half the NRL players spend their time walking

 

[footyfan1978]

Wasnt long ago list sizes were 56 players, now its 46?, i can see 40 being the new list size with 18 clubs and recession on the way, 35 might be too big of a cut I think?

When was it ever 56?
I doubt there was actually a list maximum before the salary cap and draft era. When clubs used to have their senior team, reserve teams and under 19's team, you obviously needed three times 20 players to field those three teams each Saturday and I doubt there was any restriction on a player from under 19's being allowed to play in seniors if good enough. The last generation of players to grow up via that path would have been guys like Stephen Silvagni and then Ratten and Kouta at my own club. A lot of quality youngsters would have gone from under 19's to reserve to seniors in a few weeks like a Brian Wilson back in early 1980's or a Wayne Harmes or Tim Watson in late 1970's. I doubt there was an actual list maximum though. That would not have come in until around time of a salary cap in late 1980's which would also be when a yearly draft started to become the norm

 

[footyfan1978]

Think it will be 36 senior list and 4 rookies

Max of 40 on a list so down 4 list spots overall

I was reading up yesterday and it seems to me, next year they are running with maximum of 44 players on list , which includes the rookie list.
37 or 38 on primary list and 7 or 6 on rookie list for a total maximum of 44.
If you got 7 on rookie list it means you a club that had 3 category B rookies already and 4 category A on rookle list which leaves 37 for primary list in that situation.

44 still is low considering you need a reserve team each week for most AFL clubs. Most reserve teams are going to need 4 to 8 top up players from somewhere each weekend to field 22 in a reserves team. Victorian based reserve teams probably have to borrow 19 year olds from the NAB league each weekend to field a full reserve team.

 

[The Nostradamus]

I was reading up yesterday and it seems to me, next year they are running with maximum of 44 players on list , which includes the rookie list.
37 or 38 on primary list and 7 or 6 on rookie list for a total maximum of 44.
If you got 7 on rookie list it means you a club that had 3 category B rookies already and 4 category A on rookle list which leaves 37 for primary list in that situation.

44 still is low considering you need a reserve team each week for most AFL clubs. Most reserve teams are going to need 4 to 8 top up players from somewhere each weekend to field 22 in a reserves team. Victorian based reserve teams probably have to borrow 19 year olds from the NAB league each weekend to field a full reserve team.

44 is pretty much what it already is
Max of 40 on senior list 4 cat a rookies and 3 cat b rookies (but most clubs don’t utilise all cat b spots)

I’ve read 36 or 38 senior list, I anticipate it will be 36
rookie numbers would stay the same

 

[footyfan1978]

44 is pretty much what it already is

No, 47 is what is has been already as maximum recently.
Some clubs have had 6 rookie list players in category A and 3 Category B rookie list players and 38 on primary list for a total of 47 in recent times.
44 was more like the minimum of recent times like Crows and Richmond this season, just gone.. Gold Coast had exemption to go over 47 and had around 50 or so in total.
So it was possible to have up to 40 primary list players and 6 rookie list players or 38 on primary list, 6 on category A rookie list and 3 more on category B rookie list for maximum of 47 (except for Gold Coast)
Now the other 17 clubs will not be allowed to go over 38 on primary list or 6 on category A rookie list, so in reality the primary list has been cut down by 2 from 40 to 38 and the total rookie list spots has been been cut by a few too, so those 17 clubs can no longer run with 6 category A rookie list players and 3 category B rookie list players. The most you can have is 4 category A rookie list players and 3 category B rookie list players and if any club has that is also limits them to only 37 on primary list so the number of 44 in total is the new magic number maximum. 47 was it before this....
Gold Coast will be pro-rata limit for their exceptions.

AFL close to list size cuts as end of trades looms

AFL club lists sizes will be cut to a minimum of 37 and a maximum of 44 players - including all rookies – next year.

www.theage.com.au

 

[The Nostradamus]

Which clubs have 3 cat b rookies?

But I almost don’t even count cat b as part of the list sizes, they are slightly gimmicky

lists sizes restrictions will be More around senior lists and cat a rookies (Hence why I said currently 44 max atm between senior list and cat a Which will decrease after list reductions)

 

[Ash1337]

Rookies are payed lower than senior list players so more rookie players and less senior players are probably the go. Also they don't count to the TPP. It helps for the AFL too lower the cap without necessary having a big impact on player wages. The big reason the AFLPA don't want this is because the lower wage rookies are payed is barely enough to live on and I don't believe there is anyway for players to get more as a rookie.

 

[footyfan1978]

Rookies are payed lower than senior list players so more rookie players and less senior players are probably the go. Also they don't count to the TPP. It helps for the AFL too lower the cap without necessary having a big impact on player wages. The big reason the AFLPA don't want this is because the lower wage rookies are payed is barely enough to live on and I don't believe there is anyway for players to get more as a rookie.

I think what will happen in a few years is they will no longer call it a rookie list and instead have a Active List and Inactive List and the Inactive List will probably be similar types to one year contract rookie list types we see now but not be part of salary cap and the salary cap will be the Active List so I suspect in time it will become an Active List for salary cap of 35 players by middle of this decade and an Inactive List of 10 players outside the salary cap and guys on Inactive List can only play in senior team when an Active List player is on long term injury list. But in essence a club still has well over 40 players to call upon through out the season but the Inactive List guys can be easily poached mid season type trade or draft periods if other clubs willing to create space on their Active List to get an Inactive List player from a rival club with a multi year contract.
35 on Active List and 10 on Inactive List for total of 45 players each club seems what it will become and 44 for next season gives time for clubs to transition the old rookie list towards an Inactive List in a few years time. Chris Pelchen was talking about this type of thing 4 or 5 months back and think he on the money where it will head towards.

 

[Ash1337]

I think what will happen in a few years is they will no longer call it a rookie list and instead have a Active List and Inactive List and the Inactive List will probably be similar types to one year contract rookie list types we see now but not be part of salary cap and the salary cap will be the Active List so I suspect in time it will become an Active List for salary cap of 35 players by middle of this decade and an Inactive List of 10 players outside the salary cap and guys on Inactive List can only play in senior team when an Active List player is on long term injury list. But in essence a club still has well over 40 players to call upon through out the season but the Inactive List guys can be easily poached mid season type trade or draft periods if other clubs willing to create space on their Active List to get an Inactive List player from a rival club with a multi year contract.
35 on Active List and 10 on Inactive List for total of 45 players each club seems what it will become and 44 for next season gives time for clubs to transition the old rookie list towards and Inactive List in a few years time. Chris Pelchen was talking about this type of thing 4 or 5 months back and think he on the money where it will head towards.

I like that idea except if you have a Key f/d player out for only a month and your only backups are a developing youngster or a mature player on the inactive list who can slot in better. Also clubs with many short term injuries with players will be very disadvantaged.