Dogs Owned By Cats Yet Again - 94-66 Loss

[Norm De Guerre]

I don't know why you Bulldogs fans are so insistent on Naughton as a forward.

This is how you're going to begin a post on our board?

Sigh!

Because he has kicked 44 goals for the season.

You say it's because you need him there for structure or whatever, or that your forward line hinges on him... he's just one player. You didn't have trouble scoring goals in the game he missed last week. For all the hype he gets, he seems like a very hot/cold player as a forward and gets shut down by the top defences in the

We say it because its true. We are a team that has struggled for a decade to find a player to play as a forward focal point. Im not sure how you can claim that we say this for "structure or whatever" as if that is an insignificant aspect of the modern game. We say it precisely because of Naughtons ability to bring it to our side with ability to mark the contested ball and kick goals . Lets not forget we are talking about a guy who has taken the 4th most contested marks in the competition.

Do you know where 8 out of 10 of the other players on that list play? No of course you dont. Let me spell it out for you. IN. THE. FORWARD. LINE.

The other is of course Max Gawn who plays wherever he likes. Naughton is "hot and Cold" precisely because until JUH arrived on the stage last week he we literally the only reliable aerial threat we had in the forward half, thus he gets double and triple teamed by teams that use dubious tactics to stop his run and jump at the ball.

To pass that role onto JUH now would be a decision as dumb as yours when you decided to come in here and tell us your thoughts.

As for last week. Aaron Naughton played and kicked 2 goals.

Sigh!

I would think your defence is in far more dire need of a good key defender. If guys like Cordy, Gardner and Hannan are playing as key pivots in defence, there is probably a much bigger hole in defence than their would be up forward if Naughton wasn't there...

Thanks for bringing your incredible insight to the attention of this board on a subject that we are well aware of and have discussed ad nauseam... If only you'd bothered to look.

Guys like Cordy and Gardner are clearly not May and Lever, but the reality is that they kept the guys currently 2nd and 3rd on the Coleman to two goals each last night when most would've expected them to cash in. They also did this in the face of a deluge of Geelong forward entries and the shankiness of a rusty Daniel and a player with no idea how to play as a defender in Hannan. This was on Beveridge and the match Committee.

The game wasn't lost because Naughton had an off night, wasn't played at CHB or because Hawkins or Cameron got off the chain. It was because our midfield last control of the game for an entire quarter and the Cats piled on 8 goals.

Sigh!

 

[doggies ftw]

Just occasionally it would be nice for him to clog space inside the contest instead of backing out of it looking for a handball recieve. We need the additional defensive pressure badly in there

****ing this. I’m bloody sick of seeing him waltz forward for a handball receive. It’s bullshit, yeah it’s cool to see your ruckman streaming towards goal out of the middle every once in a while but **** me you’re a ruckman. That’s not your job. Put your bloody body on the line & help out your midfielders defensively. That is your job once the ball hits the deck you’re not a flipping midfielder.

There’s a reason our midfield plays better to a genuine ruckman who brings a defensive influence and allows them the luxury to focus on their own games.

I will flipping die on this hill

 

[josh the gent]

What? We outscored them in both the first and last quarters.

The third quarter was 50-3, the rest of the game was an arm wrestle against the best team in the league.

In Geelong as well.

We might actually be turning a corner!

Tigers win today didn’t help, but Blues loss to Crows means they’re also looking dicey.

Next week is absolutely critical - beat Freo then win our last 2 (gws and Hawks) and i think we make 7th/8th…

If we pick up form from all of this, maybe we can hit peak performance in September!

 

[VogonProsthetnic]

Would be playing Cleary ahead of Hannan he hasn't been giving anything worthwhile, Cleary will improve with games at the level

What about playing McComb ahead of 2 premiership players - Hunter and McLean. Why??

You would think they might have been handy in the third quarter.

 

[Next Waiting]

This is how you're going to begin a post on our board?

Sigh!

Because he has kicked 44 goals for the season.

We say it because its true. We are a team that has struggled for a decade to find a player to play as a forward focal point. Im not sure how you can claim that we say this for "structure or whatever" as if that is an insignificant aspect of the modern game. We say it precisely because of Naughtons ability to bring it to our side with ability to mark the contested ball and kick goals . Lets not forget we are talking about a guy who has taken the 4th most contested marks in the competition.

Do you know where 8 out of 10 of the other players on that list play? No of course you dont. Let me spell it out for you. IN. THE. FORWARD. LINE.

The other is of course Max Gawn who plays wherever he likes. Naughton is "hot and Cold" precisely because until JUH arrived on the stage last week he we literally the only reliable aerial threat we had in the forward half, thus he gets double and triple teamed by teams that use dubious tactics to stop his run and jump at the ball.

To pass that role onto JUH now would be a decision as dumb as yours when you decided to come in here and tell us your thoughts.

As for last week. Aaron Naughton played and kicked 2 goals.

Sigh!

Thanks for bringing your incredible insight to the attention of this board on a subject that we are well aware of and have discussed ad nauseam... If only you'd bothered to look.

Guys like Cordy and Gardner are clearly not May and Lever, but the reality is that they kept the guys currently 2nd and 3rd on the Coleman to two goals each last night when most would've expected them to cash in. They also did this in the face of a deluge of Geelong forward entries and the shankiness of a rusty Daniel and a player with no idea how to play as a defender in Hannan. This was on Beveridge and the match Committee.

The game wasn't lost because Naughton had an off night, wasn't played at CHB or because Hawkins or Cameron got off the chain. It was because our midfield last control of the game for an entire quarter and the Cats piled on 8 goals.

Sigh!

I don't think the idea of Naughton back can or should be discounted for the rest of this year. I'm not talking about next year when, who knows, we may have traded for or secured a decent KPF through some means or another, and in all likelihood he's a full time forward again.

But, in the present, whether it's back for some, most or all of the game is up for discussion because, as was clear to all of us ... again ... on Saturday night, we are particularly vulnerable to long runs against us out of the centre square from CBs. Naughton, IMO, represents some chance of getting to and contesting a kick inside our defensive 50 out of one of those CB capitulations. A better chance than both Cordy and Keath under any circumstances I would suggest. Perhaps even our best chance or only chance.

We all hope that those runs don't eventuate, but if they do and the ruck/midfield combo is unable to stop it or pressure a kick I50 enough at source, our next best chance of defending it is Naughton back IMO. I don't think we should deny ourselves the best opportunity (which may only be a 5 to 10% better chance) of defending those runs in the back 6 with the best talent available in order to save or redeem the present opportunity of playing in finals and maybe even winning one or more.

As someone else mentioned, 2 of those CB capitulations in a row should trigger a change up/response to stem the bleeding and this would be mine if all else is failing.

Naughts is not the only part of a possible solution. A physically combative ruckman would help as would a harder and tougher for longer mindset from the majority of midfielders and on-ballers who allow these runs to happen. But we all know that.

 

[Some Idiot]

I don't know why you Bulldogs fans are so insistent on Naughton as a forward.

You say it's because you need him there for structure or whatever, or that your forward line hinges on him... he's just one player. You didn't have trouble scoring goals in the game he missed last week. For all the hype he gets, he seems like a very hot/cold player as a forward and gets shut down by the top defences in the league.

I would think your defence is in far more dire need of a good key defender. If guys like Cordy, Gardner and Hannan are playing as key pivots in defence, there is probably a much bigger hole in defence than their would be up forward if Naughton wasn't there...

In the words of Damien Hardwick, Jesus Christ wouldn't be able to stop an in-form Aaron Naughton. That's why

 

[dogwatch]

I haven’t had a chance to watch the game yet but I read the entire game day thread (LOL) and the post mortems as well as one or two media reports on the match. So I’m now a subject matter expert.

I don’t rate us much of a flag chance but still reckon we could win three straight from here and fall over the line for a finals berth. Here’s some of my reasoning:

• Yesterday we lost by 28 points.
• Oliver G’s (greatly appreciated) stats tell us that the expected margin was only 20 points.
• We won two of the four quarters. In fact we won three of the quarters by a net margin of 19 points. It was just one horrendous team-fade of a third quarter that lost us the match.
• We were playing at Kardinia Park where the Cats rarely lose. Most of the comments I read here suggest they are about 3 goals worse at the MCG and at least that much at Marvel.
• So on expected score, if you take out the home ground advantage we pretty much squared it with the flag favourites. Not a bad level to be at and surely no cause for wrist-slitting gloom.
• And that’s before we consider the possibility - however remote and wistful - that we might actually find a way to stop these demonstrably catastrophic run-ons that opposition sides have been getting against us.
• All this was coming off a magnificent effort the previous week to knock of our recent nemesis the Demons. A slight let down was almost inevitable.
• We held two of the league’s power forwards to a total of 4 goals. That’s below their season average and any of us would have taken that if offered it before the first bounce.
• Daniel was clearly rusty and played a poor game.
• Bruce can only improve.
• Naughton had a rare goalless game (only his second for the season).
• Treloar was out but should be back by Rd 22 if not this week.
• Geelong’s run-on coincided with an injury to a dominant Bont - it quelled his influence and his ability to arrest their surge.
• Nobody else except maybe Richards played above their normal level.

Look I know all that may be seen as hopelessly optimistic but you have to admit there is some logic to it.

We are always so fickle as a bunch of supporters. We go from thinking we are world beaters one week to thinking we are total pretenders the next. In reality most of us had written off this game anyway (no matter who we officially tipped) and a 20 point losing margin would have been about right (I tipped -23).

We will go into the next three games as favourites. There’s a reasonable chance we will end up dropping one … but win all 3 and we are playing finals.

Go Dogs!

 

[dogwatch]

it’s disturbing reading the reports on English. Is he still recovering from concussion or is this his actual level? Has he reached his career peak as a tap ruckman? (He is excellent around the ground of course.)

I’m starting to think that he’s not our long term ruck solution at all. I think it’s Darcy. But he’s probably a good two years away from being able to hold his own and maybe four years from being a force as our number one ruck.

If that’s correct then English might just be a stop gap until that time and will need some support. That support might come from Darcy himself as the number two ruck, just like his Dad served an apprenticeship under Scott Wynd.

What happens to English after that? Do we offer him a Paul Salmon type of role as a tall forward who relieves Darcy from time to time? Maybe. Bruce will have retired by then. Or if Timmy insists on being the number one ruck do we find him a new club … for a good price?

Contrary to our initial reaction the relatively short 2-year extension announced recently might play more into the club’s hands than Timmy’s.

 

[Next Waiting]

• Geelong’s run-on coincided with an injury to a dominant Bont - it quelled his influence and his ability to arrest their surge.
• Nobody else except maybe Richards played above their normal level.

Look I know all that may be seen as hopelessly optimistic but you have to admit there is some logic to it.

We are always so fickle as a bunch of supporters. We go from thinking we are world beaters one week to thinking we are total pretenders the next. In reality most of us had written off this game anyway (no matter who we officially tipped) and a 20 point losing margin would have been about right (I tipped -23).

We will go into the next three games as favourites. There’s a reasonable chance we will end up dropping one … but win all 3 and we are playing finals.

Go Dogs!

That's true it was around about that time. Geelong's midfield also had a good hard look at themselves at half time and collectively decided they were going to go hard and we were found wanting, very wanting.

But the want can be fixed if the players can find it within themselves. It has to be fixed because there will be a next time.

The first quarter was fantastic for us. Pretty much everything went right. Good ball movement and clean finishing. The Cats players looked a bit bewildered actually.

But then they found their composure and motivation and challenged us, as you would or should expect. It's disappointing our players haven't been rising to those kind of challenges in recent times. It's not as if it shouldn't be anticipated and the game can be gone before you know it if you don't respond.

I hope that our ruck/midfield find (quickly) the determination and persistence required to compete with and defend against the better teams for longer, more than I hope to see the astronaut in the backline

 

[Next Waiting]

it’s disturbing reading the reports on English. Is he still recovering from concussion or is this his actual level? Has he reached his career peak as a tap ruckman? (He is excellent around the ground of course.)

I’m starting to think that he’s not our long term ruck solution at all. I think it’s Darcy. But he’s probably a good two years away from being able to hold his own and maybe four years from being a force as our number one ruck.

If that’s correct then English might just be a stop gap until that time and will need some support. That support might come from Darcy himself as the number two ruck, just like his Dad served an apprenticeship under Scott Wynd.

What happens to English after that? Do we offer him a Paul Salmon type of role as a tall forward who relieves Darcy from time to time? Maybe. Bruce will have retired by then. Or if Timmy insists on being the number one ruck do we find him a new club … for a good price?

Contrary to our initial reaction the relatively short 2-year extension announced recently might play more into the club’s hands than Timmy’s.

How do we know this to be true? Is there a record of him saying/stating this or is it BF speculation that has become accepted as fact? Genuinely don't know the answer.

 

[dogwatch]

If it was just a case of moving chess pieces around I’d consider the idea of moving Naughton back. But it’s not.

After playing his junior years as a defender and playing a season in that role at the WB, Bevo tapped him on the shoulder and told him he’s a forward. A shock to him at first but a challenge he has taken on and he has learned his new role.

What message are we sending if we say the last four years of development have mostly been wasted … looks like you’re a defender after all?

Unless it comes from Naughton it’s a move that might see him looking for a new home.

Besides I’m yet to be convinced that taking a 50 goal+ forward out of the forward line is going to be a net gain, even if he’s pretty good as a defender.

 

[dogwatch]

How do we know this to be true? Is there a record of him saying/stating this or is it BF speculation that has become accepted as fact? Genuinely don't know the answer.

Nor do I. Just considering it as a possible outcome, and yes, it’s only based on stuff I’ve read here.

Nice to know we wouldn’t be over a barrel though.

 

[Next Waiting]

If it was just a case of moving chess pieces around I’d consider the idea of moving Naughton back. But it’s not.

After playing his junior years as a defender and playing a season in that role at the WB, Bevo tapped him on the shoulder and told him he’s a forward. A shock to him at first but a challenge he has taken on and he has learned his new role.

What message are we sending if we say the last four years of development have mostly been wasted … looks like you’re a defender after all?

Unless it comes from Naughton it’s a move that might see him looking for a new home.

Besides I’m yet to be convinced that taking a 50 goal+ forward out of the forward line is going to be a net gain, even if he’s pretty good as a defender.

My view is evolving to a situational one and in that context I don't think you can rule it out and I'd be disappointed if Naughts did.

Here we are, in the present season, with potentially an opportunity to play finals and should that happen, we'd want to progress as far as we could. But the spectre of game changing runs against us out of centre bounces looms large again. The core of the problem lies with the ruck and midfield. But Naughts could offer some mitigation down back when these runs get started and is well equipped to play a part in arresting the slide. He can do SFA up forward to stop it.

It's a team game. Offer what you can when you can to get over the line. Or, as they say down Essendon way, whatever it takes.

 

[Deadly Darcy]

I think the concussion issues English deals with are underestimated in here. It took him ages to find his form again last time this happened and whether it’s confidence or residual impact there is no way we have the same ruckman we did before his head issues. Hopefully he continues to get back to his best.

Our midfield is basically formed of mid-attack players and we don’t seem to have any mid-defenders. Sam Mitchell gave a fabulous interview on the weekend talking about team balance and he was saying the attacking mids are great but you have to balance the centre with genuine defensive mids (which he classed himself as in his playing career). We are also a bull short - Libba is great but Smith, Bont, Treloar and Macrae are all accumulators or classy finishes and we either don’t use Dunks enough or he is overrated as an extractor. I’d be prioritising a bull mid as an early draft pick in the coming years. If we could get Logue for our first rounder and Liam Jones

19

Liam Jones

Age

33

Ht

199cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.4

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

134.5

2star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.1

3star

HB

1.4

1star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.4

2star

MG

116.3

2star

D

9.4

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

I’d definately look for a midfield bull for the 2023 draft.

 

[_Mike_]

I haven’t had a chance to watch the game yet

Watch the game, compare the 1st 1/2 to the 2nd half.
Once you see the rollover of the 3rd qtr it might make it clearer as to why so many were pissed at how the game played out.

 

[wayniac]

We lack pace in our midfield. Once opposition get a run on, we are incapable of stopping them.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Our midfield is basically formed of mid-attack players and we don’t seem to have any mid-defenders. Sam Mitchell gave a fabulous interview on the weekend talking about team balance and he was saying the attacking mids are great but you have to balance the centre with genuine defensive mids (which he classed himself as in his playing career). We are also a bull short - Libba is great but Smith, Bont, Treloar and Macrae are all accumulators or classy finishes and we either don’t use Dunks enough or he is overrated as an extractor.

I've suggested before but I'd be very interested to see how Baz would go given a run-with or tagging role. He has the pace and aggression to do it and I'd suggest his attacking instincts would mean he'd still get plenty of it himself. Would force him to be more defensive and balance our midfield better

 

[TiAn_]

How do we know this to be true? Is there a record of him saying/stating this or is it BF speculation that has become accepted as fact? Genuinely don't know the answer.

A few things, it was rumoured in media last year English was unhappy with his role (as a forward) and other clubs made inquiries. Then Bev confirmed in a presser earlier this year that English had stated a preference to play in the ruck and the club was accomodating that.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Yeah I recall Bevo mentioning it too in presser - was something like "And Tim wants be a Number 1 Ruck"

 

[TiAn_]

Yeah I recall Bevo mentioning it too in presser - was something like "And Tim wants be a Number 1 Ruck"

Yeah, it was in the context of how we would go about replacing Bruce and whether English was an option, IIRC.

 

[Sentinel]

• We won two of the four quarters. In fact we won three of the quarters by a net margin of 19 points. It was just one horrendous team-fade of a third quarter that lost us the match.

I would say it was more than just the disastrous 3rd quarter alone. Geelong were well on top from about halfway through the 2nd quarter to around halfway through the last.

 

[samDD]

In the words of Damien Hardwick, Jesus Christ wouldn't be able to stop an in-form Aaron Naughton. That's why

Well, he's been stopped a fair few times this year.
He was stopped by Steven May on one leg in last year's Grand Final.

Personally, I'd rather have consistency as a defender than hot/cold performances as a forward.
Believe it or not, defenders can have the description of "unstoppable" too, just ask Alex Rance, or Jeremy McGovern at his peak.

 

[Shacf501]

I haven’t had a chance to watch the game yet but I read the entire game day thread (LOL) and the post mortems as well as one or two media reports on the match. So I’m now a subject matter expert.

I don’t rate us much of a flag chance but still reckon we could win three straight from here and fall over the line for a finals berth. Here’s some of my reasoning:

• Yesterday we lost by 28 points.
• Oliver G’s (greatly appreciated) stats tell us that the expected margin was only 20 points.
• We won two of the four quarters. In fact we won three of the quarters by a net margin of 19 points. It was just one horrendous team-fade of a third quarter that lost us the match.
• We were playing at Kardinia Park where the Cats rarely lose. Most of the comments I read here suggest they are about 3 goals worse at the MCG and at least that much at Marvel.
• So on expected score, if you take out the home ground advantage we pretty much squared it with the flag favourites. Not a bad level to be at and surely no cause for wrist-slitting gloom.
• And that’s before we consider the possibility - however remote and wistful - that we might actually find a way to stop these demonstrably catastrophic run-ons that opposition sides have been getting against us.
• All this was coming off a magnificent effort the previous week to knock of our recent nemesis the Demons. A slight let down was almost inevitable.
• We held two of the league’s power forwards to a total of 4 goals. That’s below their season average and any of us would have taken that if offered it before the first bounce.
• Daniel was clearly rusty and played a poor game.
• Bruce can only improve.
• Naughton had a rare goalless game (only his second for the season).
• Treloar was out but should be back by Rd 22 if not this week.
• Geelong’s run-on coincided with an injury to a dominant Bont - it quelled his influence and his ability to arrest their surge.
• Nobody else except maybe Richards played above their normal level.

Look I know all that may be seen as hopelessly optimistic but you have to admit there is some logic to it.

We are always so fickle as a bunch of supporters. We go from thinking we are world beaters one week to thinking we are total pretenders the next. In reality most of us had written off this game anyway (no matter who we officially tipped) and a 20 point losing margin would have been about right (I tipped -23).

We will go into the next three games as favourites. There’s a reasonable chance we will end up dropping one … but win all 3 and we are playing finals.

Go Dogs!

Agree, but these full quarter fadeouts are consistent and just don't magically fix themselves. I think most people are frustrated because it happened to us in the biggest game of the year last year and has consistently cost us games this year. It's not like a 2 goal or 3 goal turn around its going from competitive to pathetic and disinterested in the space of a half time break. Our leaders and midfield engine consistently show a lack of energy and desire when this is happening and to me that's what is concerning. They obviously feel no pressure on their spots as it is happening time and time again and they continually get a game the following week.

 

[BEaston]

Naughton and Jamarra's forward craft is night and day. I've said it repeatedly, but Naughton lives off his athleticism as a forward. Once that's taken away he doesn't really have any options to impact the game.

After wanting him dropped this week, I thought Williams' game was pretty good. Well done to him.

 

[goodcop badcop]

I think the concussion issues English deals with are underestimated in here. It took him ages to find his form again last time this happened and whether it’s confidence or residual impact there is no way we have the same ruckman we did before his head issues. Hopefully he continues to get back to his best.

Our midfield is basically formed of mid-attack players and we don’t seem to have any mid-defenders. Sam Mitchell gave a fabulous interview on the weekend talking about team balance and he was saying the attacking mids are great but you have to balance the centre with genuine defensive mids (which he classed himself as in his playing career). We are also a bull short - Libba is great but Smith, Bont, Treloar and Macrae are all accumulators or classy finishes and we either don’t use Dunks enough or he is overrated as an extractor. I’d be prioritising a bull mid as an early draft pick in the coming years. If we could get Logue for our first rounder and Liam Jones I’d definately look for a midfield bull for the 2023 draft.

We have West as a bull mid, we just choose not to play him in the midfield. I think that has to change as we need some more physical types running through there.

Bont is very underrated defensively. His pressure acts are good and he's currently top 20 in the AFL for tackles per game.