Opinion Did Taranto and Hopper make a mistake leaving the Giants for Richmond?

[BF Tiger]

You don't understand the difference between present and past tense do you.

Richmond have 12 players from the 2020 GF named for this weekend. Geelong have 10.

It is 12-10 but Geelong have Gary Rohan listed as an emergency. But that's numbers are neither here nor there when compared to the quality of who is missing.

Richmond are missing Astbury, Grimes, Houli, Lambert, Castagna, Martin, Lynch, Riewoldt, Edwards and Cotchin.

Geelong are missing Taylor, Henderson, Selwood, Menegola, Dalhaus, O'Connor, Hawkins, Ablett, C.Guthrie, Parfitt and Simpson.

 

[Cleansweep17]

It is 12-10 but Geelong have Gary Rohan listed as an emergency. But that's numbers are neither here nor there when compared to the quality of who is missing.

Richmond are missing Astbury, Grimes, Houli, Lambert, Castagna, Martin, Lynch, Riewoldt, Edwards and Cotchin.

Geelong are missing Taylor, Henderson, Selwood, Menegola, Dalhaus, O'Connor, Hawkins, Ablett, C.Guthrie, Parfitt and Simpson.

Ablett wasn’t there

 

[Cleansweep17]

Injury trolling. Classy.

He wasn’t on the list in 2022 dude

 

[Cleansweep17]

Nice save.

Old mate mentioned Taylor & Henderson too...so as usual, it seems everyone understood except you.

I guess I got confused then my bad. I thought we were talking about player turnover since the last flag teams respectively.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

100% we’ll most likely get the rising star. Gotta get the picks in before Tassie comes. Clock is ticking but you go ahead and keep trying to compete

Think we're about to win that one this year?

We will, cheers.

 

[BF Tiger]

Think we're about to win that one this year?

We will, cheers.

<insert Bradbury gif>

 

[GhostofJimJess]

I'm led to believe by many posters on this site that neither of these fellas would currently be getting a senior game at the Giants.

That alone suggests they were both right to depart GWS.

 

[BF Tiger]

I'm led to believe by many posters on this site that neither of these fellas would currently be getting a senior game at the Giants.

That alone suggests they were both right to depart GWS.

This is sound logic. It's unusual on BigFooty.

 

[Mr Magic]

well they can be traded out if they want to and get better chances at other clubs for premierships.

It is not like Richmond have to hold them to their contracts because really we are looking to regenerate at the moment and refresh for a few years

Right now Melbourne has pick 7.

I would trade Hopper, Taranto, and Lynch to Melbourne for pick 7 and whatever, pay their salaries or part thereof

they can have a fair crack at Melbourne and see how they go if they want or continue to bum around at Tigerland

 

[Nicho50]

Geelong has 10 players from the 2020 GF playing this week compared to Richmond's 12. The tigers have turned over less players than Geelong.

Richmond relied too much on early draftees and then ignored youth development when they were competing for flags. Once the guns finished up there was no quality to come in and it all fell apart even though half the team is still premiership players.

Geelong was always developing talent from later in the draft so despite Ablett, Selwood, Hawkins, Taylor, Guthrie, etc not being there we're still looking to finish top 4 and have a crack this year after winning the flag in 2022. It's much more difficult but much more rewarding than just being gifted gun players for being shit.

Going to give you a bit of an education here because you seem to think Richmond was built from being shit and getting draft picks and Geelong has relied on developing late picks that is more rewarding which is complete bullshit if you don’t think other team do and have done the same thing.

Keep in mind Richmond made finals in 13,14,15,17,19,20 and 22 so it wasn’t as though it was just a quick finals run and done.

You say about lists and Geelong develop late picks here is Richmond’s profile for the premiership runs.

1st or 2nd picks that are Richmond OG and developed by us. Rance, Edwards, Riewoldt, Martin, Cotchin, Astbury, Ellis, Vlastin, Balta and Rioli.

Players that were recruited from other clubs that had instant success Lynch, Prestia, Nank and Caddy.

Grigg and Houli were with us for 5 years before the success. Taranto and Hopper have now come to the club.

Here is the interesting part about Geelongs superior and more rewarding development of picks. These players were Rookies or late picks for Richmond that ended up becoming premiership players and from memory most of these guys are in fact rookies. Broad, Grimes, Lambert, Castagna, Butler, McIntosh, Soldo, Baker and Pickett.

Whilst also in the frame competing for flags Geelong have had Cameron, Dangerfield, Rohan, Menegola, Bruhn, Bowes, Tuhoy, Ollie Henry, Stengle , Stanley, Cegler, Dalhouse and Higgins all come in from other clubs and Ablett returned from the Suns so your theory about Geelong focusing on developing late picks more so than other clubs or Richmond in particular in this case is false. Both clubs like many others have had really similar styles of the way the list has been shaped.

 

[DanA]

Going to give you a bit of an education here because you seem to think Richmond was built from being shit and getting draft picks and Geelong has relied on developing late picks that is more rewarding which is complete bullshit if you don’t think other team do and have done the same thing.

Keep in mind Richmond made finals in 13,14,15,17,19,20 and 22 so it wasn’t as though it was just a quick finals run and done.

You say about lists and Geelong develop late picks here is Richmond’s profile for the premiership runs.

1st or 2nd picks that are Richmond OG and developed by us. Rance, Edwards, Riewoldt, Martin, Cotchin, Astbury, Ellis, Vlastin, Balta and Rioli.

Players that were recruited from other clubs that had instant success Lynch, Prestia, Nank and Caddy.

Grigg and Houli were with us for 5 years before the success. Taranto and Hopper have now come to the club.

Here is the interesting part about Geelongs superior and more rewarding development of picks. These players were Rookies or late picks for Richmond that ended up becoming premiership players and from memory most of these guys are in fact rookies. Broad, Grimes, Lambert, Castagna, Butler, McIntosh, Soldo, Baker and Pickett.

Whilst also in the frame competing for flags Geelong have had Cameron, Dangerfield, Rohan, Menegola, Bruhn, Bowes, Tuhoy, Ollie Henry, Stengle , Stanley, Cegler, Dalhouse and Higgins all come in from other clubs and Ablett returned from the Suns so your theory about Geelong focusing on developing late picks more so than other clubs or Richmond in particular in this case is false. Both clubs like many others have had really similar styles of the way the list has been shaped.

Wait, the fours seasons between 07-11 Richmond finished 16th, 10th, 15th, 15th and that's in a then 16 man competition. That's a lot of draft capital which Geelong never had access too and right before the expansion teams picked the eyes out of the draft. We've been perennial finalist for the last 20 years. How is our list building the same?

Geelong did it different and it's not because we shyed away from trading in important players. It's because most pieces of draft or trade capital we've created by developing players from later picks and not bottoming out for four years.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Right now Melbourne has pick 7.

I would trade Hopper, Taranto, and Lynch to Melbourne for pick 7 and whatever, pay their salaries or part thereof

they can have a fair crack at Melbourne and see how they go if they want or continue to bum around at Tigerland

Idk if that’s a good idea we need some seniors in the team. We’ve cut pretty deep already.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Depends what you care about. It's either premierships or.........

 

[Nicho50]

Wait, the fours seasons between 07-11 Richmond finished 16th, 10th, 15th, 15th and that's in a then 16 man competition. That's a lot of draft capital which Geelong never had access too and right before the expansion teams picked the eyes out of the draft. We've been perennial finalist for the last 20 years. How is our list building the same?

Geelong did it different and it's not because we shyed away from trading in important players. It's because most pieces of draft or trade capital we've created by developing players from later picks and not bottoming out for four years.

I think you should look at those draft periods from 07 until now. Geelong have had a lot of first round misses but also recruited a lot of players from other clubs that were top 20 picks like Dangerfield, Henderson, Rohan, Caddy, Cameron.

So whilst you may not have got to pick many "top 10" you've recruited your fair share of them. Selwood at 7 to wasn't he? Ablett and Hawkins 2 all time greats as father sons.

If you actually look at those drafts you will find not only the tigers but a lot of other clubs have had just as much or more success than Geelong at developing late round picks or rookies into very good players and premiership players. For your Stewart, Henry, Close, O'Connor etc I can throw at you Broad, Grimes, Castagna, Butler, Lambert, Soldo, Baker , Pickett off the top of my head that were rookies or late picks so that side of it is not unique to Geelong.

The Geelong develop late picks better than others is a myth. Your recruiting profile is the same at most clubs but one thing Geelong has done better than most clubs is not let a mass exodus of experienced players go at the same time.

 

[DanA]

I think you should look at those draft periods from 07 until now. Geelong have had a lot of first round misses but also recruited a lot of players from other clubs that were top 20 picks like Dangerfield, Henderson, Rohan, Caddy, Cameron.

So whilst you may not have got to pick many "top 10" you've recruited your fair share of them. Selwood at 7 to wasn't he? Ablett and Hawkins 2 all time greats as father sons.

If you actually look at those drafts you will find not only the tigers but a lot of other clubs have had just as much or more success than Geelong at developing late round picks or rookies into very good players and premiership players. For your Stewart, Henry, Close, O'Connor etc I can throw at you Broad, Grimes, Castagna, Butler, v, Soldo, Baker , Pickett off the top of my head that were rookies or late picks so that side of it is not unique to Geelong.

The Geelong develop late picks better than others is a myth. Your recruiting profile is the same at most clubs but one thing Geelong has done better than most clubs is not let a mass exodus of experienced players go at the same tims.

I just think this is blatantly wrong.


We have six rookie selections that are 100 game players in our current side (Atkins, Z.Guthrie, Henry, Blicavs, Close, O'Connor). Tell me all the other teams with six active 100 game rookie draftees in their squad?

We have 3 developing players Oisin Mullin (10 games), Ted Clohesy (3 games) and the rising star elect Ollie Dempsey. Having two fringe contributors is fairly typical of any team, having a rookie rising star is rare.

And you can talk about all the top 20 picks we've traded in, but how we got them kinda matters.

• Gary Rohan was traded for a pick in the 60's.
• Josh Caddy was the compensation we got from losing Ablett
• We got Cameron from draft picks gained from losing Tim Kelly

Henderson and Dangerfield were the only legit ones on your list. Henderson was pick 16 as the first every future pick traded, and Dangerfield was traded with pick 9 the bulk of the trade following a rare finals miss from the Cats (we finished 10th). He was a steal but I think both Danger and Cameron at present might be the only restricted free agents that were required to be traded for.

There is a reason Geelong has been at the pointy end of the ladder for the last 20 years. It's because we've been very resourceful in both trade, and the draft. No myth in that.

 

[DanA]

It is 12-10 but Geelong have Gary Rohan listed as an emergency. But that's numbers are neither here nor there when compared to the quality of who is missing.

Richmond are missing Astbury, Grimes, Houli, Lambert, Castagna, Martin, Lynch, Riewoldt, Edwards and Cotchin.

Geelong are missing Taylor, Henderson, Selwood, Menegola, Dalhaus, O'Connor, Hawkins, Ablett, C.Guthrie, Parfitt and Simpson.

I don't follow. Is the implication that those Richmond players were better over the course of their careers? I think I could make an argument that the Geelong's players were better but if I'm honest I think it's much of a muchness. Regardless, the loss of your guys lead you to a historically bad season, Geelong finished top 4 again. The regeneration of Richmond is precisely why Hopper and Taranto picked the wrong teams. They could have had success if they picked better.

 

[Nicho50]

I just think this is blatantly wrong.


We have six rookie selections that are 100 game players in our current side (Atkins, Z.Guthrie, Henry, Blicavs, Close, O'Connor). Tell me all the other teams with six active 100 game rookie draftees in their squad?

We have 3 developing players Oisin Mullin (10 games), Ted Clohesy (3 games) and the rising star elect Ollie Dempsey. Having two fringe contributors is fairly typical of any team, having a rookie rising star is rare.

And you can talk about all the top 20 picks we've traded in, but how we got them kinda matters.

• Gary Rohan was traded for a pick in the 60's.
• Josh Caddy was the compensation we got from losing Ablett
• We got Cameron from draft picks gained from losing Tim Kelly

Henderson and Dangerfield were the only legit ones on your list. Henderson was pick 16 as the first every future pick traded, and Dangerfield was traded with pick 9 the bulk of the trade following a rare finals miss from the Cats (we finished 10th). He was a steal but I think both Danger and Cameron at present might be the only restricted free agents that were required to be traded for.

There is a reason Geelong has been at the pointy end of the ladder for the last 20 years. It's because we've been very resourceful in both trade, and the draft. No myth in that.

Again ignoring the fact other teams have success from the rookie list and late picks.

Like I said go over and look at the names from 07-24 plenty of misses and plenty of access to picks from 15-60 like other clubs. Your acting as though Geelong have this magical recruiting system that is superior to other clubs when in fact it isn’t and it’s very similar to what most clubs do in a list build.

Held together by senior players like Dangerfield, Hawkins, Cameron, Stewart no different than say peak Richmond held together by Jack, Cotch, Dusty and Rance with a lot of late picks and rookies around.

Majority of other clubs are built the same to.

Either way good luck in finals , great achievement for a top 4 finish again but you’ve gotta win the flag or it’s meaningless really.

 

[PhatBoy]

Again ignoring the fact other teams have success from the rookie list and late picks.

Like I said go over and look at the names from 07-24 plenty of misses and plenty of access to picks from 15-60 like other clubs. Your acting as though Geelong have this magical recruiting system that is superior to other clubs when in fact it isn’t and it’s very similar to what most clubs do in a list build.

Held together by senior players like Dangerfield, Hawkins, Cameron, Stewart no different than say peak Richmond held together by Jack, Cotch, Dusty and Rance with a lot of late picks and rookies around.

Majority of other clubs are built the same to.

Either way good luck in finals , great achievement for a top 4 finish again but you’ve gotta win the flag or it’s meaningless really.

If that’s the case, watching football is meaningless 95 per cent of the time. Why bother.

Of course every team wants to win the flag and their supporters want to do it.

The reason we are drawn to the whole culture of the game, though, is the week to week love of watching your side for two hours and hoping they will win. If they do that enough there’s a very big bonus prize at the end of it all that gives you a tremendous amount of bragging rights for 12 months.

Sure id love to win the flag this year but like most fans I didn’t give us a hope in hell so by winning 15 games I’ve already won as a fan. I get to look forward to at least two more chances to experience that roller coaster in the next month and if we don’t go any further, so be it. It doesn’t make the season meaningless.

 

[Mr Magic]

Idk if that’s a good idea we need some seniors in the team. We’ve cut pretty deep already.

nah,

trade Hopper, Taranto, Lynch for Melbournes first and a future first, pay salaries.

We have forward guys to cover, we have mids to cover like Ross, we are not winning anything anyway and the youngsters get more opportunity. We have plenty of other seniors, no need to suffocate some of our better players and starve them of cup opportunity

It is about winning premierships. Lynch Hopper, Taranto can't do it at RFC, may as well have a crack at Melbourne when they get their players back and primed

 

[GhostofJimJess]

nah,

trade Hopper, Taranto, Lynch for Melbournes first and a future first, pay salaries.

We have forward guys to cover, we have mids to cover like Ross, we are not winning anything anyway and the youngsters get more opportunity. We have plenty of other seniors, no need to suffocate some of our better players and starve them of cup opportunity

It is about winning premierships. Lynch Hopper, Taranto can't do it at RFC, may as well have a crack at Melbourne when they get their players back and primed

Kosi ???

Don't make me laugh. We don't have cover for Lynch, which is very evident from this season, and our midfield would be virtually non-existent without TT and Hops.

With the expected departures of a whole lot of experience and leadership, we need Taranto, Hopper and Lynch way more than they need us atm.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

If that’s the case, watching football is meaningless 95 per cent of the time. Why bother.

Of course every team wants to win the flag and their supporters want to do it.

The reason we are drawn to the whole culture of the game, though, is the week to week love of watching your side for two hours and hoping they will win. If they do that enough there’s a very big bonus prize at the end of it all that gives you a tremendous amount of bragging rights for 12 months.

Sure id love to win the flag this year but like most fans I didn’t give us a hope in hell so by winning 15 games I’ve already won as a fan. I get to look forward to at least two more chances to experience that roller coaster in the next month and if we don’t go any further, so be it. It doesn’t make the season meaningless.

There was a decent sized part of me that was quite happy the Cats won the 2022 flag, as it showed that premierships can be won without bottoming out, academies and massive father/son input.

Unfortunately we will now have to rely upon that first category (bottoming out) as we start preparing for our next flag. I was very much hoping to avoid it, but the reality is that it's probably the most common system nowadays.

 

[Cleansweep17]

nah,

trade Hopper, Taranto, Lynch for Melbournes first and a future first, pay salaries.

We have forward guys to cover, we have mids to cover like Ross, we are not winning anything anyway and the youngsters get more opportunity. We have plenty of other seniors, no need to suffocate some of our better players and starve them of cup opportunity

It is about winning premierships. Lynch Hopper, Taranto can't do it at RFC, may as well have a crack at Melbourne when they get their players back and primed

Fair, the only thing I’m worried about is just throwing in kids that will get belted every week like North. In every job you need a mentor to learn.

 

[Thuggee_Cult]

As an aside, I heard David King refer to these two and Dion Prestia

3

Dion Prestia

Age

32

Ht

175cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

24.1

5star

K

12.7

5star

HB

11.4

5star

M

3.1

3star

T

4.4

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

21.2

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

10.8

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

4.2

5star

CL

3.2

4star

D

12.8

4star

K

6.0

3star

HB

6.8

5star

M

3.2

4star

T

3.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

as the Punt Road Butchers on SEN this morning, did make me larf

In all seriousness though
a. these two wouldn't get a game at GWS at the moment
b. they are the least of Richmonds problems right now, their list hasn't even reached rock bottom yet and they are stuck with these two in the short to mid term as the Tigers don't look to have any decent young mids coming through.

In fairness Taranto did win a B&F and has been well off this year due to injury and form, but I think he will bounce back.

A couple of years ago I was hoping that we would go after Hopper as I thought we needed some stronger bodies after the '22 grand final debacle, but he is genuinely awful, he could be delisted in the next couple of years.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

nah,

trade Hopper, Taranto, Lynch for Melbournes first and a future first, pay salaries.

We have forward guys to cover, we have mids to cover like Ross, we are not winning anything anyway and the youngsters get more opportunity. We have plenty of other seniors, no need to suffocate some of our better players and starve them of cup opportunity

It is about winning premierships. Lynch Hopper, Taranto can't do it at RFC, may as well have a crack at Melbourne when they get their players back and primed

You might not be winning anything, but it'll hurt the kids if they're not being protected and managed with senior bodies around them.

Do you reckon Carlton, North, & Melbourne just somehow picked the wrong guy every single time for years on end at the draft? Or do you think development played a part?

Likewise, do you think Hawthorn, Geelong, & Sydney just always pick the right guy late in the piece, or do you think development plays a part?

You're already losing Dusty, Baker, Pickett, Rioli, & Bolton in all likelihood. You add Lynch, Taranto, & Hopper to that, and who's left?

Who's driving the standards at training and showing the kids what it takes? Who's coaching them on the field? Who's protecting them from getting smashed physically for their first 4-5 years?

It's a surefire way to ruin the promise of any youngsters. You still need somebody around who's actually been there and done that, and knows what he's doing to guide them.

 

[Hinkley29]

Again ignoring the fact other teams have success from the rookie list and late picks.

Like I said go over and look at the names from 07-24 plenty of misses and plenty of access to picks from 15-60 like other clubs. Your acting as though Geelong have this magical recruiting system that is superior to other clubs when in fact it isn’t and it’s very similar to what most clubs do in a list build.

Held together by senior players like Dangerfield, Hawkins, Cameron, Stewart no different than say peak Richmond held together by Jack, Cotch, Dusty and Rance with a lot of late picks and rookies around.

Majority of other clubs are built the same to.

Either way good luck in finals , great achievement for a top 4 finish again but you’ve gotta win the flag or it’s meaningless really.

Clearly all the season between 1980 and 2017 were meaningless for Richmond supporters. What a colossal waste of time and energy on a meaningless pursuit.

Premiership or bust is a philosophy only espoused by teams who are in the process of tanking.